WIR Expansion to other Fronts!?

Paul2 · Post by **Paul2** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 5:49 pm

Have been playing WIR for years, since it was SSI's 'Second Front'. Unbeatable format. What would fans think of an attempt to include Western and Mediterranean ('Italian')Fronts as 'playable' i.e like the Eastern Front - with maps, units - exactly like East. Perhaps option to run some fronts on 'auto' and play e.g the North African front, then switch back to East etc. Perhaps naval warfare could be simplified into 'Pools' to reduce complexity. i.e - does player choose to spend resources on capital ships, minelayers, U-boats/ subs, or anti-shipping aircraft etc
This would enable scanrios such as 'Operation Sealion' (a personal favourite - the 1940 invasion UK attempt/ plan), North African scenarios, actions in Greece/ Yugoslavia, early invasion of USSR, USSR invasion of Europe! The list is long....and would need a map from Ireland (?) to the Urals and from northern Norway to the Middle East/ North Africa.
This would be a mammoth task and should we expect it for free?? I would personally pay whatever it would take for such a game! Would anyone else be interested in such an 'expansion' of the WIR game - keeping the format the same (or even increasing the detail down to independent Regiment detail - musn't be greedy!) ??

c.topfer · Post by **c.topfer** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 10:23 pm

I have always been looking for a game that covers the whole of WWII on a strategic scale, and I MEAN strategic (not the tactical games they sell as strategy). While WIR is really a great game it has several flaws, but, as much as you, I would be more than willing to pay money for such a game. It should feature decent graphics (800x600, at least 256 colours), maybe some sound (declarations of war, maybe a little like COS) and more detail. Regarding detail I am not talking about going to Regiment Level (would you want to fight the WHOLE war on Regiment Level???), but better resource management, R&D management and some sort of naval management (the box idea suits me fine, the War in the Pacific is TOO detailed for a grand strategy WW2 game).

Greetings, Chris

Tom1939 · Post by **Tom1939** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 12:41 pm

I'm afraid we have a slim chance for such a game. There were discussions about this same idea in this forum some time ago. I think the result were: wir cannot be modified that much (memory reasons, no bigger map possible etc.), and we wir fanatics are not big enough market to make a new one like this. I hope sincerely that I'm wrong and something great is coming, but I don't think so.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 3:03 pm

Originally posted by Tom1939:
I'm afraid we have a slim chance for such a game. There were discussions about this same idea in this forum some time ago. I think the result were: wir cannot be modified that much (memory reasons, no bigger map possible etc.), and we wir fanatics are not big enough market to make a new one like this. I hope sincerely that I'm wrong and something great is coming, but I don't think so.

If Gary isn't willing to tackle a European theatre game of his type then I don't know who would. All he wants to do is remake WiR again.

Tom1939 · Post by **Tom1939** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 4:54 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

If Gary isn't willing to tackle a European theatre game of his type then I don't know who would. All he wants to do is remake WiR again.

He remakes it with no gameplay change? Or he makes an even greater game? Please tell me I was wrong with my first post and he does make a greater bigger better one! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 4:03 am

Originally posted by Paul2:
..........................
This would enable scanrios such as 'Operation Sealion' (a personal favourite - the 1940 invasion UK attempt/ plan), North African scenarios, actions in Greece/ Yugoslavia, early invasion of USSR, USSR invasion of Europe! The list is long....and would need a map from Ireland (?) to the Urals and from northern Norway to the Middle East/ North Africa.
............??

Paul2

Yes it's a great idea and about a year back i actually created the Map for the ETO in Operational Art of War and started on the OOB when i realised what a mammoth task i was setting myself and as there is no production or research in Opart it would eventually not be very satisfying to play.
I made a SeaLion scenerio as well which was fun if not very acurate in the OOB.

The only real option is World in Flames and when the final PC version comes out i will probably buy it. I dont like it's game system as much as WiR but its the whole world an i just can't resist that.

Loki

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 1:53 pm

Originally posted by Tom1939:

He remakes it with no gameplay change? Or he makes an even greater game? Please tell me I was wrong with my first post and he does make a greater bigger better one! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

The description he gives on his website, http://www.2by3games.com/ , about his potential Eastern Front game sounds awfully similar to WiR. This is unlike "War in the Pacific" which is clearly more detailed and more expansive than his "Pacific War". There is no other source of info as far as I know, besides that "feature list" posted on their website, and that description as I say could be talking about WiR not some future game. I'm frustrated, I wish someone there would update their website with more info, and any word on if any publisher has picked up that new Eastern Front game of his (Matrix won't).

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]</p>

Swordolight2000 · Post by **Swordolight2000** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 8:10 pm

There is a game called Western Front alot similiar to WiR , its made by the same guy, greg

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 10:04 pm

Hi, yes if matrix would fix West Front that would be nice. The maps and system from WF could also be used in scenarios for France 1940. 2by3 Games(Gary Grigsby, Joel Billings, and Keith Bors) new Russian Front game looks to be an improvment over WIR hexes will be 10 miles. While pretty much the same thing as WIR the move from a DOS based game (WIR) to Windows (and from 1990's to 2002 code) should fix alot of things. And allow for much more detail. I guessing that their will be more leaders then just Army/Front and supply will be more detailed. I think I've owned/played/loved every game GG ever designed starting with Kampfgruppe. Before Second Front I think there was a game also called War in Russia (Commodore64)

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]</p>

MagnusOlsson · Post by **MagnusOlsson** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:32 pm

Just out of curiosity; does anyone know how much it would cost to develop a WiR-like game for the entire ETO?

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:18 am

I have long advocated combining Western Front and War in Russia, but I don't think GG and his group are inclined to invest the effort. It would be a great product, but don't hold your breath...

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 2:10 pm

Originally posted by Mogami:
I guessing that their will be more leaders then just Army/Front and supply will be more detailed.

But the list only mentions Army HQs IIRC, so I doubt there will be much need for more leaders than the major ones already available. Again, a lack of detail in that list.

I think I've owned/played/loved every game GG ever designed starting with Kampfgruppe.

I loved that game, played it on an 8bit Atari.

Before Second Front I think there was a game also called War in Russia (Commodore64)

Yes, it was also available on the Atari, I have it running on an Atari emulator. The game we call WiR today is actually "WiR II", I know it was referred to as such in at least one place somewhere somewhen, but the docs and the game box just call it WIR.

Swordolight2000 · Post by **Swordolight2000** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:49 am

I never played Second Front what is it like? isn't it the same thing as WiR? since both are settle in Russia and are both using same engine/or whatever u call it.

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:14 pm

sword,

Second front was produced before War In Russian and even before western Front. It is best described as a WiR 1.0 because it covered the exact same area, same basic game engine, etc.

It had no mouse support.

On faster machines, it would rip through the screens so fast, you had no clue as to what was going on. The default HQ replacement level was ZERO, so if you didn't change it you quickly had problems.

There was NO restriction on marchung units. You could march a corps from the lenningrad area to the stalingrad area in one turn and the unit would be at 60 - 70% readiness the next turn. Personally, I think the 4 hex limit is too restrictive, I think motorized units should be allowed 1000 miles (10 hexes??) in a week behind the lines. Marching units (the vast majority of the German Army, should still be limited to 4 hexes on a march.

Air was much simpler (I actually liked its simplicity). Every air group in an HQ went on one mission, be it airfield attack, interdiction, supply or city bombing. So it was much better to spread your air groups out among all your HQs instead of concentrating them into SUPER HQs like some folks do in WiR. No matter what air missions you flew during the orders phase, all attack units (everything except transports) was used in ground support automatically, you didn't have to specify it.

GET TRANSPT · Post by **GET TRANSPT** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 2:39 pm

I played/owned almost every GG game as well. My first was the excellent "North Atlantic '86" in 1983... played it for zllins of hours on a friend's Apple II, then on my Apple IIc I bought in feb '85 for 800 bucks (a STEAL then !)

I owned all his east front versions, including the first "War in Russia" for the Apple. GG also produced many Pacific ar games including "War in the South Pacific"; SSI had great customer support through the early 90s. I still have "Second Front" for the IBM and I would love to see a remake.

In '98, I threw out my Apple IIc and all my SSI Apple floppies. Another fave I miss is "USAAF"; If I get the leisure time I'll think about an emulator. Is there a site out there for these old titles?

vertinox · Post by **vertinox** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:41 am

What I'm looking for is a game cross with War in Europe, World In Flames, and War In Russia wrapped into one big game that allows you to not only direct divisions and korps like WIE and WIR but build factories and decide what technology to researchy.

It would also be nice to be able to decide were to build new raile road networks and fortresses and fortified defense lines (like the Atlantic Sea Wall, Siegfried, and West Wall...)

And that goes from 1939 to 1950 on the one week per turn... Albeit nuclear bombs... (which could be an option that could be turned on and off)

And...

I'd like to see a system in which both side makes plans instead of you-go i-go system where each player makes a move and then the computer compiles it to make it so both players armies move simultaneously (and depending on the readiness and locational factors determining where and when units will fight)

Kind of like how Combat Mission ( http://www.combatmission.com ) handles there "real time" turn based system

With a slicker interface

But one can only dream <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">