Matrix and no shop sales policy

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Oh and the other problem I have with direct download and even direct sales as far as Matrixgames is concerned is "lack of a manual" with either purchase. In the retail market I am guaranteed at least a nice printed manual to read where and when I wish. PDF files just don't cut it with me either. We pay more for less so to speak. With the "savings" Matrixgames have accomplished with direct download/direct sales they won't even spend a buck to give us a printed manual.

We are actively working to provide a "manual on demand" option. We've posted that several times and are not ignoring these requests. However, it's not as simply to integrate this into "game on demand" as you might think.

What we accomplish with the "savings" is to keep us and our developers in business. Our prices are not outrageous and most are quite affordable.

One more note, I've recently purchased some retail games that did not come with a manual. Registration card, check. Quick reference hotkeys list, check. No manual. Who do I talk to about that? [;)] Overall, I've seen the quality of retail game manuals decline as well. These days, all I really expect is something like a 16-24 page quick start and installation guide since that's what I generally get. A full 100+ page manual is, at least in my retail buying experience, becoming more and more rare.

The above story never happens in a "retail sale", product is right there on the shelf, there's no waiting, no fuss, instant satisfaction in the sale and receipt of goods.

Exceptions can be provided, but they don't prove a rule. We also have a lot of customers very happy with their download and purchase experience through our store. We always work with those customers who have a complaint to make sure it is resolved to their satisfaction.

As to the comment above, I have walked into a retail store many times (often as my main goal on the trip) only to find that an anticipated release was "not in yet" and the release date mentioned the previous week had been changed or that the last copy was bought by someone an hour ago. Who do I talk to about that?

When everything goes right in either model, the customer has a good experience. When it goes wrong, the company or the retail store has to provide support. I don't really see that there's much difference either way, except that retail no longer really supports PC games and they charge an arm and a leg to do business with you for however long they keep your PC game title on the back corner shelf.

Regards,

- Erik

[Reiryc]

You left out one word in that statement "crappy" or not worth retail dollars. Games like "Victoria" by Paradox, yes, ebay all the way, when one can get a fairly newly released game for a "penny", why pay $39.95 or more? All Paradox games rate this wait for ebay way now, not because of the gameplay, because of their production policy of "buy it now, we'll patch it later and in a year and a half it will be playable, but, will be a totally different game".

Well given that you feel few games have a good AI, then the answer to my question is yes?

[Reiryc]

Digital download is great and I love it. It's been a much better experience for me than retail at a store.

[ilovestrategy]

Well take this into consideration. I had never even HEARD of matrix until I bought Grigsby's WaW at Best Buy. Now im looking at 2 or 3 games I want to download or order the disc online.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Zap

Ravinhood, your argument about high cost of DSL is no longer valid. Because of competition prices have dropped drastically. SBC offers it on promotion for 15.00 a month, another company DSLX Extreme also offers it for 15.00 bucks.

In an 'optimum' situation, yeah. Like the first year introductory rate. The introductory first year I've seen from SBC is around $24, but then again also remember that not everyone is close enough to a hub for it to be broadband. I think with a lot of them too, you get that introductory rate the first year, but iof you want to close the account because they jump up the price afterwards you might be looking at $300 or more to get them to shut it off and collect the equipment.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

One more note, I've recently purchased some retail games that did not come with a manual. Registration card, check. Quick reference hotkeys list, check. No manual. Who do I talk to about that? [;)] Overall, I've seen the quality of retail game manuals decline as well. These days, all I really expect is something like a 16-24 page quick start and installation guide since that's what I generally get. A full 100+ page manual is, at least in my retail buying experience, becoming more and more rare.

Indeed. One thing that experience does seem to demonstrate, though, is that good printed manual is something people are prepared to pay for when the option is there. How many people bought "Dangerous Waters" without the superb printed manual? And of the few who did, how many now wish they hadn't?

My guess that is that if a optional manual was available for releases like CotA and Comabt Leader that 90% of purchasers would pay, say, $10-15 extra. It would be good if that was available seperately after the event, too, as you don't always know if a printed manual is needed (I wouldn't buy one for Tin Soldiers, for example).

[U2]

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

Well take this into consideration. I had never even HEARD of matrix until I bought Grigsby's WaW at Best Buy. Now im looking at 2 or 3 games I want to download or order the disc online.

This is what I have always been saying. So many wargamers present here today got hooked in the 60's-80's by finding Avalon Hill, Victory Games, SPI etc in their gaming stores. They are now wargamers and here with us. BUT I do understand that it's impossible to release most of the wargames produced by the PC wargaming industry. So many are not retail friendly and the market is too small for our type of games unless it's something that can attract attention, like WAW.

So I was glad that WAW was released retail since I knew the purpose. We have a chance to sell a good game to a larger audience and spread the word on our hobby and this fine company. The catalogue in the box was indeed VERY NICE.

I hope GG's ACW game goes retail too!

[Skie]

It sounds a bit too much like wishful thinking if you don't think Matrix would take a loss by publishing all/most titles to retail. Wargames are a niche market and I can't imagine anything but the more polished and mainstream titles doing well. As a gamer, there is no way for me to know whether or not a game will be fun based on box art or screen shots on the back of the box. The only way I'd buy a game on a whim, would be if that game was in the bargain bin.

I'd have never even gave more than a glance at the Korsun Pocket box had I not read favorable reviews with pretty screenshots. (At the time, Korsun Pocket was the only wargame I had seen that didn't look like it was made in the 80s.) After I had decided to purchase KP, there were issues of locating a copy to purchase. If I'm going to buy a boxed version of a game, I'd rather purchase it locally than order from Amazon or EB. Had DD been available at the time, I'd have jumped at the opportunity.

I also think the logic of diminished returns caused by DD is flawed. Users who are more likely to purchase things electronically are just as likely to notify their piers electronically. Most people who would be online reading reviews or having discussions would not have a problem purchasing a game via DD. The sales of Half-Life 2 via Steam should be a pretty good indicator of people's willingness to download a game.

The only limiter when going with only DD sales is minors. They either need to have their parents purchase the game via CC or purchase a money order and send it in.

[U2]

ORIGINAL: Skie



The only limiter when going with only DD sales is minors. They either need to have their parents purchase the game via CC or purchase a money order and send it in.

Thats my point too. I've read so many stories about how many of us got hooked into wargaming in our early teens having some parent buy an Avalon Hill game (or other boardgame) in a store. How is that now possible? Will the almost non presence of our hobby (PC and Board) in stores today gradually see to it that the new generations jumping in to our hobby is so few in numbers it will be the end of the hobby in the future?

OR maybe it will be the other way around from now on. Someone will be become a wargamer once he has his own cash and can order online (18+ years old).

For a parent to buy something in a store is understandable. But to say "Hey Dad, give me your creditcard, I want to order a game online!" If some parents would say "no" I would understand.

And yes, they would also have to find out about this company in the first place. How do you reach the young kids of today without spending too much cash we all know Matrix does not have?

I think having a good presence in different history groups/magazines (like mentioned by Joseph) will attract people of all ages drawn to military history.

[Marc von Martial]

many prospective gamers have no clue that this company even exists. I saw the look of curiosity amongst some visitors at Origins ("Who Are These Guys With All The Cool Games?").

Actually at this Origins it was not the "Who Are These Guys" anymore. Most people simply stepped up to the counter and bought a load of our titles.

Of course you allways have people that never heard of us before, but that´s exactly why we go to conventions like this [;)]. We go there to promote ourselfs, show what we have in our portfolio and demonstrate it to prospective customers and people that never heard of Matrix (maybe even wargames) before, you understand [;)]?

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: molotov_billy

ORIGINAL: wodin

Ive no problem with DD in itself. Its a great idea. However there are certain games being developed that I truely believe will attract new wargamers to the fold. Those who are maybe a bit younger who browse around. They see CoG. Have played maybe Imperial Glory ormaybe the RTW mod. Infact they may have enjoyed the RTW game and are on the path to becoming a wargamer. They see the CoG box. Read the back see the screenshots and purchase.

Its a good game so they may check out Matrix webiste. The the world is their oyster. We must remember that not every wargamer knows about Matrix and there is new blood out there. My local Wargaming club many have no idea that you can buy PC wargames!

All Im saying is somegames (not all) may help the hobby by being on the shop floor.

I agree. It appears that's what matrix is doing - it seems that if a title has a chance at making it on the retail market, they put it out. Games that probably don't have a chance are DD only, which is fine.

I really like what matrix is doing here, to be honest. A central place where I can find just about everything to do with PC wargames - purchasing, updating, discussion all in one site/place.

That´s exatly what we are trying to do. Titles that are made for retail, get a retail chance. Other titles will be limited to direct online order only.

Then again, there´s some hobbyshops and special vendors that sell our boxed "DD" titles in their retail shops too. so the board wargame geek will also have a chance to "discover" us. It´s just that for most of this very special wargaming titles it simply does not pay of to put them in mainstream retail like BestBuy for example. It´s not just printing a box and ship them to BestBuy, there´s way more behind the curtain [;)]

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Advertsing on TV is expensive, but a well-developed promo for a showcase game might not be a bad idea. The base problem is intoducing niche products to the general public--Avalon Hill did this successfully back in the 60s by putting their advertisements in comic books--this strategy should not be ignored. This is exactly how I got hooked way back when. This is just brainstorming, so bear with me.

We advertise in:

PC Gamer
Computer Gaming World
Computer Games Magazine
PC4War
Armchair General
WW2 Magazine
WW2 History

and a few more I can´t remember (mostly really specialized magazines). We also run banner campaigns on selected sites. You won´t see our banners on Gamespy then, simply for the fact it´s way to expensive for a decent banner run.

Don´t worry, we do what we can do with regards to advertisments.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Hertston
My guess that is that if a optional manual was available for releases like CotA and Comabt Leader that 90% of purchasers would pay, say, $10-15 extra. It would be good if that was available seperately after the event, too, as you don't always know if a printed manual is needed (I wouldn't buy one for Tin Soldiers, for example).

A side note on this - based on our research, it's actually far less than 90%, but not insignificant. This is why we want to offer a "manual on demand" option, so that customers will be able to choose, at the time of purchase, whether they want a printed manual included in their boxed game or not. This is what we're aiming for as it makes the costs manageable and doesn't force customers who prefer the PDF to pay for a printed manual.

Regards,

- Erik

[superdave56]

I just want to point out a couple of things to those concerned that new wargamers won't be brought into the hobby unless these games are available in retail.

I'm in my late twenties and I dont:
1) Watch TV or
2) Read the newspaper

Why? Its all on the Internet - movies via netflix, news online, etc. And its in a form that is easier for me to obtain at a time of my choosing on my terms.

Even for most Americans my age the Internet is not some new fangled thing - its like air. Its taken for granted and in fact I expect things to be available on the Internet. For children growing up now, the Internet is there from day one. They will eat, sleep, and swim Internet. It will be second nature to them the same way VCRs, color TVs, cars, and inexpensive air travel were to previous generations.

Arguments about broadband are silly. I pay $50/month for cable + Internet and no that is not an introductory price or a special deal (the 1 year intro expired a ways back). This is a small town in WV - not some big metropolis. Think about it - phone line + ISP is going to be $35-40 for dialup (unless you want your home line tied up half the time). Broadband will be ubiquitous in a few years. Now that I've had broadband I wouldn't even bother with dialup. If you can't afford broadband, how much disposable income are you really going to have for games?

I would argue a younger person growing up in our society is more likely to see the equivalent of a "shiny box" (a website, a review, etc.) on the Internet than in a retail store. You can reach more people far more cheaply that way.

Far from destroying the future of wargaming, Matrix (and other publishers) are doing exactly what needs to be done to ensure the future of our hobby. The future is online, not retail.

I am a case in point - I am relatively young (late 20s) with disposable income and with any luck will be pursuing this hobby for many, many years. Its Matrix games and similar publishers who got me back into wargaming after I despaired for many years of finding decent games or a community. I would be lost to the hobby if it were not for Matrix and their distribution model.

[ravinhood]

Ahhh but it's far more likely a youngster 12/13 or even teenage years will have "cash on hand" vs a "credit card", now, you tell me how a 12/13 year old buys direct download product online? Cash certainly doesn't flow over the internet like it does over the counter of a retail store he/she can just walk into and flop down the bucks. So, your 12/13 year old sees matrixgames online, still going to have to go through mom & pop to buy it (and then we have the mistrusting mom & pop that says "no") heh. Hard for a child to "sneak" buying a game over the internet vs doing it retail as well, like they do to get those mature rated games.

[David Heath]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Ahhh but it's far more likely a youngster 12/13 or even teenage years will have "cash on hand" vs a "credit card", now, you tell me how a 12/13 year old buys direct download product online? Cash certainly doesn't flow over the internet like it does over the counter of a retail store he/she can just walk into and flop down the bucks. So, your 12/13 year old sees matrixgames online, still going to have to go through mom & pop to buy it (and then we have the mistrusting mom & pop that says "no") heh. Hard for a child to "sneak" buying a game over the internet vs doing it retail as well, like they do to get those mature rated games.

Ah.. you be surprised how much faster the younger kids are catching on. My best friends 13 son and his friends all have bank accounts (with Dad) and they all have a ATM card with a credit card logo. They can make all of there online and retail purchases from it and get cash when then need it. My friend said they love it since they can't over spend and it allows them not to carry to much cash around. His only problem with it is once or twice a month he needs to take his son to the bank to make a deposit.

The Internet world is truly here and the kids are way ahead of most of the older adults.

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: David Heath


Ah.. you be surprised how much faster the younger kids are catching on. My best friends 13 son and his friends all have bank accounts (with Dad) and they all have a ATM card with a credit card logo. They can make all of there online and retail purchases from it and get cash when then need it. My friend said they love it since they can't over spend and it allows them not to carry to much cash around. His only problem with it is once or twice a month he needs to take his son to the bank to make a deposit.

The Internet world is truly here and the kids are way ahead of most of the older adults.

Might be the case where your from but it certianly isnt the case here in the UK. Especially in the inner city areas. I dont know of anyone in my area who has a PC let alone the internet. Dont overestimate internet usage. Also even if someone has the internet a certain percentage wouldnt buy anything off it due to security paranoia.

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: wodin
I dont know of anyone in my area who has a PC let alone the internet.

Then apart from Lock and Load, I guess they won't be interested in what Matrix has to offer.

[Riun T]

Oh MY GOD,, GENTLEMEN MY head is spinning {forum sencery overload} so many valid pionts to ponder. so I'll tell u my simple story from saskatoon saskatchewan, 39 yo and first had militaristic interests at 5. am the first to my knowledge to have a computer of my own in a family of 4 with about 30 relitives, have what i like to call efficient computer knowledge and only found out about matrix from a sample disc of SPWAW ver. 5.0 in with a computer gammer magizine, I forget the year that was but about the same time as the first generation X box came out because I faught a huge toss up between that and the game cube or a PC advancing from a nintendo 64. All this changed when I met my first microsoft certifyed technician and got to see games like desent and duke nukem, things for me progressed quickly since then, fullll military and career life, pilots licence,just baught the house i've been renting from a corpral in my unit, gonna marry the girlfriend of the last 8 yrs, [compressing] anyway found out after sniffing at things like warcraft,starcraft,age of empires, MEC commander, command and conquer, ALL of the rellivent military FPS'ers from unmentionables like EA games and codemasters,the flight sims the tank sims,the sub sims and even the hypatheticals like DOOM3, FAR cry,and always it ends up with 3/4 of my vast computer time going to SPWAW, I'm talkin 6-8 hrs a night, and it all boils down to the kids are all still mall rats, and I don't put any less or more faith in that alot of the youth thats up and coming around here are smart enough to run SP and as far as I've been able to find only a used copy in box of HTTR at a gametrader story we have, I feel that aside of the 5 or so people I've introduced to matrix that your presance or even knowledge is seldom heard except when I visit this wounderful Forum, and eventhou I'm a little skiddish about DD's I've picked up a cd burner and will definatly be getting generals edition,just can't get over how mutch u can stretch your strategic addictions in how this game keeps u thinkin, plotting sceeming and coniveing. guess its the military speaking right now when I say that I've NEVER been comfortable with giving out CC #'s and personal data but I think this DD idea could be usefull because I,ve never been able to say i've been satisfied with any supposed support that u should be intitled to after u buy any product but Matrix has sold me because of the 8.4 patch I'VE NEVER THOUGHT i'd see the day i would see the day that any game company would be having a place,[these forums] where I could #1 discuss something I felt was lacking or heaven forbid wrong with their product,#2 see the input from GUYS like Marc, and gary[STAFF] conversing with us lowly costomers, AND such a fine job in listening to us Melonheads ACTUALLY GETTING OUT AN UPDATE THAT DIDN"T NEED ANY MIRROR SITE and downloaded to me way out here in 45 min at 110kbps. not bad at all but rest assured that if I get the dd and it don't work I'll be using this site to nag the crap outta you guys till we get it strait.RT

[Rooster]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


A side note on this - based on our research, it's actually far less than 90%, but not insignificant. This is why we want to offer a "manual on demand" option, so that customers will be able to choose, at the time of purchase, whether they want a printed manual included in their boxed game or not.

Great idea. Sometimes, however, I won't buy the manual until after I've owned the game and decided I need a.) I like it, and b.) the manual is worth printing