How to fight the double assault on Russia?

[sveint]

Hopefully they make the USA join the war when/if Japan attacks Russia but until then...

Anyone have thoughts or ideas on how to fight this? Russia is getting crushed, UK is weak and USA is neutral.

[Barthheart]

It is possible for the Wallies and Russia to pull this off. It requires dedicated planning by Russia before the war and the Wallies to be very agressive with what little they have until the US gets into it. But it can be done. I believe that with more playing of the Wallies everyone will get the hang of it. Turst me, you can do it and win!!![8D] No change in the rules is needed.[:-]

[daskomodo]

I think it is possible to defend Russia, even with a two-way squeeze. Japan needs to commit his production to land units and maybe land research to pull this off, making him weaker vs the USA.

China will definately have to gear up for an offensive (with WA supplies), while Russia needs to focus on pure defense waiting for the WA cavalry.

Still, I wish the AI would try this more often so I can examine this scenario better.

[Maginot]

How exactly does the Western Allies attempt to suppy China? Its a long trip.

[daskomodo]

How exactly does the Western Allies attempt to suppy China? Its a long trip.

If you look at the initial unit setup, you can send supplies from the USA to Mandalay (right next to India) through the transports that loop under Africa or the ones in the Pacific. Transports in frozen zones can still convoy supplies.
That's one season.

Next season, move the supplies from Mandalay to Kunming. China will be able to use supplies on the 3rd season.

Takes a little foresight, but China doesn't need that much supply anyway (i.e. do it soon, just in case)

[aletoledo]

I've had a three front assault against russia pushed back (third being from turkey). russia will eventually fall, but it was more of a delaying action against me.

three tanks against japan will usually stop them cold and require them to devote units away from india and the WA. when the WA enter they can then quickly isolate japan.

[Badbonez]

ORIGINAL: Barthheart

It is possible for the Wallies and Russia to pull this off. It requires dedicated planning by Russia before the war and the Wallies to be very agressive with what little they have until the US gets into it. But it can be done. I believe that with more playing of the Wallies everyone will get the hang of it. Turst me, you can do it and win!!![8D] No change in the rules is needed.[:-]

Care to elaborate? Other than research and build units, what can Russia do to protect both fronts? I understand the WAllies need to put pressure on the Axis, but I am curious to hear your experiences. Thanks.

[ratprince]

On Russian Defense;


I think the issue lies in the pre-planning stages. If you, from the beginning, assume that the Soviet Union WILL be hit by Japan in the east, then that is half the battle. Hoping they wont is no defense. So, the question then lies with "how to stop them?"

First, as the Russians, we must accept that the following cities are lost:

1) Kiev
2) Belorussia
3) Kharkov
4) Vladivostok
5) Leningrad (potential to hold it but chancy)

So, with these lost, where does that leave Stalin's Proxy? Not as bad as might be thought.

In knowing these cities are lost in the initial onslaught, we can take two approaches.... 1) abandon them and only produce research there during the buildup, or, 2) build units and make them pay to take them. Either is valid and potentially valuable and risky.

If we choose to abandon the cities, then we are planning on the '41 invasion. If Germany waits until '42-'43, well, we can build enough units in those areas to hold em.

If we choose to hold the cities initially, then we are planning for the late invasion. All of this hinges on the German player of course.

An overall goal for Russia is to simply survive. If the Soviet Union is in existence when the U.S. comes to play, then the Germans will be....disconcerted. Holding central Russia and the Caucus is enought to keep alive. Dont try to hold it all. Simply let the Germans burn supplies to come to you. There is almost no way the Germans (or Japanese) can repair rails, repair resources, produce supply and repair damaged units all the while defending against the WA and assaulting Russia. Keep the Germans at bay, dont let a large group form to smash your large group...keep moving, even if that means abandoning MOscow.

As for the Japanese, DONT DEFEND VLADIVOSTOK! The Japanese are an Amphib army. They WILL crush it no matter what. Plus, if they cut the link, then it is easy to surround Vlad and permanently destroy all the units there. INstead, fall back to Irkutsk and defend the rail line. It will be prohibitively supply expensive for Japan to take the north route with no rails. Hold with upgraded tanks and arty and the Japs wont be able to punch through -i.e. stalemate. You may not be able to take back Vlad, but that is unimportant. Just stay in existence until WI'43 and the Americans are on the way!

This is not an exhaustive treatise on the defense of Russia, however, some key strategies need to be devised for the one, two or three front war PRIOR them occuring. Always have a plan in place before it happens. Reacting is much more efficient if you know it is going to happen.....

My 2 ....err.... 6 cents! [;)]

later

Mike

[Barthheart]

Yeah... what Mike said for Russia.[8D]
As for the Wallies, it's hard to give set advice because it really depends on what your opponents are up to. Gernerally speaking though I try to drive the Germans nuts with small raids on his resources and factories. Not just bombing, but actuall small landings on areas he has not defended well. make him pay for every little mistake. It a good trade off for the Wallies. Even if you lose one or two units in his counter attack, he'll need to pay 5 supplies for each infrastructure that you have destroyed. Plus you have diverted forces that are badly needed for the invasion of Russia. I tend to dis agree with everyone who says don't defend Cairo. I usually go whole hog and get as much there as I can. The Germans will either give up or build up as well, again delaying the attack on Russia. Plus this protect the soft Russian under belly and keeps resources away from the Axis. Your job, until the US is in the war is to annoy/stall/distract the Germans from their main task of invading Russia. Every season that they delay in attacking Russia seriously hampers their ability to get an auto victory. The Germans are on a very tight schedule (I know I say that alot[8|] but it's true) and any delay is deadly and can cause mistakes later as they rush to try to catch up.

Just ask Mike what "death of a thousand pin picks" feels like....[:D]

Hope this helps.[8D]

[ratprince]

hehehe! Yes, Barthheart is the Master of "annoyance" raids!! arghhh!! [:@]

[;)]

Barth has it right for the Allies. They have the mobility of the fleet, they MUST use it to the full advantage. Pop into France, jump out. Hit Greece, back to the boats. Denmark undefended, back to England.

The point is a great one and used to spectacular effect. The Germans cannot be strong everyone at once. Hit the weak spots, then leave. DO this enough and the Axis will be too far behind in their Russia schedule to be anything but on the defensive come '43. Ask Sveint about this, he is experiencing it as we speak! [;)] [:'(]

Later all!

Mike

[Uncle_Joe]

From what I've seen so far in my Russian defense of the 'double team' is that Russia must be prepared to give up a little more on the German front to completely stop the Japanese cold in the Far East. Usually this means taking some critical Armor from the Germany front and using it to completely crush the Japanese advance. 8-8 Tanks are practically unkillable to early war Japanese units. Even if the Japanes get their Infantry to 7 attack, they have less than a 30% chance of a hit. Japanese artillery is all but useless vs Russian tanks (starts at 5 GA meaning less than 1% chance of a kill on an 8-8 tank).

So, if you can free up a few tanks for just a few turns, you can smash the Japanese advance quite thoroughly. You WILL lose ground to the Germans while your tanks are away. But unless you are giving up Moscow or more importantly, the Caucasus, you are still probably coming out ahead. You can lose an awful lot of resources very quickly to Japan if they are left unchecked.

So far, I've successfully manhandled the Japanese in two games with Russia. Unfortunately, I overcommited to the Far East in one and lost too much to the Germans. Its a tough balancing act, but it works better than trying to fight Japan on near even terms. IMO, its better to smash them once and demolish their ability to advance. You only have to buy a little time before the US is breathing down their necks too. Finally, if they have ignored China, its possible to coordinate with Russian and really make a mess for Japan.

The real trick is to pull just enough to get the job done in the Far East, do it, and then get back against the Germans before you lose too much more to them. This also requires an aggressive strategy by the WAllies to keep Germany honest. I've tried to defend the 'double' a few times now and I havent had better success with any other strategy than this one. I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to attack the problem, but this is my first success story.