PBYs

[cookie monster]

So as to give early warning, would a small sub picket line be in order for the front line bases such as Midway etc?

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

So as to give early warning, would a small sub picket line be in order for the front line bases such as Midway etc?

Yes, actually this is what the USN used subs for in 1942 (and Halsey even tried this in 1944).

[Bradley7735]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

So as to give early warning, would a small sub picket line be in order for the front line bases such as Midway etc?

Yes, actually this is what the USN used subs for in 1942 (and Halsey even tried this in 1944).

Subs were used as scouting forces all through the war. The scouting subs actually contributed to the Battle of the Philipine Sea (sinking Taiho and Shokaku), and Leyete Gulf (sinking Atago, Maya, some cripples after (Nachi and a CL, I think), and damaging Takao, Aoba) As the war progressed, first sightings were usually from scouting subs.

After 42, merchant seeking subs would be redirected in the few days before the US expected the Japanese fleet to sortie. But, in 42, they were generally on patrol in the scouting role (not looking for merchants).

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

So as to give early warning, would a small sub picket line be in order for the front line bases such as Midway etc?

Yes, actually this is what the USN used subs for in 1942 (and Halsey even tried this in 1944).

Funny that was mentioned

I have just about the entire Pacific Fleet Sub Force on one long continuous arc from Dutch Harbor down to Johnson as a screen (God knows they can't shoot) and anyway - the only good they have done as scouts is to get attacked by the Japanese as the IJN comes rampaging through the sub picket line on it's way to attack something...the subs never spot or attack, I just know the japs are there because my subs get attacked. Oh well at least that's one expensive way to patrol.

Mind you, they never see anything. Earlier on I had a double line of subs around Wake Is before I evacuated it, and the japs would cruise right across the subs coming and going on their merry way to bombard Wake, the subs never spotted let alone attacked anything.

[Feinder]

Another -VERY- important factor in spotting ships, is sys damage.

Again, everybody likes sprinting around at warp 9. But that annoying sys damage can bite in so many ways. Any sys damage over 10, will increase your chance of detection. The more damaged you are, the easier to detect. Even with no fires (which add to ease of spotting you). But even if you’ve been good, and not run full speed with your CVs, adding a CL that’s got 12 sys damage from running FastTran to your TF, will up the chances of detecting the entire TF.

Granted, out of range, is out of range. Obviously, having 20 sys dmg means nothing if you’re sitting at a range of 15, when max range is 12 (or whatever). But having that extra sys dmg will increase your chance of being detected, that much farther out.

Having long-legged Patrols for Japan is nice. But there’s a price. Check his ops losses. If he’s flying his planes at 25 hexes, he’s probably taking a lot of ops losses, simply due to fatigue.

Max effective range, for anything, is about 10. Fatigue is about 1.5 per hex. Somebody with over 30 fatigue is less likely to fly, and even less likely to survive is he does. But like prev poster said, a lot goes into a mission (even patrols).

a. Watch your moral. Patrols do suffer moral loss! Low moral, means your squadron may never even get off the ground!
b. Fatigue, a unit that is already fatigued, will be less likely to fly, less effective searching, and less likely to return.
c. Experience. Higher exp means better chance to spot, and better info if you do.

Flying a group at 80% search, works fairly well. That puts three pilots in the bull-pen, and 9 out looking for bad-guys. It keeps your fatigue lower and moral higher.

Also to consider for exp, is to run Recon missions, with 80 search. The pilots get a better chance for exp if they actually spot something. But that means that flying patrols in a “quiet” area, means very slow exp gain (since there’s nothing to spot). But flying recon with 80% search, means that those three guys that would normally be in O-club, are on a recon mission, which gives them the better exp gain chance, than just flying and not spotting anything. Note this will fatigue your sqdn faster, since you’ve actually committed 100% of your sqdn, and nobody is sitting out. (* note there has to be an enemy base within range, to actually recon, otherwise, they sit in the O-club).

-F-

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Another -VERY- important factor in spotting ships, is sys damage.

snip....

-F-

Again, good advice and good to know, thanks Feinder.

However, this guy I'm playing against is savy enough not to run his ships ragged...(although one time, much to his chagrin, he left his CVs on max reaction range overnight and the pc chassed a cripple of mine at full speed for a day - and his CVs were out of gas the next game turn. He wasn't a happy camper about that. I was.[:D])

[Tom Hunter]

If you use AVs and AVDs its possible to build a search line with a near double overlap covering most of the Pacific. That gives you a detection zone that is more than 10 hexes wide, and is often 15-20 and you can operate behind that in relative safety.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

If you use AVs and AVDs its possible to build a search line with a near double overlap covering most of the Pacific. That gives you a detection zone that is more than 10 hexes wide, and is often 15-20 and you can operate behind that in relative safety.

Well, actually old boy, I have been doing just that with the AVDs and AVs. And every base operates two PBY squadrons, or is in overlap by the next search unit. With coverage like that I would have thought I was safe...but it isn't working out that way.
Bloody Japanese...

[Mr.Frag]

Also keep in mind due to the longer ranged aircraft that Japan has, the CV's sprint range is not 12. It is 12 + the normal range of the shortest ranged aircraft. [;)]

They don't have to sprint in to the hex of the target, they just need to get into range of the aircraft.

[Terminus]

Another thing. I know Naval Search missions get less effective the farther out they get; does that apply to ASW patrols as well?

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Also keep in mind due to the longer ranged aircraft that Japan has, the CV's sprint range is not 12. It is 12 + the normal range of the shortest ranged aircraft. [;)]

They don't have to sprint in to the hex of the target, they just need to get into range of the aircraft.

Thanks Mr. Frag
Like I noted - they appear four hexes from target.[:@]

[DJAndrews]

In some circumstances (especially where your base is remote) you can use smaller, non combat vessels to run patrols along the perimeter of your PBY search area (in combination with your sub patrols). You don't really need an escort to protect them from subs in such cases and it forces the Japanese to choose between approaching blind through the sub-infested waters or giving away their position through their own patrol aircraft.

Before game allowed all the mixing and matching of patrol aircraft, you could guess that a threat was approaching by telling the type of aircraft that spotted you (you didn't worry about Glens but you did about Alfs and Jakes).

[Halsey]

ASW is only effective at half the normal range setting.[;)]

[Feinder]

Yep,

That's what I was talking about the threat zone being 25. 20 for sprint (including Kaga), plus 4 - 5 extra for Kate/Val range.

And if you really want to be paranoid, add an extra few for reaction radius!

Bleh.

Map edges are nice!
-F-

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Yep,

That's what I was talking about the threat zone being 25. 20 for sprint (including Kaga), plus 4 - 5 extra for Kate/Val range.

And if you really want to be paranoid, add an extra few for reaction radius!

Bleh.

Map edges are nice!
-F-

That's it!

I'm staying in port![X(]

[Feinder]

That's it!

I'm staying in port!

That's actually not a bad idea...

That would be rational thing to do, so of course, I don't...

-F-

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Another -VERY- important factor in spotting ships, is sys damage.

Again, everybody likes sprinting around at warp 9. But that annoying sys damage can bite in so many ways. Any sys damage over 10, will increase your chance of detection. The more damaged you are, the easier to detect. Even with no fires (which add to ease of spotting you). But even if you’ve been good, and not run full speed with your CVs, adding a CL that’s got 12 sys damage from running FastTran to your TF, will up the chances of detecting the entire TF.

Granted, out of range, is out of range. Obviously, having 20 sys dmg means nothing if you’re sitting at a range of 15, when max range is 12 (or whatever). But having that extra sys dmg will increase your chance of being detected, that much farther out.

Having long-legged Patrols for Japan is nice. But there’s a price. Check his ops losses. If he’s flying his planes at 25 hexes, he’s probably taking a lot of ops losses, simply due to fatigue.

Max effective range, for anything, is about 10. Fatigue is about 1.5 per hex. Somebody with over 30 fatigue is less likely to fly, and even less likely to survive is he does. But like prev poster said, a lot goes into a mission (even patrols).

a. Watch your moral. Patrols do suffer moral loss! Low moral, means your squadron may never even get off the ground!
b. Fatigue, a unit that is already fatigued, will be less likely to fly, less effective searching, and less likely to return.
c. Experience. Higher exp means better chance to spot, and better info if you do.

Flying a group at 80% search, works fairly well. That puts three pilots in the bull-pen, and 9 out looking for bad-guys. It keeps your fatigue lower and moral higher.

Also to consider for exp, is to run Recon missions, with 80 search. The pilots get a better chance for exp if they actually spot something. But that means that flying patrols in a “quiet” area, means very slow exp gain (since there’s nothing to spot). But flying recon with 80% search, means that those three guys that would normally be in O-club, are on a recon mission, which gives them the better exp gain chance, than just flying and not spotting anything. Note this will fatigue your sqdn faster, since you’ve actually committed 100% of your sqdn, and nobody is sitting out. (* note there has to be an enemy base within range, to actually recon, otherwise, they sit in the O-club).

-F-

You seem to know a lot about this. So tell me, just why is it that when I set a group on 100% recon or search, I'm fortunate if 10% of them fly? It might be the weather, but I'm pretty sure I've seen this come up in clear weather too.

[erstad]

However, his TFs ALWAYS appear exactly four hexes out and only after they hit me...and I'm not talking about appearing suddenly in front of Midway, or Wake, I mean appearing there and BEHIND Pearl Harbor only 4 hexes out - so he would have had to steam through 2,000+ miles of search area to appear there - not just an overnight full speed dash from PBY extreme range.

Careful about the assumptions. If you have gaps in your coverage KB can circle around to appear behind you, especially if the IJN player is good with oilers.

Also, remember that every time KB disappears it's not necessarily returning to base... In one PBEM, I had KB zig when I think my opponent assumed it zagged, and actually got KB behind his detection line (did a speed run from my last known location to move SE of Canton Island, outside of PBY range or else at the extreme limit, forget which). Was really hunting convoys down there, had Glen-equipped subs scouting all over, but a couple of days later was returning back to Tarawa and tripped over a large (unfortunately empty) convoy. Moral is when KB disappears, see if a speed run could have put it on the other side of your line, if there's only one line of patrols in a given region.