Should I start with BiN or KP?

[Superfly]

Gday all,
I am new to all this with very little wargaming experience. Frankly reading books about battles isn't my thing either. Given this am I deluding myself that I can play either of these games?
If I was to get one do you think I should start with the older ( and seemingly slightly simpler ) KP or just jump straight in with BiN.
Thanks for your advice.

[Fred98]

BIN has more features and hot keys which ultimately makes it easier for a newby.

Go for BIN. There are lots of us playing PBEM games.

And the next game, Battles In Italy ("BII") is due out any time soon.

[JSS]

ORIGINAL: Superfly

Gday all,
I am new to all this with very little wargaming experience. Frankly reading books about battles isn't my thing either. Given this am I deluding myself that I can play either of these games?
If I was to get one do you think I should start with the older ( and seemingly slightly simpler ) KP or just jump straight in with BiN.
Thanks for your advice.

There's a lot to be said for starting with KP. It is a little simpler to play and there's more battles to choose from... to include the awesome ATD battle (Matrix Digital Download) and the many free custom battles at Run5.

On the other hand BIN is the better game engine, has a much better AI, and more people are playing it. The five free battles from Run5 are also very, very good (so are the two free 76 turn scenarios).

Either way you'll make a great choice!!!

[Guderon]

JSS - I'm currently playing your 'On to Paris' scenario and it rocks! Great job. But you mention 2 76 turn scenarios - what is the other one?

[Rob Gjessing]

76 Turn'ers - There is JSS's On to Paris scenario and then I also think that Steve Fords Free Landing Variant is 76 turns too.. both are available from the Scenario page at SSG/Run5.

http://www.ssg.com.au/Run5/scenarios.htm

[Rob Gjessing]

Superlfy.. I would approach your question from the view point of - which battles are you most interested in? If its the Eastern Front then go for KP - if its Normandy then go for Bin. But what JSS says it true too.. if you get KP you get real value for money due to the availability of more user scenarios.. but I also think that when we talk user scenarios the ones for BIN are of a slightly higher standard.

Heck.. buy both..

[HercMighty]

ORIGINAL: Rob Gjessing

but I also think that when we talk user scenarios the ones for BIN are of a slightly higher standard.

They are if you play PBEM, AI is usually not included and if it is, it is not meant to provide a challenge. It would be nice if these part of the scenario creation were easier for scenario makers. I have not made a scenario myself but the instructions I have read it takes a lot to get one of these done and by the time you get to the AI portion it doesn't get done and get's released as a PBEM scenario.

[Toby42]

ORIGINAL: HercMighty

ORIGINAL: Rob Gjessing

but I also think that when we talk user scenarios the ones for BIN are of a slightly higher standard.

They are if you play PBEM, AI is usually not included and if it is, it is not meant to provide a challenge. It would be nice if these part of the scenario creation were easier for scenario makers. I have not made a scenario myself but the instructions I have read it takes a lot to get one of these done and by the time you get to the AI portion it doesn't get done and get's released as a PBEM scenario.

BIN was supposed to be easier to create scenario's, but it must be harder. There aren't near as many as there are for KP. At least ones with working AI's.

[Rob Gjessing]

No its not harder at all.. its time consuming thats all - esp if you want to program an AI. Infact doing an AI isnt challenging at all.. doing a good one is.. because it involved alot of testing.. if you think about it.. each time you make a change to the AI you have to play the game though against the AI (well you should do this if you want to make it a good AI) - and that is what is time consuming. It just takes time. The people making these custom scenarios doing it as a hobby, they dont get paid for it and they do it in their free time. I can understand why some scenario designers (me included) do the last step (AI) - as we just dont have the time to invest.

I know personally when I make a scenario I am actually making it for my own enjoyment. I prefer to play via email - so I dont really have much need to program a top notch AI - there is nothing stopping anyone else picking up one of the scenarios that I (and others) have created and making an AI for it.

Use the force guys - the easiest way to address something which you think is lacking is to do something about it. So stop complaining about all of the good free stuff that others are doing for you and start doing some of it yourself. If you need help designing a scenario or an AI then all you need to do is ask myself, Roger (from SSG), JSS, Manny or any of the other designers out there.

[Superfly]

Thanks for you comments all. Not sure that I'm any closer to making my mind up which one i should go for but that's my problem[:)]

[Rob Gjessing]

I would get Bin - there problem solved.

[Adam Parker]

BiN - better and newer interface, better AI, imo better scens, imo more strategic involvement. Also offers the newer version of Ardennes.

But I would wait for Italy.

Cheers,
Adam.

[TheHellPatrol]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

BiN - better and newer interface, better AI, imo better scens, imo more strategic involvement. Also offers the newer version of Ardennes.

But I would wait for Italy.

Cheers,
Adam.

BiN for sure IMO...Italy may be more subjective, not as beautiful as the French countryside, also a different kind of warfare. I don't envision BII as a "new game" but as an improved extension of the BiN engine. I eagerly await the chance to defend as the badass German veterans that were deployed to Italy and it should be the Axis' moment in the spotlight...if played correctly[:D]. Hopefully the larger maps and tweaks should open the door for some truly epic/important battles that changed/could have changed the course of the war eg: Arnhem/Market Garden. Nobody really knows/understands the significance of why the Allies risked so much to invade Italy when in the greater scheme of things other objectives could have been taken. That itself though is what will make this rendition of Decisive Battles that much more compelling.
[8D]

[ibalkid]

I just started playing the DBs(Decisive battle series?) I have played alot of wargame before though, enough to realize i found a gem of a series. I bought em all. Korsun and ATD the other night and BIN and BII just tonight. But thats me a hardcore war grognard. You might want to try Korsun first just because of the price and your lack of wargaming experience. If you like it then you have the first in a great series and can move on to the rest as you get comnftorable with the mass amount of game dynamics. Also the price will no doubt come down as well for the other titles if Kp engrosses you for a long period of time. If you find that war gaming isnt for you then you only are out 25 bucks for Korsun as opposed to 49-59 bucks for BIN.

I prefer to have the whole series, i still play many of my old war games that i consider classics, but thats just me.