Hi!
We are playing a what if scenario with Rick, and we deceided to publish our clash. I play the germans.
Some history changes:
Germany turned to Britain after the fall of France. The air battle was a big succses, but before the invasion the brit's were ready to accept the changed situation on the mainland so we signed peace with Great Britain. In late 40 generals made a bloodless coup against Hitler as they realised he got way to sadistic and short sighted (he wanted to attack Russia!), so after that he was only a puppet in the hand of the moderate generals(very unlikely, but I like human stories and hate the attrocities of hitler). The killing of the people in the camps stopped and they were closed. Negations started with France to allow the authority of the Petain regime over a larger territory of France. The size of the werhmacht were drastically cut down. It seemed that everything could be solved slowly, when in an absolute surprise in a 42 mid may morning the red army attacked the demobilizing german army, with the clear goal of destroying Germany. The great patriotic war of Germany started:
In the first turn the bolschevik tank armies delivered a devastating blow in the middle and in the north. But the red air force was decesively beaten by the Luftwaffe in the first air fights, so the tank armies had no air support. But even without air support the tank armies crushed the under strength opposing infantry korpses. At the end of the first turn several infantry korpses were surrounded in the Tilsit area (they were never rescued as 3 tank army held the outer line of encirclement). In the middle the the entire army group mitte were cut off from supply by the overly brave soviet tank armies. In my first turn my little panzer forces cut of the tank armies in the middle and opened the supply lines, but they were to weak to surrender them. The Luftwaffe enjoys a complete air supriority after the first turn. The weather was very kind to mother germany in this game as there was several weeks of mud after the first turn, which allowed me to get in reinforcements, and starve the encircled tank armies (of course this was doom my encircled infanty corpses, but it was an acceptable deal). Total war was decleared, and panthers and tigers were rushed to service. When the clear weather arrived in june there was a total satus quo in the ground, and the Luftwaffe ruled the skies. In the summer of 42 the werhmacht captured Lvov but only after a failed to ambitiuos attack in which several soviet armies were encircled, but the counterstrike by the bolscheviks destroyed a full strength panzer korps, and freed the encircled troops. Now we write 43 ferbruary and we have a standing war in which I make small attacks, but the summer gonna be fun as I will have my panzers rearmed with panthers and the soviet air foce slowly awekening. After this we gonna write detailed reports about our war if anybody interested. Losses are so far:
German Soviet
Inf 13777 17765
Afv 3017 8025
Guns 8670 12693
Airplane 6225 12870
Great patriotic war (german version)
1943 03.05.
Blizzard.
The red army has thrown back an infantry korps near Rumania. Casaulties were quite heavy, but the front stayed intact. The 4 ss panzer korps repulsed an great attack near Tilsit. The SS panzers wait for the calmer weather to continue on their quest to liberate Tilsit, the place where so many infantrymen died or suffered the even worst surrender to the bolscheviks in the begining of the war. No movement by german troops this turn, and the luftwaffe stayed down to avoid large readiness drops. Lenningrad was vistited by our bombers though.
O.K.H.
Blizzard.
The red army has thrown back an infantry korps near Rumania. Casaulties were quite heavy, but the front stayed intact. The 4 ss panzer korps repulsed an great attack near Tilsit. The SS panzers wait for the calmer weather to continue on their quest to liberate Tilsit, the place where so many infantrymen died or suffered the even worst surrender to the bolscheviks in the begining of the war. No movement by german troops this turn, and the luftwaffe stayed down to avoid large readiness drops. Lenningrad was vistited by our bombers though.
O.K.H.
Sounds intresting.Is this scenario posted for download any where?
If not could you please send me a copy?
varjager@hotmail.com
If not could you please send me a copy?
varjager@hotmail.com
Tom1939,Originally posted by Tom1939:
Hi!
We are playing a what if scenario with Rick, and we deceided to publish our clash. I play the germans.
Some history changes:
Germany turned to Britain after the fall of France. The air battle was a big succses, but before the invasion the brit's were ready to accept the changed situation on the mainland so we signed peace with Great Britain. In late 40 generals made a bloodless coup against Hitler as they realised he got way to sadistic and short sighted (he wanted to attack Russia!), so after that he was only a puppet in the hand of the moderate generals(very unlikely, but I like human stories and hate the attrocities of hitler). The killing of the people in the camps stopped and they were closed. Negations started with France to allow the authority of the Petain regime over a larger territory of France. The size of the werhmacht were drastically cut down. It seemed that everything could be solved slowly, when in an absolute surprise in a 42 mid may morning the red army attacked the demobilizing german army, with the clear goal of destroying Germany. The great patriotic war of Germany started:
In the first turn the bolschevik tank armies delivered a devastating blow in the middle and in the north. But the red air force was decesively beaten by the Luftwaffe in the first air fights, so the tank armies had no air support. But even without air support the tank armies crushed the under strength opposing infantry korpses. At the end of the first turn several infantry korpses were surrounded in the Tilsit area (they were never rescued as 3 tank army held the outer line of encirclement). In the middle the the entire army group mitte were cut off from supply by the overly brave soviet tank armies. In my first turn my little panzer forces cut of the tank armies in the middle and opened the supply lines, but they were to weak to surrender them. The Luftwaffe enjoys a complete air supriority after the first turn. The weather was very kind to mother germany in this game as there was several weeks of mud after the first turn, which allowed me to get in reinforcements, and starve the encircled tank armies (of course this was doom my encircled infanty corpses, but it was an acceptable deal). Total war was decleared, and panthers and tigers were rushed to service. When the clear weather arrived in june there was a total satus quo in the ground, and the Luftwaffe ruled the skies. In the summer of 42 the werhmacht captured Lvov but only after a failed to ambitiuos attack in which several soviet armies were encircled, but the counterstrike by the bolscheviks destroyed a full strength panzer korps, and freed the encircled troops. Now we write 43 ferbruary and we have a standing war in which I make small attacks, but the summer gonna be fun as I will have my panzers rearmed with panthers and the soviet air foce slowly awekening. After this we gonna write detailed reports about our war if anybody interested. Losses are so far:
German Soviet
Inf 13777 17765
Afv 3017 8025
Guns 8670 12693
Airplane 6225 12870
I'm affraid there is a serious flaw in your scenario. The Panther and Tiger tanks were developed in response to the T-34 and Kv tanks respectively only after the Germans discovered they existed in the early days of the war. If your war starts in May 1942, your first Tiger tank should be available about August 1943 and your first Panther tank should be available in March 1944. It would appear that the Germans performed a crash research program on tank technology to counter a threat that they didn't know existed.
Svar
Hello Svar,Originally posted by Svar:
Tom1939,
I'm affraid there is a serious flaw in your scenario. The Panther and Tiger tanks were developed in response to the T-34 and Kv tanks respectively only after the Germans discovered they existed in the early days of the war. If your war starts in May 1942, your first Tiger tank should be available about August 1943 and your first Panther tank should be available in March 1944. It would appear that the Germans performed a crash research program on tank technology to counter a threat that they didn't know existed.
Svar
Actually this is the scenario that I created I few months ago, after someone said they thought it would be interesting to see a Soviet first strike. The scenario is based on the Germans knocking the French and British out of the war, including capturing Egypt and the Middle East. Spain was also brought into the war on the Axis side. The scenario is based on large German forces being in North Africa still, but a lot of the army being demobilized otherwise. There are two extra cities - Madrid and Cairo, with some extra factories and population points.
Regarding the tank situation, initial work on a heavy tank began in 1938 or so, but it was put on hold to concentrate on existing tank production. No war and the need to concentrate on existing production is not present. The Germans could have had the Tiger tank in production prior to August 1942 if this hadn't happened, which assuming the Soviets were not attacked and fighting ended could conceivably have happened. The Panther is more of a stretch, but again without the immediate needs of war, a similar tank could have been put into production earlier than historically. If I remember right, the Panther does not start production until a few turns in, and then only in small numbers. The whole basis of the scenario is that the fighting ended and the Germans concentrated their efforts on industrial expansion and research rather than producing equipment (even though they did not historically go on a war footing until late in the war anyway). In my mind they were concentrating on development of new weapons in preperation for the inevitable fight with the Soviets.
It is being played with Ed's wirhack, which gives the Axis a huge boost in the air, which so far has made a big difference.
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
Here is a summary from the Red Army side of what happened.
Comrade Stalin, based on the preoccupation of the potential enemy Germany in the West and North Africa, ordered preperations to begin for a surprise strike to the west. Preparations began in December, with an attack date in May of 1942. Due to the requirement to attack with surprise, very little preparation was carried out along the border, leaving the follow on forces to be created from the call up of reserves. However, readiness and training levels were increased to prepare the front line forces for battle.
The attack began in snowy weather, and the surprise enabled the brave Red Army soldiers to advance deep into the enemy lines. Large numbers were cut off, but rains began, causing major problems for the follow up forces. Also, the Luftwaffe destroyed the out of date planes used by the Red Air Force, taking complete control of the air within weeks.
After reaching the outskirts of Konigsberg and cutting off AGN, the northern flank held fairly tight and eventually the trapped German forces were liquidated into captivity. AGC was also surrounded, but between the mud and air attacks, the trapped soldiers were relieved and our forces thrown back, although losses were limited. Stalin, though, was shocked by the poor performance and high losses in tanks, especially the Bt series and T26s. However, the front was stabilized in front of Lvov and through a line along the Carpathian foothills.
A strict defense was ordered for the following summer, with only local counterattacks allowed. Meanwhile, the Red Air Force was pulled from most of the front until equipment and training levels were improved.
In many areas, the Axis attacks were stopped cold, but in the Lvov area numerous attacks and counterattacks were carried out by both sides, with the Axis eventually taking and holding the city. This caused the front to the south to fall back due to a shortage of supply.
A planned winter offensive was called off because of the mildness of the winter and the total air superiority of the Luftwaffe, except for minor probes. However, by March of 1943, larger attacks were launched. The Red Air Force is also taking a larger role in the war, having better success against the masses of Fw190s being put into the air.
[ August 23, 2001: Message edited by: RickyB ]</p>
Comrade Stalin, based on the preoccupation of the potential enemy Germany in the West and North Africa, ordered preperations to begin for a surprise strike to the west. Preparations began in December, with an attack date in May of 1942. Due to the requirement to attack with surprise, very little preparation was carried out along the border, leaving the follow on forces to be created from the call up of reserves. However, readiness and training levels were increased to prepare the front line forces for battle.
The attack began in snowy weather, and the surprise enabled the brave Red Army soldiers to advance deep into the enemy lines. Large numbers were cut off, but rains began, causing major problems for the follow up forces. Also, the Luftwaffe destroyed the out of date planes used by the Red Air Force, taking complete control of the air within weeks.
After reaching the outskirts of Konigsberg and cutting off AGN, the northern flank held fairly tight and eventually the trapped German forces were liquidated into captivity. AGC was also surrounded, but between the mud and air attacks, the trapped soldiers were relieved and our forces thrown back, although losses were limited. Stalin, though, was shocked by the poor performance and high losses in tanks, especially the Bt series and T26s. However, the front was stabilized in front of Lvov and through a line along the Carpathian foothills.
A strict defense was ordered for the following summer, with only local counterattacks allowed. Meanwhile, the Red Air Force was pulled from most of the front until equipment and training levels were improved.
In many areas, the Axis attacks were stopped cold, but in the Lvov area numerous attacks and counterattacks were carried out by both sides, with the Axis eventually taking and holding the city. This caused the front to the south to fall back due to a shortage of supply.
A planned winter offensive was called off because of the mildness of the winter and the total air superiority of the Luftwaffe, except for minor probes. However, by March of 1943, larger attacks were launched. The Red Air Force is also taking a larger role in the war, having better success against the masses of Fw190s being put into the air.
[ August 23, 2001: Message edited by: RickyB ]</p>
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
And I forgot one other item. Comrade Stalin has had to order out the NKVD to comb the cities for men avoiding their call to duty, and there has been a definite lack of desire to fight on the part of the people in this offensive war. Although production is running fine, a manpower shortage is forecast for 1944/45 due to this lack of commitment by the populace toward the Great War of Convenience.
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
The Soviets launched a number of attacks along the line, but they all failed. Artillery did cause heavy losses to the SS Panzer korps in the north, but the follow up attack failed with a loss of over 120 tanks. The weather turned to snow, making further attacks risky. Preparations for stopping the German spring offensive continue.
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
sorry, if I could be interpereted like it were my scenario <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> Of course it is made by Rick, very well done! I only made up my story as a backup, and if that means I have to disband my ss troops, I say no way <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> They keep me alive. The tanka avaiablity times might be to good for me: those tigers and panthers are a big advantage, believe me... Independent newspapers report about a big losing air battle over Finnland for the Luftwaffe in february 43, where as they say "the new soviet fighter masses beat the fw190A's and massacred the german bombers". Official German sources dismiss this as paid soviet propaganda.
1943 03. 12.
snow
The victorious 4ss panzer korps captured Tilsit. Great mass graves were found. There were no prisoners taken by the red army in may 42. Losses were not high due the massive air support and the overwhelming odds. Soviet forces are nearly thrown back to the line they came from in 42. Our forces prepare for the final destruction of the red army in the summer of 43, as long as we have the armor and air suppriority.
snow
The victorious 4ss panzer korps captured Tilsit. Great mass graves were found. There were no prisoners taken by the red army in may 42. Losses were not high due the massive air support and the overwhelming odds. Soviet forces are nearly thrown back to the line they came from in 42. Our forces prepare for the final destruction of the red army in the summer of 43, as long as we have the armor and air suppriority.
A large air battle broke out in the skies near Lvov, as numerous planes were dropped on both sides. Well over 50 Fw 190s were hit and destroyed or damaged, along with a number of Me 109s. More Red Air Force planes dropped, but the overall exchange was fairly close. A few bombers got through to hit the defending troops. Stalin was pleased with the results, seeing that bombers can reach their targets even against almost 300 Luftwaffe fighters.
On the ground, an advancing infantry korps of the Germans was hit from 4 sides and thrown back with very heavy losses. The SS Panzer korps in the north near Tilsit also suffered heavy losses to a massive bombardment, and the infantry that took Tilsit back were also hit. Stalin ordered the army commander from Tilsit to "swim the Volga" for his incompetence in holding the city.
Murmers of discontent are being heard in the cities, as those toiling in the factories learn of the heavy losses at the front in the war of proletariat revolution to free Germany of the evil capitalists. This is taking a toll on the people's morale and production.
On the ground, an advancing infantry korps of the Germans was hit from 4 sides and thrown back with very heavy losses. The SS Panzer korps in the north near Tilsit also suffered heavy losses to a massive bombardment, and the infantry that took Tilsit back were also hit. Stalin ordered the army commander from Tilsit to "swim the Volga" for his incompetence in holding the city.
Murmers of discontent are being heard in the cities, as those toiling in the factories learn of the heavy losses at the front in the war of proletariat revolution to free Germany of the evil capitalists. This is taking a toll on the people's morale and production.
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
1943 03. 19.
The O.K.H. officially reports that the losses this winter were "minimal, close to peace time attrition". 4th ss panzer korps continued to clear the Tilsit area against heavy opposition. The losses were much heavier for the bolschevik horde despite on the defence. In the Lvov area a new offence started with the goal of estabilishing a strong bridgehead for the attack against Kiev in the summer. The overconfident 4th shock army was forced to hasty retreat as the 3rd panzer korps easily pushed it aside. The red air force gives absolutely no fighter support for the red army, it is only capable of attacking a few times against not well defended infantry korpses with massive fighter support. The red air force does not dare to challange the Luftwaffe. Losses this week:
Soviet Axis
Inf 756 256
Afv 88 121
Art 421 36
Air 0(none present) 78(flak hurts)
The O.K.H. officially reports that the losses this winter were "minimal, close to peace time attrition". 4th ss panzer korps continued to clear the Tilsit area against heavy opposition. The losses were much heavier for the bolschevik horde despite on the defence. In the Lvov area a new offence started with the goal of estabilishing a strong bridgehead for the attack against Kiev in the summer. The overconfident 4th shock army was forced to hasty retreat as the 3rd panzer korps easily pushed it aside. The red air force gives absolutely no fighter support for the red army, it is only capable of attacking a few times against not well defended infantry korpses with massive fighter support. The red air force does not dare to challange the Luftwaffe. Losses this week:
Soviet Axis
Inf 756 256
Afv 88 121
Art 421 36
Air 0(none present) 78(flak hurts)
Large air battles again were fought to the east of Lvov, with heavy losses on both sides. The patriotic men of the Red Army understand the lack of air support, knowing that Stalin has promised them that the planes are in heavy use on other sectors of the front lines. They are willing to lay down their lives if need be fighting without air support, at least for now.
Meanwhile, counterattacks were thrown at the forces advancing east from Tilsit, throwing back the support for the SS panzer korps and isolating it. The SS korps held out against an attack from 3 sides, though. In the south, a Wehrmacht panzer korps was attacked, but it caused heavy losses, including the destruction of over 200 tanks.
At the end of the week, an early thaw fell across the front. Stalin rejoiced, hoping this would prevent the relief of the SS korps on the Polish border.
Losses were fairly even in squads and artillery, while tank losses were over 3 to 1 in the favor of the Germans. Air losses were 2 to 1 in favor of the Axis.
Meanwhile, counterattacks were thrown at the forces advancing east from Tilsit, throwing back the support for the SS panzer korps and isolating it. The SS korps held out against an attack from 3 sides, though. In the south, a Wehrmacht panzer korps was attacked, but it caused heavy losses, including the destruction of over 200 tanks.
At the end of the week, an early thaw fell across the front. Stalin rejoiced, hoping this would prevent the relief of the SS korps on the Polish border.
Losses were fairly even in squads and artillery, while tank losses were over 3 to 1 in the favor of the Germans. Air losses were 2 to 1 in favor of the Axis.
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
1943. 03. 29.
The 4th ss panzer korps easily broke out, causing 20 times bigger losses to the soviet horde as its own. The succefull outbreak was largely supported by the Luftwaffe. The german inteligence reports growing cinicism of the soviet soliders about the lack of air support. They greet the new recruits with the following advise: if you hear a plane engine,run for cover.It is sure that is a german plane, and there will be no help from the red air force. There are soviet veterans who did not see a single soviet plane for over 8 months. Of course there are not to many soviet veterans around who live 8 months in the front... Large amounts of soviet troops surrender each week, as they say "they can't take the bombardment any more". Losses this week:
Soviet Axis
Inf 643 32
Afv 4 11
Guns 256 0
Air 0 33
O.K.H.
The 4th ss panzer korps easily broke out, causing 20 times bigger losses to the soviet horde as its own. The succefull outbreak was largely supported by the Luftwaffe. The german inteligence reports growing cinicism of the soviet soliders about the lack of air support. They greet the new recruits with the following advise: if you hear a plane engine,run for cover.It is sure that is a german plane, and there will be no help from the red air force. There are soviet veterans who did not see a single soviet plane for over 8 months. Of course there are not to many soviet veterans around who live 8 months in the front... Large amounts of soviet troops surrender each week, as they say "they can't take the bombardment any more". Losses this week:
Soviet Axis
Inf 643 32
Afv 4 11
Guns 256 0
Air 0 33
O.K.H.
I think we missed a set of turns because the Matrix site was down last night, but here is the current turn:
Although losses on the ground were high in the Stalingrad HQ after a surprise Axis air strike, the heavy combat did provide a significant experience boost to the defending Red Army fighters. Two raids were launched on the 4th SS Panzer Korps, which is getting fairly weak CAP from the Luftwaffe. Although the bombers did very little damage, the loss ratio against the swarms of Fw190s continues to be reasonable, cheering comrade Stalin and the ground troops.
Due to the mud, only minor probes were launched. The wet weather continues for a third straight week.
Although losses on the ground were high in the Stalingrad HQ after a surprise Axis air strike, the heavy combat did provide a significant experience boost to the defending Red Army fighters. Two raids were launched on the 4th SS Panzer Korps, which is getting fairly weak CAP from the Luftwaffe. Although the bombers did very little damage, the loss ratio against the swarms of Fw190s continues to be reasonable, cheering comrade Stalin and the ground troops.
Due to the mud, only minor probes were launched. The wet weather continues for a third straight week.
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
Yes, there were some problems transfering the battle data to the O.K.H. due the mud <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> . Nothing really happening, only bombed the stalingrad front to dust. Speer's superb effort on aircraft building led to minor oversupplying of the fighter units. So right now the fw190a's units are full, but somewhat less experience. But quality will soon tell, experience rise. The soviet air force only finds smaller resistance in bad weather. The O.K.H tries hard, but those aristocratic fighter pilots still tend to report as sick in bad weather <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
O.K.H.
O.K.H.