Old BBs according to Breyer

Warpup · Post by **Warpup** » Sat Jun 09, 2001 7:50 pm

I was browsing in Seigfried Breyer's "Battleships and Battlecruisers 1905 to 1970" and I noticed a few clashes with what I was seeing in PacWar as to availability dates of old BBs operating in the Pacific and Indian Oceans. I'm sure many of you have access to original sources and I don't know how accurate Breyer's work is, but for what it's worth:

Noticed while playing the version 2.2 1941 campaign that Texas and New York arrived sometime in late 1943 (I think). Breyer has these BBs arriving in the Pacific in late 1944 along with Nevada and Arkansas, all in time for action at Iwo Jima in mid-February 1943. Considering the need for fire support in the Atlantic and Mediterranean invasions, I can't see these old BBs being available for Pacific operations untill late '44.

Noticed that the old RN BBs were still around in August of 1944. Breyer says Revenge and Resolution were returned to Britain in September 1943 and taken out of service. He says Ramilles and Royal Sovereign were withdrawn to Britain at the end of 1943. His history of Warspite has that BB escorting a troop convoy from Australia to Britain in February 1943 and never returning to the Indian Ocean. Breyer has Valiant operating with the Eastern Fleet from April 1942 to February 1943 and then again from January 1944 to August 1944. He has Queen Elizabeth with the Eastern Fleet from January 1944 untill July 1945. Breyer has Renown operating with the Eastern Fleet from November 1943 to November 1944. Seems to me these ships are sticking around too long.

Noticed that Colorado starts in San Diego ready for action. Breyer has this BB finishing a conversion at Puget Sound Navy Yard in Bremerton until 31 March 1942.

Haven't played the 1942 campaign, but noticed that Tennessee wasn't available at start and Mississippi was. Breyer has Mississippi on convoy duties in the Atlantic up into July 1942, while sister ships Idaho and New Mexico were transfered to the Pacific in January 1942. He has the following BBs completing repairs from damage at Pearl Harbor as follows: Tennessee, March 1942; California, 31 January 1944; Maryland, February 1942; West Virginia, 4 July 1944; Pennsylvania, 30 March 1942; Nevada, spring of 1943, in time for an operation in the Aleutians 11 to 18 May 1943, but then transfered to the Atlantic.

I don't know how all this agrees with other sources or with the OBs for the various campaigns and senarios of PacWar. But here it is for whatever it's worth... :rolleyes:

Warpup · Post by **Warpup** » Sat Jun 16, 2001 10:12 pm

Was this attempt to start a thread just too boring for everyone? Do I nead to put this info into table format to get any feedback on whether Breyer is correct and whether these arrival and departure times for the old BBs coincides with what is in the OBs for PacWar???

[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: Warpup ]

Major Tom · Post by **Major Tom** » Sun Jun 17, 2001 12:08 am

Well, in my post v2.2 update (which has been lost in my hardrive crash!) I changed around the arrival/starting times for many ships, including battleships. Most of what you posted have been supported by other sources as well.

Warpup · Post by **Warpup** » Sun Jun 17, 2001 2:37 am

Thanks Major Tom. I was feeling neglected. And best of luck to you with the hard drive! Are you going to put out a request for $$$ donations?

Major Tom · Post by **Major Tom** » Sun Jun 17, 2001 4:15 am

Nah, wouldn't do that.

Since a lot of my work is on paper, and since I did it once before, revamping the 2.2 OBC's will not take as long, purely on the basis that all the research is already done.

andrewmv · Post by **andrewmv** » Sun Jun 17, 2001 4:11 pm

I think a word of warning (or two actually) is required when using Breyer. Though his raw technical data is generally quite good, his work has two fairly major limitations. Firstly he did his work in the late 60s and early 70s and since that time a more accurate information has become available. Secondly, a lot of his extrapulations from the raw data are somewhat "inaccurate".

He (IMHO) is best used in conjunction with other, more recent sources (Conway's, Jentschura etc).

Warpup · Post by **Warpup** » Sun Jun 17, 2001 6:54 pm

I have Conway's for ww1 and I really like it, but I don't have Conway's for ww2. Breyer's history sections are really short and not very detailed, and of course are only for BBs. The Conway's I have for ww1 is awesome in that it gives at least the same level of detailed history for ships of all sizes. It's enough data to actually make a game of ww1 naval war.

andrewmv · Post by **andrewmv** » Mon Jun 18, 2001 3:28 pm

Originally posted by Warpup:
I have Conway's for ww1 and I really like it, but I don't have Conway's for ww2. Breyer's history sections are really short and not very detailed, and of course are only for BBs. The Conway's I have for ww1 is awesome in that it gives at least the same level of detailed history for ships of all sizes. It's enough data to actually make a game of ww1 naval war.

Conway's is an excellant point of first call, but it doesn't cover auxilaries such as tankers and transports (though it does cover landing ships curiously). For the 1st WW I also use British Warships 1914-1919 by Dittmar and the Grand Scuttle by van der Vat. For pacwar you can't go past Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy 1865-1945 by Jentschura. Unfortunately, I don't think there's a comparible work on the USN.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:30 pm

If you are looking for a book about Japanese cruisers you should take a look at 'Japanese Cruisers of the Pacific War'

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0870213113/o/qid=992892262/sr=2-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/104-7066475-2580736

Marc

msvknight · Post by **msvknight** » Tue Jun 19, 2001 2:55 pm

I have co-written a set of tabletop World War II naval rules and found the Conway's was an excellent Primary reference. So much more reliable than Fred Janes or the Ian Allan books that I originally had for information. The only problem with them is with the older vessels where the earlier COnways don't cover their later modifications, and the information is a lot harder to glean from the "older ships" information at the start of each countries listing.

Conways also produced a magnificent book on World War II naval weapons (very hard to get hold of) which is also an excellent primary source.

chanman · Post by **chanman** » Sat Jun 23, 2001 8:59 pm

Ok, if I am going to look for the described, I need more information. Can someone post the title of the Conway books? ISBN's?

Randy · Post by **Randy** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 3:31 am

Warpup, I have some info regarding the "Big T" ( USS Tennessee BB-43). After Pearl she went through a minor refit from Jan. to Feb.42. In March 43, she sailed to San Francisco where she participated in patrol duties in the eastern Pacific in case the Japanese were going to invade. It was determined that the Tennessee was too slow to chase Japanese carriers and did not have enough AAA to fight off another air attack. She went through a major rebuild from 8/42-4/43 and emerged with a new look. She now had eight twin 5/38 gun mounts, ten quad 40mm's, and forty-three 20mm guns, for a total of ninety-nine AA guns! She was made to be a bombardment ship with her first action against Japan in the Aleutian Campaign. The Tennessee participated in the major amphibious landings (Tarawa, Marshalls, Iwo, and Okinawa. She also participated in crossing the "T" at Surigao Straits. I know this is probably more than you wanted to know. This is my first time on this post, I'm usually at the Steel Panthers sites. The reason why I was interested was that my dad was on the "Big T" from early 41, to just before the war ended. The info is from "An American Battleship at Peace and War: the U.S.S. Tennessee." Thanks
Sempere Fi
Randy

Don Bowen · Post by **Don Bowen** » Tue Jun 26, 2001 12:02 pm

Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships provides a somewhat uneven overview of the history of all U.S. Warships:
http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/

Don

Major Tom · Post by **Major Tom** » Wed Jun 27, 2001 12:56 am

Here's a good naval site,

Battleships, Carriers and Other Warships.
http://www.warships1.com/

Cmdrcain · Post by **Cmdrcain** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 12:04 am

Originally posted by Warpup:
Was this attempt to start a thread just too boring for everyone? Do I nead to put this info into table format to get any feedback on whether Breyer is correct and whether these arrival and departure times for the old BBs coincides with what is in the OBs for PacWar???

[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: Warpup ]

Theres some problems with arrival dates , through I'm uncertain if british are hardcoded, I did note long ago by setting British ships to Indian and/or Australian ownership they didn't get "pulled"
as to the Old BB's at Pearl, those damaged , depending on damage returned to use depending on in game damage, other BB's may need some tweaks.

Some info can be also Hazy, remember it was wartime so some dates might be fudged,
inaccurate.