PBEM ladder - point system draft

A Ladder is a means to track your success agaisnt a pool of opponents over time. You get points for each game you play, and the better you do, the more points you get! Can you climb the ladder to the TOP? How long can you stay there?

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JanSorensen
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PBEM ladder - point system draft

Post by JanSorensen »

This is a draft and thus comments and suggestions are most welcome. As English isn’t my first language I am likely to have made some spelling/grammar errors – feel free to correct those too. This thread concerns itself solely with the point system - I will draft a procedure for using the ladder and post that in another thread. Hopefully soon (tm).

Before presenting the details of the point system I would like to explain the concerns I had in mind when making the system. Some of this is based on input from others so by no means is the credit all mine - I only reserve the right for any and all blame.

1) Playing should be encouraged.
This is the single most important issue. This led me to give positive points even for loses at the lower ranks and only consider negative points for the already established players. This not to discourage new players right off the bat.

2) Inflation should be kept in check
It should not be prohibitively hard for a new and excellent player to move up on the ladder. Hence I found it important to curb progression on the ladder by negative points for losing at higher ranks and a monthly 1% reduction to avoid a long time player getting an impossible large lead.

3) Playing someone (much) higher on the ladder should have the potential of given more points and reversely playing someone (much) lower on the ladder should yield fewer points. Still, the risk-vs-reward should not be so low that a higher ranked player will avoid lower ranked players – after all playing should be encouraged.

With these 3 in mind I made the following draft. For the procedure on how to report games, which games are rated etc see my other post (coming soon I hope).


Ladder point system

Rule 1: Each player on the ladder has a score that is a whole number equal to or greater than 0 points.

Rule 2: New players to the ladder start at 0 points.

Rule 3: The ladder has 4 rankings.
Entry level rank is 0 – 99 points
Intermediate level rank is 100 – 249 points
Veteran level rank is 250-499 points
Expert level rank is 500+ points

Rule 4: Two-player games
The number of points awarded for a game depends on the rankings of the two players and the result of the game (Decisive Victory, Marginal Victory, Draw, Marginal Loss, Decisive Loss). It is the rankings of the players at the time the game ends that are used for this purpose

Each cell in the chart below shows the number of points you get for each of the 5 different game results.

Example: Gunther and Ivan decide to play a rated game. Gunther is a veteran while Ivan is still intermediate at the time their game end. When the dust settles Ivan has won a marginal victory though. Consulting the chart Gunther looks down to Veteran and then across to Intermediate. Finally, he looks below "ml" for marginal loss and sees that he will gain 0 points from this game. Ivan on the other hand looks down to Intermediate, across to Veteran and below "mv" (marginal victory) and rejoices as he gains 12 points. If the game had instead ended in a draw Gunther would have gained 3 points and Ivan 8.

Rule 5: Multi-player games
If several players are present on either side then you average the current scores of the players on that side and use that average to determine what rank the side has. Each player on each side then gains the number of points indicated by the chart based on that rank and the result of the game.

Rule 6: At the end of each month every player on the ladder is deducted 1% of his current score. The deduction is rounded down to nearest whole number so Entry level players do not lose anything to this while Expert players lose 5 or more points.


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lkendter
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RE: PBEM ladder - point system draft

Post by lkendter »

It should not be prohibitively hard for a new and excellent player to move up on the ladder. Hence I found it important to curb progression on the ladder by negative points for losing at higher ranks and a monthly 1% reduction to avoid a long time player getting an impossible large lead.
The 1% penalty is atypical for any ladder I have seen. However, to fix this the loss penalty needs to be higher.


Is the level based on your standings when the game started, or you current standings?

Here is an example why I ask:
I start 10 games at entry level, and win my first 4 as decisive against expert. I now have 100 points. When the next game ends, am I still entry (as I started the game), or intermediate (my current rank)?

Your system doesn't clarify if this when the rank increase takes effective. Does it change for future starts? Are your current starts effected by the rank change?
Since you don't talk about posting starts, I suspect you are doing an end game rank adjustment. It should be spelled out.

JanSorensen
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RE: PBEM ladder - point system draft

Post by JanSorensen »

Thanks for the input.

Rule 4 states: "It is the rankings of the players at the time the game ends that are used for this purpose" so I think you merely missed that. If its still not clear enough then please do say so though so it can be clarified.

I envision that the ranking changes at the very moment one game ends. So, the next game you finish would be considered at your new rating. I think this is the only way to avoid someone "tricking" the system by starting 50 games as Entry level to get a huge number of points. Also, two games cannot end at the same time. One of them will be before the other.

I am not sure what you mean with the comment about the 1% reduction. Do you think it is a bad idea - or not enough?
lkendter
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RE: PBEM ladder - point system draft

Post by lkendter »

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen

Thanks for the input.

Rule 4 states: "It is the rankings of the players at the time the game ends that are used for this purpose" so I think you merely missed that. If its still not clear enough then please do say so though so it can be clarified.
I somehow missed that. Probably something that next to stand out. If I missed it, you know another player will.

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen
I am not sure what you mean with the comment about the 1% reduction. Do you think it is a bad idea - or not enough?
I think it is a bad idea. If I was doing really well I don't want a time penalty.
To eliminate the 1% penatly, you would need up the cost of a loss.
Have you seen the scoring system used in A&A play?


JanSorensen
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RE: PBEM ladder - point system draft

Post by JanSorensen »

The reason behind the time penalty is that otherwise someone can get to 500 points and then simply stop playing at no loss. Thus making the penalty on losing a game larger would not have the same effect. As it is - 1% each month is not much imho.

I did look at a couple of other ladder systems - some use a zero sum system while others have no inflation control at all. I opted for what I think is a happy medium. I dont think I looked at the A&A system specifically though.

Good point that the part about the end of game needs to stand out. I will take that to heart.
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aletoledo
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RE: PBEM ladder - point system draft

Post by aletoledo »

the points seem fine to me. I question the need for a reduction over time, which just adds overhead to the maintenance of the ladder. if someone has reached 500 points to reach "expert", which represents a minimum of 20 reported games, I think we can spot him the 5 point penalty every month! :)

keep it simple.
JanSorensen
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RE: PBEM ladder - point system draft

Post by JanSorensen »

Fair enough. Unless someone else speaks up in favor of the 1% thing I will drop that. I just liked the idea personally :)
lkendter
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RE: PBEM ladder - point system draft

Post by lkendter »

What I don't see is a discussion on game standardizing. Are no supply, auto-supply and moving trucks the same type of game?


I think a standardize bidding system would help.
VitP and WaS give up victory points to get allies.
A&A games general give extra cash to help the weaker side.

What would be the equalizer in the ladder?
JanSorensen
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RE: PBEM ladder - point system draft

Post by JanSorensen »

From the post on procedures - I am sure you read it already but let me quote:

"It will also explain that the ladder is meant for rating WaW games that are played PBEM or TCP/IP by humans. No game including the AI will be allowed. The intention is for the ladder to rate games that are played using the 1940 scenario. House rules of various kinds including +supply, +rail cap or a full mod is allowed but should be noted when the game is reported."

I will probably make a suggested method of "bidding" that includes +supply - but its up to the players to decide how they want to do it; including playing moderated scenarios. Keep in mind - this isnt the world series so 100% perfect fairness is neither needed nor really desired. Afterall, the main goal is to play the game - and its a ladder rather than a tournament.
MrQuiet
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RE: PBEM ladder - point system draft

Post by MrQuiet »

Fair enough. Unless someone else speaks up in favor of the 1% thing I will drop that. I just liked the idea personally :)

I like it, and I would even make it more like 5% or 10% to "keep em playing" if they want to maintain there rank. Ok 10% seems a bit high but 5% is only 1pt for a player with 20pts and 30 for a player with 600pts.

Another option could be a penalty for not reporting any games for a certain period like 60 or 90 days.

-MrQuiet
JanSorensen
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RE: PBEM ladder - point system draft

Post by JanSorensen »

30 pts is alot of points if you look at how few points are gained in an Expert game (2 points per player).

Maybe a reduction if someone reports no games in a longer while as you suggest would be an idea though.
MrQuiet
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RE: PBEM ladder - point system draft

Post by MrQuiet »

30 pts is alot of points if you look at how few points are gained in an Expert game (2 points per player).

You are correct about that. I had quickly looked at the chart and saw a lot of double digit pts. Maybe having your ladder score reduced for inactivity is the way to go then.

-MrQuiet
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aletoledo
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RE: PBEM ladder - point system draft

Post by aletoledo »

what do people think about a "active" and an "inactive" roster, instead of a point reduction system. I think instead of Jan (or whomever) having to recalculate peoples scores on a daily, weekly or even monthly basis, we just have two rsoters. one roster is for current players (a reported game in the past 30/60/90 days) and an inactive roster.

though Jan isn't concerned about the time involved in keeping things up-to-date, it will be more likely to succeed the easier it is to implement.

thoughts?
JanSorensen
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RE: PBEM ladder - point system draft

Post by JanSorensen »

That sounds like a most reasonable idea to me. 90 days with no finished game would seem good to me.
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