Air power - axis / russia

[rantakari]

I have been playing WIR for some time, and I think i really dont use airpower for its full potential.

For axis, i tend to bomb the soviet af's at the blitzkrieg stage, but then I'm out of ideas.(except for bombing caucasus oilfields)

And for the soviets, I dont have a clue what do with them.

I would appriciate any kinds of tips in using air power.

And a another question, I have some experience in Axis aeroplanes (so I know that a me-262 is a jet plane, me-109 and focke wulf are fighters, ju52 a transport plane, ju-87 dive bomber and so on) but I know nothing of the soviet ones. So can anybody suggest a good website or a book about the red airforce in wwii?

[ August 27, 2001: Message edited by: Lauri Rantakari ]</p>

[MagnusOlsson]

Originally posted by Lauri Rantakari:
I have been playing WIR for some time, and I think i really dont use airpower for its full potential.

For axis, i tend to bomb the soviet af's at the blitzkrieg stage, but then I'm out of ideas.

And for the soviets, I dont have a clue what do with them. (except for bombing baku oilfields)

I would appriciate any kinds of tips in using air power.

And a another question, I have some experience in Axis aeroplanes (so I know that a me-262 is a jet plane, me-109 and focke wulf are fighters, ju52 a transport plane, ju-87 dive bomber and so on) but I know nothing of the soviet ones. So can anybody suggest a good website or a book about the red airforce in wwii?

---

I can only speak for myself, but I tend to use the Axis air force to:

1. Bomb airfields
2. Interdict
3. Focus bombers at the HQ responsible for the main offensive
4. Strategic bombing (but the effects of this is IMO disputable)

The russians:

1. Remove them in the beginning and set them on training in HQ's with leaders of at least fair quality.
2. Add them to HQ's just outside the FW's range (14 hexes) and let them assist in repulsing axis advances in september/october. they can play a significant role if you use them wisely.
3. Try to bomb Ploesti, Rome, Vienna and Budapest. At least it forces the Axis player to divert fighters. I learned this the hard way...
4. Move them around a lot.

Rgds,
Magnus

[rantakari]

Originally posted by MagnusOlsson:


2. Interdict

Rgds,
Magnus

---

Is intredicting really worth the effort? The enemy
losses are quite small, is there a readiness loss?
I have read the manual through but I dont remember such thing.

[RickyB]

Originally posted by Lauri Rantakari:

Is intredicting really worth the effort? The enemy
losses are quite small, is there a readiness loss?
I have read the manual through but I dont remember such thing.

---

Depending on the loss level, there can be a readiness hit to the defender. You will get higher losses if you mass you bombers more - in the earlier versions even heavily entrenched defenders would get beat up by just a few bombers, but now you need more. Against unentrenched units, single bombers will still have a much better chance of causing significant damage. I personally avoid airfield attacks unless I know there are many bombers there, usually. Airfields have a lot of flak, and if you have superiority in the air the enemy fighters will get chewed up badly anyway if they defend. If they don't intercept interdiction attacks you may be able to hit airfields without fighter defenses, so this
is a better deal in my mind. Trying to break through without air attacks beforehand is very costly. Air power may not always help a huge amount, but in the right situation it will.

[MagnusOlsson]

Originally posted by RickyB:

Depending on the loss level, there can be a readiness hit to the defender.

---

I am under the impression that interdict missions can affect entrenchment level. Is that correct or just something I've imagined?

[RickyB]

Originally posted by MagnusOlsson:


I am under the impression that interdict missions can affect entrenchment level. Is that correct or just something I've imagined?

---

I am not sure. I am fairly sure that the earlier versions were capable of beating down the entrenchment level, but in the current version I believe it requires a very heavy bomb load to do so. It could have no impact at all, but I think that it can if enough bombs are dropped. I will try to setup a test tonight if I have time to see.

[PMCN]

For the use of airpower...

On the german side after the initial hits to cripple the soviets I tend to use it mainly in ground support except when I attack a major city or accross a river against substantial defences. Then I interdict. The next major use is when I find the soviet has airforces back in play I again go after his bases to try and suppress them. I do some strategic bombing of lennigrad and stalingrad and so on if I have idle air power. The one thing that I do make sure to do is to set the ME110s to ground attack only since they are useless in a dogfight and training the soviets by giving them easy kills is a bad idea. For the panzer army HQs I try to give them 2 Fighters (1 on escort the other on CAP), plus 2 stuka and 1 bomber. Though that is often reversed but I reserve my stuka's for the panzers. I keep a pretty substantial air reserve in germany training and rotate it thru to keep the experience and numbers high. I often find it useful to set 1 of the bomber groups and 1 fighter group to training if I notice they have lots of damaged planes and let them rebuild.

For the soviets the first thing I do is pull them out ASAP except in Lennigrad where I let them pound on the Finns as training. I put all my long range heavy bombers in the caucasuses training. There mission will be polesti come the winter. I make sure that I have air covering Moscow, Stalino and Stalingrad (not important against the computer but against a human it is). Then I split up the units making a super group of the long range ground attack planes (and heaven help a panzer korp that outruns its air cover) plus other groups of fighters and dive bombers. When they have sufficient training that they don't die in droves I then send them out to the front. In this case I use the older fighters first I-15 (CAP), I-16 Escort, 1 useless bomber (can't think of its name but you start with thousands of them). The only optimisation of russian production that I do is changing the Mig 3 factories so I have equal numbers of Lagg and Yak factories. I use the lag as escort and the yak as cap for the sturmavik. But they don't show up until the blizzard. Till then I will use I-15 and I-16 groups to disrupt axis attacks. You generally loose lots of planes but then you have lots of this junk and the planes you are shooting down are very slow to be replaced...especially the stukas. After the soviet air power recovers I tend to stick to a dispersed air power (2 fighter 1 bomber per army) but mass it as a support. Such as for example those heavy transport bombers which I use on mass as a "rolling thunder" type operation. Same is true of the fighter bombers and the long range ground attackers the soviets get (can't think of its name). The key to the soviets is rotations. You have enought that you can rotate planes into the front lines for a few weeks and then pull them out and let them rebuild and retrain. Plus you can rotate your planes thru CAP in your training HQs to make sure that you have well trained units. For the soviets don't bother using air units with less than 50 experience and if possible hold off for 60 or higher but against a human I suspect that will be impossible.

[Josans]

Originally posted by Paul McNeely:
For the use of airpower...
The one thing that I do make sure to do is to set the ME110s to ground attack only since they are useless in a dogfight and training the soviets by giving them easy kills is a bad idea.

---

Its curious the differents points of view about the use of airpower. Many people make the same with Me-100 as you do but I still use the Me-110 in different manner. I suppose you are right but I like a more offensive use of the fighter-bombers :
- After (and only after) you have achieved the air superiority I put the Me-100 in Escort. In each interdiction attack the fighters help this with ground support. You can make as many times as bombers you have. Useful to attack multiple unentrenched units. I know the fact that in each mission the damage losses goes up but you can rotate with other units (when finish attacks transfer the unit to rest and put a new reffited one ). Each attack cost 1 Op but I dont think this is a problem for the germans.

Is a great achievement for a game the possibility of make different uses of a feature. All valids.
This topic is a good exemple. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">


Josan.

[moonfog]

Originally posted by Josan:


Its curious the differents points of view about the use of airpower. Many people make the same with Me-100 as you do but I still use the Me-110 in different manner. I suppose you are right but I like a more offensive use of the fighter-bombers :
- After (and only after) you have achieved the air superiority I put the Me-100 in Escort. In each interdiction attack the fighters help this with ground support. You can make as many times as bombers you have. Useful to attack multiple unentrenched units. I know the fact that in each mission the damage losses goes up but you can rotate with other units (when finish attacks transfer the unit to rest and put a new reffited one ). Each attack cost 1 Op but I dont think this is a problem for the germans.

Is a great achievement for a game the possibility of make different uses of a feature. All valids.
This topic is a good exemple. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">


Josan.

---

Josan,

did I understand you correct, that a Me-110 unit ordered to escort bombers always takes part in the interdiction ground attack? So Me-110 don't have to be set on interdictin themselves?

Moonfog

[Josans]

Originally posted by moonfog:



Josan,

did I understand you correct, that a Me-110 unit ordered to escort bombers always takes part in the interdiction ground attack? So Me-110 don't have to be set on interdictin themselves?

Moonfog

---

Yes, in Escort the fighterbombers always takes part in the interdicction and all future combats like a escort and a bomber too! So is not necessary set on in interdiction.

Josan.

[moonfog]

Originally posted by Josan:


Yes, in Escort the fighterbombers always takes part in the interdicction and all future combats like a escort and a bomber too! So is not necessary set on in interdiction.

Josan.

---

Thanks for that info, Josan. Didn't know about that possibility. There's always something new to learn on this game.

Moonfog

[Josans]

Originally posted by moonfog:


Thanks for that info, Josan. Didn't know about that possibility. There's always something new to learn on this game.

Moonfog

---

Yes theres always something new to learn. Is for that I love this game. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Yours

Josan.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Josan:
Yes, in Escort the fighterbombers always takes part in the interdicction and all future combats like a escort and a bomber too! So is not necessary set on in interdiction.

---

The same is true for *fighters* on escort too! All planes contribute their bombload to an airfield attack, for example, no matter if they were intercepted and fought air-to-air beforehand. It shouldn't be that way for fighters and fighter-bombers, but air combat in WiR is already so abstracted that allowing this to continue doesn't hurt realism much, as far as I can see.

[Nikademus]

Is there any 'disadvantage' to not assigning your fighter or bomber groups to a player specified air attack? (the exception of course being CAP, that role is self explanitory)

I've always noticed that the computer automatically assigns available airgroups to support the ground forces during the combat phase but the manual is a little vague on this. Are airgroups that have been "used" and are now unavailable able to be tapped for ground support missions?

if so....strategy question. It seems the Russian pays particularily dearly when trying to do both. is it a less draining strategy to just use Russian airgroups for direct support during the combat phase vs. player specified targeting?

[Svar]

Originally posted by Nikademus:
Is there any 'disadvantage' to not assigning your fighter or bomber groups to a player specified air attack? (the exception of course being CAP, that role is self explanitory)

I've always noticed that the computer automatically assigns available airgroups to support the ground forces during the combat phase but the manual is a little vague on this. Are airgroups that have been "used" and are now unavailable able to be tapped for ground support missions?

if so....strategy question. It seems the Russian pays particularily dearly when trying to do both. is it a less draining strategy to just use Russian airgroups for direct support during the combat phase vs. player specified targeting?

---

Nikademus,

All air groups not assigned to Cap or training are available for ground support during the combat phase even if they already flew player directed air missions.

One disadvantage to player directed air attacks is all planes must come from a single HQ and must be in the HQ the turn before. One of the advantages of ground support air missions is there can be as many HQs sending air groups as there are attacking armies for the Soviet player plus the air groups could be sent to the front during the orders phase. For the Soviet player, he can set up an ambush on a single German HQ by forcing a massive attack on a Korps supported by that HQ with multiple Fronts supporting the attack. Not only does the Soviet have the advantage of flooding the battle with fighters but will ensure that most of his bombers reach their target.

Svar

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Svar:
All air groups not assigned to Cap or training are available for ground support during the combat phase even if they already flew player directed air missions.

---

Just a little note: technically groups on CAP will be used during ground support phase if your HQ's corps are attacked. The difference is they won't escort your bombers if you assign them to CAP, but also, if they are on CAP they intercept at full strength whereas Escort fighters usually show up less than full strength, often half-strength. You'll see the CAP planes during ground support as they intercept incoming enemy planes, but they will NOT fly with your bombers and protect them.

[PMCN]

Ed writes....
Just a little note: technically groups on CAP will be used during ground support phase if your HQ's corps are attacked. The difference is they won't escort your bombers if you assign them to CAP, but also, if they are on CAP they intercept at full strength whereas Escort fighters usually show up less than full strength, often half-strength. You'll see the CAP planes during ground support as they intercept incoming enemy planes, but they will NOT fly with your bombers and protect them.

---

It is for the reasons above that when I have 2 fighter groups (my Pz Armee HQs, standard Russian Army HQ) I have one on CAP and the other on ESCORT. The one on CAP has saved my planes on the ground on more than one occasion. But I think for the soviets it is even more important. Protecting your planes on the ground is critical and for that you need the CAP group. In the air attack the CAP group may work as an escort anyway as it will attack the inbounds...though it will not always do so before they attack the bombers.

[Barbos]

Some questions about "teaching" units:

1. Seems to be useful to know the formula: let A fighters with experience B fly an escort/cap mission, kill C enemies and loose D friendly planes. What experience do they gain? Do ground troops get experience in a similar way?

2. Do fighters increase their skill participating in ground attacks?

3. Bombers?

Thanx.

[RickyB]

Originally posted by Barbos:
Some questions about "teaching" units:

1. Seems to be useful to know the formula: let A fighters with experience B fly an escort/cap mission, kill C enemies and loose D friendly planes. What experience do they gain? Do ground troops get experience in a similar way?

2. Do fighters increase their skill participating in ground attacks?

3. Bombers?

Thanx.

---

No idea what the exact formula is on gaining experience in combat. In part, it is related to performance on combat, but I think it is primarily weighted toward how many enemy planes are hit/shot down, rather than losses to the air unit. I also believe the gain is capped at 5% per turn. Of course, then replacements come in and lower the experience back down, which has an impact that varies by year as the default experience changes over time.

Fighter do not gain experience in bombing attacks unless enemy planes are successfully fought. Escorting unopposed bombers gains nothing. This is a change from the original version where just flying could gain experience, I believe. Basically fighters gain experience by doing their primary job and bombers the same. I don't think bombers will get experience for fighting intercepting fighters if they don't successfully bomb the target, but I may be wrong on that.

[Tom1939]

Originally posted by RickyB:

No idea what the exact formula is on gaining experience in combat. In part, it is related to performance on combat, but I think it is primarily weighted toward how many enemy planes are hit/shot down, rather than losses to the air unit. I also believe the gain is capped at 5% per turn. Of course, then replacements come in and lower the experience back down, which has an impact that varies by year as the default experience changes over time.

Fighter do not gain experience in bombing attacks unless enemy planes are successfully fought. Escorting unopposed bombers gains nothing. This is a change from the original version where just flying could gain experience, I believe. Basically fighters gain experience by doing their primary job and bombers the same. I don't think bombers will get experience for fighting intercepting fighters if they don't successfully bomb the target, but I may be wrong on that.

---

Hi!

I play a game with rick with 3.0 wir, and my experience says rick has right. I have air suppriority against his soviet air force, but keeping air suppriority is much harder now as my fighters do not gain experience for just flying missions, in previous versions if you had the air suppriority your fighters gaind exp just for escorting. So if you once had air suppriority you kept it. So I think 3.0 is more realistic, but it does hurt my beloved Luftwaffe.