Strat. Map Retreat Bug, with Bonus Bug

[mdesarno]

I'm a new player that just discovered and got the game last week. I patched the game to 1.1 and have just played a couple marathon sessions, enjoying the game very much. Too much. I am soooo tired!

I ran into the bug that I've heard about on other threads in this forum, in which a defeated army retreats into enemy controlled territory rather than friendly provinces with no enemies in them. I wanted to point it out, just in case it was supposed to be fixed in 1.1. Please excuse how long the post is, I'm trying to put all the details I can remember into it so that less questions will have to be asked. Here was the situation:

As previously stated, I was running 1.1. I was playing in the 1792 scenario as Russia. I was in a war against Turkey and had conquered or occupied the first [top] four provinces along the west coast of the Black Sea, where Bulgaria/Romania are. I had my armies in the southern two of the four provinces, and I had garrisons in the northern two. I know the top two provinces were conquered and garissoned. There was a depot in the north province on the coast, which my armies were drawing supply from. I had a single cossack infantry outside the town there, guarding the depot. I was probably still sieging one or both of the southern two provinces I was occupying.

The Turks came at me [again] from their own friendly provinces to the south. I had no troops at all in their provinces [other than the previously mentioned ones and some others across the Black Sea too far away to matter], nor were there any other troops hostile to the Turks in them that I could see. I did not move any troops to Turkish controlled provinces that month. I beat them in the battle and captured several thousand prisoners. The Turk armies retreated to the north into the province where my depot was, brushing aside the single infantry unit that I had there to protect the depot. I had also put them there because after reading the retreat conditions in the code on another forum entry, I thought they would avoid that territory if I had troops in it. Oops! The depot was destroyed and I lost over 10,000 casualties to foraging that month.

Here is the cool bonus bug. The next month, the Turks surrendered to me. I was not sieging their capital, but I had conquered 5 provinces and was sieging a 6th. I had defeated them in many battles and I had a diplomat/spy in Constantinople on the Pressure for Peace mission. I guess it all worked and triggered their surrender. On that month's move, it was the move right after they had just retreated right through my very well manned lines and sacked my depot. This meant they were on their original border with my country, and closer to Russia than me. They then proceeded to charge headlong into Southern Russia! I think the surrender didn't take effect or get announced until the end of the move. I wasn't too worried about it, because I had already seen the message that they had surrendered. So, I created a Treaty of Surrender with my terms, and submitted it for ratification. I sent my troops in hot pursuit, hoping that there would still be some hostilities before they signed the surrender treaty so that I could gratuitously slaughter more of them. But alas, there was no combat. Apparently hostilities cease as soon as they declare their surrender, but they can still move into my territory.

Here is where the real buggy part happens. After the surrender, all my troops had instantly teleported home. I didn't have a problem with this, silly though it is, because I understood that the game was supposed to work that way and many board games I've played are like that too, so I'm used to it. But, THEIR troops stayed where they were, deep in the heart of Russia. And they wouldn't move! They stayed there and there was nothing I could figure out in order to get them to move. They were definitely not units on loan, or anything like that. My surrender terms were just ceding provinces and paying reparations. These uninvited guests stayed there for the entire year of enforced peace without budging. Foraging in my provinces! Harassing my Serfs! The really silly thing about it was that they were at war that year with at least one other Power and they could really have used the troops, but they were "frozen" there. After the enforced peace expired, they went away. My memory is sketchy on this, but I think it was triggered by an event that allowed me to issue them an ultimatum, which they apparently backed down on, because the troops immediately disappeared. The event appeared to be triggered by their presence in my territory after the enforced peace expired. They were stuck there for the entire enforced peace though, and I couldn't think of a way to get rid of them. Even worse, at one point during that time I had some units chasing around revolutionaries in Russia [which was strange, because they kept popping up far from any enemy diplomats/spies even though my national morale was pinned at maximum], and the Turks apparently sacked another one of my depots, also resulting in over 10,000 foraging casualties. It was a pain in the butt.

I don't know if this is a bug too, but I've noticed in Detailed Combat, when units rout and run around, they have a disturbing tendency to always move to the side of the map that is the "enemy" side. They ALWAYS seem to do this, and run right toward enemy lines and past enemy units in good order! They almost always head for the side of the map opposite the one that they started closest to. Isn't there a way to make it so that the routing units will at least try to run away from enemy units in good order? Even better, they should have to run in the direction that parrallels the retreat route they must take on the strategic map.

Other than these things I love this game. It is a blast to play, but I want to see these things and some other items detailed in the forums cleaned up. I agree with other posters, that after a surrender the victor should not get teleported and should have a number of months of access in the conquered country. As for the retreat bug, I was lucky they surrendered that turn. If they had not it would have been totally devastating!

Please keep on developing this game, it is a great game already and it will be one of the top 5 or so strategy classics of all time if these issues are cleared up! Thank you so much for publishing this cool game! [&o]

[ian77]

Welcome to the forum!

The retreats and teleporting are not true bugs, they may bug us but they are doing what they were programmed to do, I think! Hopefully the second planned patch may help.

The reason for the instant teleporting is to prevent situations where troops become immovable.. but it does not always work. I have not had it happen to me since I patched, but maybe that has just been luck rather than a proper fix![&:]

Anyone else still getting trapped units?

Ian

[ericbabe]

If your units get trapped, remember to turn on "violate territory", at least until such time as you move them out. The game is *supposed* to turn it on for you automatically, but there seems to be at least one case where it's not turning on properly.

Surrenders don't negate move orders presently, though this is something we could tweak.

[Hard Sarge]

You know Eric
that might be the bug right there

if the surrender happens before the movement phase, then your troops in there lands are sent flying, but during the movemeny phase, the troops with movement orders are crossing the border, into what they think is enemy land

end of turn, the enforced peace rules take place, and now we got trapped troops

HARD_Sarge

[ian77]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

You know Eric
that might be the bug right there

if the surrender happens before the movement phase, then your troops in there lands are sent flying, but during the movemeny phase, the troops with movement orders are crossing the border, into what they think is enemy land

end of turn, the enforced peace rules take place, and now we got trapped troops

HARD_Sarge

This is exactly the problem... you have to start violating or get them to cede the territory with your troops in to you!

Ian

[mdesarno]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

You know Eric
that might be the bug right there

if the surrender happens before the movement phase, then your troops in there lands are sent flying, but during the movemeny phase, the troops with movement orders are crossing the border, into what they think is enemy land

end of turn, the enforced peace rules take place, and now we got trapped troops

HARD_Sarge

Yes! That is exactly what happened in my game, only it was an AI player that got forces trapped in my territory. So there was no way to force or allow them to get out. They already had movement orders issued before the surrender was triggered, and they carried them out by invading Russia. Then the transport of my troops and enforced peace got triggered. But I couldn't play with the violate settings, because it was their guys not mine. I actually thought of that and tried it but it didn't do anything.

I suggest the following: Delay the trigger of the routine where troops get transported back to home territory at a surrender until after surrender terms are completed, and then only if the victorious nation does not demand access as part of the terms. If they don't demand access, then the troops get sent home as soon as the terms are set and right after any ceded territories have changed hands. Having the option to demand access as part of the surrender terms would give you the option to stay for a while without being frozen or violating neutrality, or you could pass on demanding access and be transported back. It would work better and give the victorious player more options.

In addition, the transport should include BOTH sides' troops in the other sides' lands.

[carnifex]

If you run into enemy troops being trapped in your territory, give them an Access treaty for a couple of months.

[mdesarno]

I should have thought of giving them access. That should work.

How about the retreating on Strat. Map issue? Any plans on a fix for that?

[ian77]

ORIGINAL: carnifex

If you run into enemy troops being trapped in your territory, give them an Access treaty for a couple of months.

They will not always accept access agreements[:(]

[mdesarno]

Maybe I should be starting a new thread, but I was reading the 1.1 patch fixes in that thread and I noticed another thing...

When I was getting surrenders last night in my game, the points for my Terms was at 7500. Says in the 1.1 thread that this should be 4000 or 2000 for limited. I'm running 1.1 as far as I know, it says 1.1 on the main menu screen. This happened 3 times, consistently.

[ian77]

ORIGINAL: mdesarno

Maybe I should be starting a new thread, but I was reading the 1.1 patch fixes in that thread and I noticed another thing...

When I was getting surrenders last night in my game, the points for my Terms was at 7500. Says in the 1.1 thread that this should be 4000 or 2000 for limited. I'm running 1.1 as far as I know, it says 1.1 on the main menu screen. This happened 3 times, consistently.

If you have given them a real hiding and have lots of quality diplomats you get far more VPs to play with.

Ian

[carnifex]

They will not always accept access agreements

throw them some money

[ericbabe]

ORIGINAL: mdesarno

Maybe I should be starting a new thread, but I was reading the 1.1 patch fixes in that thread and I noticed another thing...

When I was getting surrenders last night in my game, the points for my Terms was at 7500. Says in the 1.1 thread that this should be 4000 or 2000 for limited. I'm running 1.1 as far as I know, it says 1.1 on the main menu screen. This happened 3 times, consistently.

4000/2000 is the base amount; there are bonuses to the base...

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: mdesarno

I'm a new player that just discovered and got the game last week. I patched the game to 1.1 and have just played a couple marathon sessions, enjoying the game very much. Too much. I am soooo tired!

I ran into the bug that I've heard about on other threads in this forum, in which a defeated army retreats into enemy controlled territory rather than friendly provinces with no enemies in them. I wanted to point it out, just in case it was supposed to be fixed in 1.1. Please excuse how long the post is, I'm trying to put all the details I can remember into it so that less questions will have to be asked.

Anyone notice the patch notes? I thought this was odd:

Changes 1.00->1.10
--------------------

* Compatible with save files from v1.00

- Adjustments -

* Increased AI run away from detailed combat threshhold
* Tweaked detailed combat AI parameters
* Lowered victory points for surrender to 4000 (2000 for limited surrender)
* Decreased glory awarded for winning a war
* lowered reinforcement maximums:
In home territory, maximum reinforcement is 2000 strength / month
In neutral territory, maximum reinforcement is 1000 / month
In enemy territory, maximum reinforcement is 500/month
* Increased "Artillery Drivers" movement bonus to +3
* Decreased penalty for retreating into enemy territory with no friendly depot
* Lowered combat casualties during night turns
* Increased chance to get new commander to 16% and lowered the casualty requirement to 2,000.
* Enemy units now only disrupt (have a chance to destroy without winning a battle) depots that are located in enemy territory
* In the absence of other criteria, armies should now retreat towards the capital of the team leader.


Shouldnt that be INCREASED the penalty??? Maybe this is whats wrong??? Is this used to keep units from retreating into enemy territory???

[ian77]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka


Anyone notice the patch notes? I thought this was odd:

Changes 1.00->1.10
--------------------

* Compatible with save files from v1.00

- Adjustments -

* Increased AI run away from detailed combat threshhold
* Tweaked detailed combat AI parameters
* Lowered victory points for surrender to 4000 (2000 for limited surrender)
* Decreased glory awarded for winning a war
* lowered reinforcement maximums:
In home territory, maximum reinforcement is 2000 strength / month
In neutral territory, maximum reinforcement is 1000 / month
In enemy territory, maximum reinforcement is 500/month
* Increased "Artillery Drivers" movement bonus to +3
* Decreased penalty for retreating into enemy territory with no friendly depot
* Lowered combat casualties during night turns
* Increased chance to get new commander to 16% and lowered the casualty requirement to 2,000.
* Enemy units now only disrupt (have a chance to destroy without winning a battle) depots that are located in enemy territory
* In the absence of other criteria, armies should now retreat towards the capital of the team leader.


Shouldnt that be INCREASED the penalty??? Maybe this is whats wrong??? Is this used to keep units from retreating into enemy territory???

Anyone have an answer please?

Ian

[Ralegh]

a) I would say the strat map retreat is a new bug - they should be prioritizing their own depots - it sounds like they are also? prioritizing YOUR depots. Eric, put this on the list would ya.

b) Pretty cryptic note isn't it. I think that 'the reduced penalty' means that less troops surrender - it has reduced the no of POW significantly (except for battles in the capital when the loser doesn't have a depot on map)
[HINT FOR HUMANS: If you are fighting for your capital, make sure you have a depot somewhere to give your guys a retreat priority and prevent them surrendering!]

[Mr. Z]

b) Pretty cryptic note isn't it. I think that 'the reduced penalty' means that less troops surrender - it has reduced the no of POW significantly (except for battles in the capital when the loser doesn't have a depot on map)

I'm sure it has to do with the surrender chance, yes.