Scenario with Finns

[IBTyrone]

ORIGINAL: Puukkoo

Okay guys, I sent you both a package. Let's hope it works. Report here if you don't have it yet.

I got it Puukkoo. I will have to wait until tomorrow at work to download the file cause all I have is a dialup connection at home and the large download kills it. I'll let you know when I get it installed.

[Puukkoo]

Sounds good.

I have also played that Das Reich Campaign and currently I am at Kharkow. I remember Poland was rather tough going with all those fortifications. I patiently advanced with infantry all over the front and moved my tanks and the 88mm's to where they were needed. Some direct hits from the tank guns reduced the effectiveness of the Polish fortifications. I used Artillery to suppress the nastiest opponents when they fired at us. (My infantry tactics were perhaps more from the American Civil War than WW2, but it worked). My Spec Ops took the village behind the forts.

[IBTyrone]

Why are both you guys near Kharkow? Does the scale of battle get huge at that point and things slow down?

I tried to get fancy and flank the forts, but I think your brute force attack up the middle is just as effective in the fort scenario. I'm going to try and finish it now.

[Major_Mess]

You pegged it IB

I'm (I won't call it stuck) still at Kharkov, about 15 or so turns in on a 60 turn monster. It's all good though, just a little larger than what I'm used to. I chip away at it, a turn or so a week ................ I figure I'm not in a race.
And I like to mull over my moves (ie - I fuss too much about what I'm doing.)



Concerning the Forts.

Smoke 'em big time.
Sneek up then pound them with everything you got before crossing the wire to assault them.

I swung all my armour to the top of the map through the bush and attacked the town behind the second fort in force. Can't remember if I pulled off a DV on that one ...................... probably not.


Major Mess

[Korpraali V]

There are multiple battles near Kharkov. I've just fought first one. Seems that there are several battles still to come. This is the time my SS-men really need luck and skills, because we are still mostly running with Pz-IIIs and Pz-IVs and the enemy has several T-35s and KV-1s... [:(]

pingggg... pingggg.... pingggg...

Have to get some kats and fast...


I've enjoyed all the fights so far. And used lots of smoke. Although in some scenarios I've found after the battle that some enemy troops headed wrong direction and never took part on the fight.



In this Finnish campaign it looks like we may have virus problem.

[IBTyrone]

ORIGINAL: Major Mess

You pegged it IB

I'm (I won't call it stuck) still at Kharkov, about 15 or so turns in on a 60 turn monster. It's all good though, just a little larger than what I'm used to. I chip away at it, a turn or so a week ................ I figure I'm not in a race.
And I like to mull over my moves (ie - I fuss too much about what I'm doing.)

Crap. Thanks for the tip, Major. I was afraid of that. 60 turns? I don't think I've ever played a scenario over 35 turns. I'm gonna die.

Concerning the Forts.

Smoke 'em big time.
Sneek up then pound them with everything you got before crossing the wire to assault them.

I swung all my armour to the top of the map through the bush and attacked the town behind the second fort in force. Can't remember if I pulled off a DV on that one ...................... probably not.

If it's any consolation, it sounds like you and I did the exact same thing. I was surprised at how well both forts were defended from the rear. I managed to end it in 15 turns (the first time I've had a fight end early) and got the DV. Great map, though, and a good challenge. Those random mines were a pain in the arse!

[IBTyrone]

ORIGINAL: Korpraali V

There are multiple battles near Kharkov. I've just fought first one. Seems that there are several battles still to come. This is the time my SS-men really need luck and skills, because we are still mostly running with Pz-IIIs and Pz-IVs and the enemy has several T-35s and KV-1s... [:(]

pingggg... pingggg.... pingggg...

Have to get some kats and fast...

I know it's early, but I do not look forward to running into Russian armor. I have 5 Pz IVs, but they won't get it done at Kharkov. Do you have any 88s? If so, are they effective in this campaign?

I've enjoyed all the fights so far. And used lots of smoke. Although in some scenarios I've found after the battle that some enemy troops headed wrong direction and never took part on the fight.

Smoke is my friend. I wish I had something more substantial at generating smoke than the 81s, but they are better than nothing. And they seem to run out of smoke ammo so fast. [;)]

[Puukkoo]

Well, Korpraali V

I ran a virus-killer and then tried to upload my re-zipped campaign file into hotmail, but it claimed that the zip had a virus. I have been unable to locate this with the Norman Virus Control, but instead they claim that hotmail is more clever than ever. In this case I think they're too clever. I still try to solve this mystery.

[Korpraali V]

My core force is almost as suggested:

-1 SS Rifle Co
(50mm mortars changed to 81mm's)
-Pz Platoon
-FO
-Ammo carrier (halftrack from Cze OOB)

so no 88's and flame tanks if not in AUX units. 88's are more effective than other guns but even they don't always penetrate KV-1s.

But before KVs and T-34s you have to face French and British armors. They are tough too (Matildas and Chars).

81s are very good when adjanced to Ammo carrier[:)]. I have now changed them to 251/2s (halftracks with mortars). With experience they've got their delaying time is now 0.2. And FO can be carried by Ammo carrier --> fast artillery force [:D]

[IBTyrone]

ORIGINAL: Puukkoo

Well, Korpraali V

I ran a virus-killer and then tried to upload my re-zipped campaign file into hotmail, but it claimed that the zip had a virus. I have been unable to locate this with the Norman Virus Control, but instead they claim that hotmail is more clever than ever. In this case I think they're too clever. I still try to solve this mystery.

I forwarded it to my Yahoo account which the Norton scan didn't pick up a virus. Also, you sent it to my spwaw.com email account originally, and I know Bernie has pretty good virus checkers on it because it flagged some of my stuff inadvertantly in the past. Lastly, I sent it to my work account and downloaded it to my computer and ran up to date Sophos on it--which came back clean. So either hotmail is hyperactive in the virus scan, or you don't have a virus.

I did *not* run a spyware detection program on it.

[IBTyrone]

ORIGINAL: Korpraali V


My core force is almost as suggested:

-1 SS Rifle Co
(50mm mortars changed to 81mm's)
-Pz Platoon
-FO
-Ammo carrier (halftrack from Cze OOB)

so no 88's and flame tanks if not in AUX units. 88's are more effective than other guns but even they don't always penetrate KV-1s.

But before KVs and T-34s you have to face French and British armors. They are tough too (Matildas and Chars).

81s are very good when adjanced to Ammo carrier[:)]. I have now changed them to 251/2s (halftracks with mortars). With experience they've got their delaying time is now 0.2. And FO can be carried by Ammo carrier --> fast artillery force [:D]

Very nice. I like the Ammo carrier. I have an ammo canister (I'm using Alby's mod--it gives a little better "flavor" by using German names for the units.

I know Das Reich was an SS division. I cut corners at initial purchase and created some holder slots by using pack mules and trucks to get some additional slots for arty and tanks. I've gradually been replacing the pack mules and trucks each battle. I still only have one platoon of Pz IVs and a section of Pz IIIs, but all the trucks have been replaced by halftracks. Zoom.

[Korpraali V]

It seems that Pvt Hotmail was shooting the shadows. Sgt F-secure found nothing. Pvt Hotmail goes to check his eyes and Pvt 2ndAddress takes his place... Men, back to sleep!

[Puukkoo]

Good to hear that!

They seem to have at hotmail.com a little too over-zealous firewall.

It's like those guards in the Monty Python: "Not to leave the room, even if you come and get him."

"No no, until I come and get him."

[Korpraali V]

ORIGINAL: IBTyrone

Very nice. I like the Ammo carrier. I have an ammo canister (I'm using Alby's mod--it gives a little better "flavor" by using German names for the units.

I know Das Reich was an SS division. I cut corners at initial purchase and created some holder slots by using pack mules and trucks to get some additional slots for arty and tanks. I've gradually been replacing the pack mules and trucks each battle. I still only have one platoon of Pz IVs and a section of Pz IIIs, but all the trucks have been replaced by halftracks. Zoom.

Evolution of mules... [:D]
There usually are some HTs or trucks when you need them. Sometimes you can use tanks but that is always a risk. But yes, using German names would be a good idea. I've rewritten all the names so I can easily find out which unit is which.

Major Mess: did you get DV?

[IBTyrone]

Korpraali, are you still at Kharkov? I'm still in the first battle in France (the bloody night attacks on the road) and the blood has been flowing, unfortunately. I've managed to get reinforcements to most locations now so the situation is stabilizing.

[IBTyrone]

ORIGINAL: Puukkoo

Okay guys, I sent you both a package. Let's hope it works. Report here if you don't have it yet.

Hey Puukkoo.

Finished the first scenario last night and managed a DV.

Core comments:

I went pretty much with your suggested core:

1 HQ
1 FO
1 Coastal Co. - HMGs
1 Ski Co. - HMGs
1 Engineer section
1 ErP section
2 81mm mortar sections
2 75mm Inf Guns
2 Komsomolets (to transport the Inf guns)

I enjoyed playing Finnish troops for the first time. I spent a lot of time wandering through the OOB checking out the different options. I still don't know what sissi-squads are, but in the States, the term sissy carries different connotations. [;)]

Regarding the Finnish OOB and it's relation to this campaign--the Komsomolets are mis-priced. 6 points is ridiculously cheap for an armored carrier with an MG. A pack mule costs 15. I assume you guys have addressed that issue in the Finnish OOB discussions over at the SPWAW Depot? Also, the 76 RK 27 InfGun is also ridiculously cheap for what you get. For only 20 points you get a gun that has a penetration value of 94? That almost has to be a misprint, because that is better than most ATGs, especially for that period of the war.


Battle AAR:

I dropped a bunch of smoke in front of the first row of victory hexes and sent the Coastal Co. in on a frontal assault. I positioned the Ski troops below and sent them in a flanking movement up the hill. I sent the engineer section in with the coastal company and the ErP and Komsomolets (w/loaded infantry guns) with the ski company.

After the initial smoke barrage, I began to use the mortars in a creeping barrage directly in front of the coastal company working my way up the hill. Even still, when a coastal squad met up against a Soviet Ski squad, the coastal squad got the worst of it. The mortars did not do that good of a job surpressing the Soviets. It was only through concentrated numbers of coastal squads that I was able to push the Soviet Ski squads back. I started running out of ammo on the mortars around turn five but by that time, I had taken the front row of victory hexes and was making my way toward the second row, so I started using my mortar ammo more conservatively from that point on. I still used the 75mm OB Howitzer batteries whenever they were available. With the plentiful target hexes, I was always able to get response times around .3 from the OB artillery.

My ski troops encountered little resistance on the flank until reaching the top of the hill around turn six. One of the squads stumbled on a MG bunker and was shot up pretty good, but was able to retreat in good order. I immediately followed up with lots of smoke from my mortars which limited the effectiveness of the pillbox and allowed my komsomolet to get behind it with the infantry gun. However, the bunker started calling artillery down on itself and ended up destroying my komsomolet and forcing the crew of my inf gun to retreat. Around turn 12 my ErP squads finally reached the top of the hill, were able to get behind the bunker and destroy it.

After the ski troops topped the hill around turn seven, they spread out and found another MG bunker on the back side of the hill. I moved my other Komsomolet/Inf gun behind it and the same thing happened as with the other bunker--mortar fire was dropped on our head once again forcing the crew to abandon the gun, but this time I moved my Komsomolet away to keep it from getting destroyed. I moved my ski troops close to the victory hexes around the top of the hill (but not taking them all) and waited for the Coastal squads to finish their work on the frontal assault.

By turn 8 or so, most of the lower victory hexes had been taken by my coastal squads. Just prior to this (around turn 6) I remembered that I had sledges behind my mortar park and began to move them into action. I moved four to support the coastal troops and 4 toward the top of the hill. The sledges showed up in support of coastal troops just in time to help mop up the remaining Soviet ski troop defenders.

So, at turn 10, I moved my ski troops onto the victory hexes on top of the hill and then moved them to defensive positions for the inevitable counterattacks. By this time I had also taken all the lower victory hexes and moved the coastal squads into defensive positions as well.

Over the course of the next four turns the Soviets counterattacked furiously and continued to lay down lots of mortar fire, particularly on my defenders at the back of the hill, but I was able to shift around ski troops in support of one another to deal with hotspots so usually my guys were defending from better terrain and outnumbered the enemy 2 or 3:1. On the flanks on the lower victory hexes, the top section got hammered by counterattacks and because the coastal squads don't move as well as the ski troops so reinforcements were harder to bring into play--but they held.

Battle comments:

I enjoyed this scenario and found it very challenging. Most challenging was the lack of movement out of any of my troops except the ski troops. Their mobility definitely makes them the MVPs of this scenario. Most of my coastal squads only could move one hex at a time when slogging up the hill. The Soviet Ski squads were also tough nuts to crack. I lost three squads total to Soviet ski troops and a Komsomolet to a Soviet artillery barrage. I couldn't rebuild all my losses due to only 25 points available to rebuild. I only rebuilt two ski squads and did not rebuild the Coastal squad or the Komsomolet I lost. We'll see how that affects my forces in the second battle.

Although I tweaked the recommended core slightly (with the addition of the Kosmolets and Inf guns) they didn't have any impact in the final outcome. I wasn't sure what kind of armor to expect and didn't want to rely solely on infantry to stop any armor I might run up against. I think in the second scenario (a defense) my 76mm guns will see much more action.

Scenario comments and suggestions:

Wow! What a huge map! I was wondering why I didn't break their morale and after looking at the enemy map after the first battle I can see why I didn't. If some of those other troops would have made it to the battlefront, I would have done much worse.

Have you considered adding mines? It definitely would help slow down the advance and add that "gotcha" factor that you face when mines are in play.

Probably the biggest issue for me was that there were too many pre-plotted artillery targets available. With 10 the 75mm off-board batteries were probably more effective than they should have been (when they were available). I think the number of targets available is a function of map size (and mission) so I'm not sure you can reduce them. Given the relatively small battlefront respective to the map size, four pretargets would have been sufficient, I think, since most of my artillery was of the fast-response on-board variation anyways.

What is the point of the sledges? I can't believe I forgot they were part of the scenario. They only carry eight (most of my squads were 10), they don't have any armor and are relatively easy to destroy. A rifle shot from a Soviet ski squad destroyed the one I lost. The description says they have a flamethrower but it was never used when I attacked the Soviets ski squads in mop up duty. I never tried a sledge on a MG pillbox, so maybe the flamethrower is reserved only for armored vehicles.

I also never used the 20mm AA guns. I'm not sure what they are on the map for either. Does one of the future battles have planes? They are too heavy for the sledges (although my Komsomolets could carry them) but I would rather carry my Inf guns than the AA guns. If I wouldn't have had the Komsomolets I wouldn't have had the option to move them at all?

Overall I really enjoyed the battle. Everything functioned well with no major problems that I could see. I will start on the second battle tonight (while still getting a turn or two in on Das Reich).[:D]

[Korpraali V]

IBTyrone

I'm still in Kharkov... Haven't played it since last comments. I went through this campaign and posted my feedback to Puukkoo. Don't tell everything to all who read this, let them have few surprises when playing this by themselves [;)]

But, wellcome to Finnish front!
Here the winter is cold, enemy's life short and own casualties must be kept as low as possible. Those 25 points reflect that very nicely. Good work Puukkoo!

If I remember right those sledges took mortars near the island and provide supply forward and carried the wounded back. Finns couldn't afford giving many trucks for this kind of mission. Those would also be too good targets for enemy airplanes. But flamethrowers?? Couldn't find any.

The prices should definately be fixed. The Depot is waiting for the information about the next patches and won't do any changes now.

Erillinen Pataljoona 4 (Separate (or Independent) Battalion 4) was Finnish long range unit. They were making all kinds of commando operations far behind enemy lines (also former Finnish president 1982-94 Mauno Koivisto was one of them - under the command of Lauri Törni/Larry Thorne). Sissi-troops were also commando troops, but were for shorter range hard fighting operations nearer the frontlines (for example in Winter War cutting the enemy supply lines and separating their troops from anothers). And finally Blitz-troops were for destroying enemy strongpoints at the same time when the direct assault begins.
(Correct me if I remember something wrong)

So, for this mission, Blitz-squads would be the best choice.

About the artillery: Before the war and during the Winter War Finland lacked artillery and artillery ammo. So the training based on the fact that every shell had to hit. And the targets had to be counted fast. In this campaign the amount of pre-plotted targets is because of the map size, but can be seen also in other way... [;)]

Playing with Finns teaches to use infantry-mortar combinations. And Finnish infantry is quite well prepared to assault tanks.

Again, wellcome to Finnish front! Hope you enjoy, I enjoyed this one alot!

Puukkoo: You have to cover the flanks! [;)][:D][:D]
More scouts or something...

[IBTyrone]

ORIGINAL: Korpraali V

I'm still in Kharkov... Haven't played it since last comments.

Good. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to catch up. [;)]

I just finished the first battle in France and am now to the infamous "Two Bridges" scenario. If I am lucky, I may be able to knock it out this weekend.

I went through this campaign and posted my feedback to Puukkoo. Don't tell everything to all who read this, let them have few surprises when playing this by themselves [;)]

I hear you. I'll PM my next round of feedback to him.

But, wellcome to Finnish front!
Here the winter is cold, enemy's life short and own casualties must be kept as low as possible. Those 25 points reflect that very nicely. Good work Puukkoo!

I've been reading the Das Reich comment thread over at the Depot and folks were saying that having 300 points to rebuild after each battle is too much. After playing Puukkoo's first scenario, I'm inclined to agree. Although I *love* having enough points to upgrade my core as I play through the campaign, it makes for a hard decision when you are choosing between rebuilding your coastal troopers or your ski squads. Ugh.

If I remember right those sledges took mortars near the island and provide supply forward and carried the wounded back. Finns couldn't afford giving many trucks for this kind of mission. Those would also be too good targets for enemy airplanes. But flamethrowers?? Couldn't find any.

It was listed as the fourth weapon on the sledge. I have Alby's mod installed, and since the sledges appear to be based on modified T-34 tanks, Alby's mod may be doing funny things with it. If Puukkoo didn't put flamethrowers on them (which I doubt he would) it probably is a problem due to the mod--especially if you weren't seeing the same thing.

The prices should definately be fixed. The Depot is waiting for the information about the next patches and won't do any changes now.

I've been heavily involved in the Italian OOB where work has come to a standstill, but was wondering if you and Puukkoo had done any work on the Finnish side of things there. Do you think I should at least post those aberrations at the Finnish OOB forum so they get addressed down the road?

Erillinen Pataljoona 4 (Separate (or Independent) Battalion 4) was Finnish long range unit. They were making all kinds of commando operations far behind enemy lines (also former Finnish president 1982-94 Mauno Koivisto was one of them - under the command of Lauri Törni/Larry Thorne). Sissi-troops were also commando troops, but were for shorter range hard fighting operations nearer the frontlines (for example in Winter War cutting the enemy supply lines and separating their troops from anothers). And finally Blitz-troops were for destroying enemy strongpoints at the same time when the direct assault begins.
(Correct me if I remember something wrong)
So, for this mission, Blitz-squads would be the best choice.

Sounds good to me. The specific functions make sense. I'm not sure why I chose ERP4 squads. I think the number of men (12) in conjunction with the speed of movement made the decision for me.

About the artillery: Before the war and during the Winter War Finland lacked artillery and artillery ammo. So the training based on the fact that every shell had to hit. And the targets had to be counted fast. In this campaign the amount of pre-plotted targets is because of the map size, but can be seen also in other way... [;)]

Playing with Finns teaches to use infantry-mortar combinations. And Finnish infantry is quite well prepared to assault tanks.

I didn't know either of those facts. Thanks for the background. If I would have known that ahead of time, I probably would have backed off on the extra mortar section and went ahead with the blitz squad.

Again, wellcome to Finnish front! Hope you enjoy, I enjoyed this one alot!

Puukkoo: You have to cover the flanks! [;)][:D][:D]
More scouts or something...

I think he's right, Puukkoo. At least that bottom flank where we deploy. My ski troops just went crazy up that slope. A Soviet ski squad placed here and there would have definitely slowed things down. Mines wouldn't have hurt either, especially in the gaps in the rocks. Good job on the scenario! I should get through #2 this weekend.

[Korpraali V]

ORIGINAL: IBTyrone

Good. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to catch up. [;)]

No prob, I'll waite [>:]
[;)][:D][:D]

Yeah, those flamethrowers seem to be result of the mod. Not bad for the horsedrivers [:D]

I've been heavily involved in the Italian OOB where work has come to a standstill, but was wondering if you and Puukkoo had done any work on the Finnish side of things there. Do you think I should at least post those aberrations at the Finnish OOB forum so they get addressed down the road?

Wouldn't do any harm. Have posted some things, but not these. I couldn't find Mattenhof's and others posts about this either.

Carry on, and let also me know how you're doing. Will post you back somekind of AAR.

[IBTyrone]

Hey guys.

Korpraali, I double-checked the flamethrowers on the sledges--they have zero ammo. There is also another MG in the second weapons slot, but it also has no ammo so neither weapon ever fires.

I finished battle #2 over the weekend. I'll PM an AAR and some comments to the both of you so as to not give any secrets away.

Jeff