3 years and nothing changed

[soldier]

Well i was hoping to see more "war" from the minor nations and less surrender en masse thats for sure. If I want a more balanced perspective of the minors nations I'll play H2H. If I wan't Master race vs Inferior Subhuman Romanian I'll play 8.4.
Like I said before your choices in combat should determine a result not someones prejudged opinion on how a nation performed in history be that opinion right or wrong.

[Wild Bill]

Nice of you to reply, Andrew. I can change the settings myself for scenarios and campaigns to better fit the real tenor of the troops but the coding issues and OOB reconstruction is out of my league.

If you can provide me with some information about some battles in which Romania was involved, I'll try to put together a scenario that mirrors the action of your countrymen as it should be.

WB

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: Goblin

I think this is where we are supposed to waste time posting all the times theses nations fought and did not run or sit there (probably the majority), and have nothing changed. I'm not going to bother.

KG, its a wargame, not a war documentary.



Goblin

By your definition, then, every nation should be equal? The Bulgarians should have an equal chance to conquer Europe and challenge America?

Ok, then, I've got a game for you--Medieval: Total War.

I've got it, and frankly, I love it -- you can plan strategy, AND fight tactical battles.

Now, back to SPWaW -- Goblin, I understand that you regard SPWaW as a fun game. Yes, it IS.

[Wild Bill]

Never had so much fun in gaming as I've had with this jewel, Gunny. That is what it is all about. Gob called it well and I think we all agree. That is one of the reasons we're still here.

It is a classic!

WB

[AndrewC]

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood
Not given greatly to debate, will post on topic this once. Historic values were evaluated and included in game. If disagree with values or feel no fun, fine. Do not use them. Set experience manually. That is purpose of option.

Bullshit. The ratings you and Gary created contain as much historical truth as fiction. I have yet to see proof that some sort of criteria was established to determine the ratings instead of arbitrarily choosing a value. I'm starting to think that you randomly hit the keyboard in a fit of anger when assigning the new values. Beside being historically inaccurate, the new ratings also made the game next to unplayable on the Romanian side. Infantry always flees at the sight of incoming tanks, they are impossible to rally once shot at, they get very few shots, etc. I'm not going to waste your precious time anymore, but just out of curiosity, can you come up with several examples of romanian troops performing this bad? If you do, please let me know: jagdpanther86@hotmail.com

Not to say SPWaW is not a great game. If major participants are your thing, this is the game to have. Otherwise, look elsewhere.

[rlc27]

Hi all,

I've been absent from these forums for a long while, but it's fall and fall always makes me think of the Hurtgen Forest and the Battle of the Bulge, which leads to getting out my old wargames. ANYWAY. I had to post in this thread after having read the whole thing.

Andrew, the choice that is put before you seems to be either to continue to gripe at a game that is completely free and open to your own interpretation, or to look elsewhere as you've said. The community here is VERY open to your suggestions, but they keep getting posted in such a brash manner that is well within the boundaries of pretty harsh nationalism combined with immaturity. You have not only argued for your cause, which I think is noble, but have also insulted those who put the time and effort into this game--even those who are sympathetic to you.

Now I have no problem whatsoever with your issues with the game, but as multiple posters have pointed out, you can change them however you want. That's the beauty of the open architecture included with the design. And for some reason that brash language you keep using never leaves, even after you apologized, which makes your apology seem rather hollow.

If you have some plan in mind as to how to change this, then do so! Work on the OOB's, and then submit them as a mod to the game! It's a pretty open community!

If you've another game in mind that models things in a way that is closer to what you'd like, then by all means go there, but sitting around doing nothing but responding angrily to people's attempt to help you just makes you look obnoxious.

Honestly, if this was a $50 game I could see it being more of an issue, but I don't know of ONE game design company that would respond favorably to all these insults you've posted.

[Goblin]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

ORIGINAL: Goblin

I think this is where we are supposed to waste time posting all the times theses nations fought and did not run or sit there (probably the majority), and have nothing changed. I'm not going to bother.

KG, its a wargame, not a war documentary.



Goblin

By your definition, then, every nation should be equal? The Bulgarians should have an equal chance to conquer Europe and challenge America?

Are we reading the same forum?


Goblin

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: AndrewC

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood
Not given greatly to debate, will post on topic this once. Historic values were evaluated and included in game. If disagree with values or feel no fun, fine. Do not use them. Set experience manually. That is purpose of option.

Bullshit. The ratings you and Gary created contain as much historical truth as fiction. I have yet to see proof that some sort of criteria was established to determine the ratings instead of arbitrarily choosing a value. I'm starting to think that you randomly hit the keyboard in a fit of anger when assigning the new values. Beside being historically inaccurate, the new ratings also made the game next to unplayable on the Romanian side. Infantry always flees at the sight of incoming tanks, they are impossible to rally once shot at, they get very few shots, etc. I'm not going to waste your precious time anymore, but just out of curiosity, can you come up with several examples of romanian troops performing this bad? If you do, please let me know: jagdpanther86@hotmail.com

Not to say SPWaW is not a great game. If major participants are your thing, this is the game to have. Otherwise, look elsewhere.

Well, Andrew...there IS another way we can "grade" the different combatants.
It's like the play-offs in a sports season..We give the first eliminated a low score, with the last eliminated a higher score..
Let's see now, as I recall, Romania changed jerseys in mid-season..Is this correct ?

[omegaall]

Well I must thank all for this enjoyable thread!!![8|]
But it is a game and only to a point can it be historical.

Also I don't believe we as a set of players were told 'YOU MUST USE' the lates mech.exe so I would assume if you dont like the latest values one would move BACK to 8.3.

I would hate to see this game try to be something it is not and was never meant to be.

[VikingNo2]

Just to ask a question, if you set the exp manually does that give every unit the value you set? Or is it a random thing where some unit are at 60 some at 55 some at 50 and so on I have never used this option

[Sturmpionier]

ORIGINAL: AndrewC

... I'm starting to think that you randomly hit the keyboard in a fit of anger when assigning the new values.

Thank God for this assertion. Now if we chart the comments throughout this thread from start to finish we can project the next accusation that will be made about Rumania. Thanks to my unique insight from the great beyond, here it is:

A monkey with a political axe to grind against former Soviet bloc nations must have been hired to code the OOB for Matrix.

Feel free to cut & paste this snippet for use in your next ranting post. However, I must ask, nay I must plead & beg, please, please, please, DO NOT STOP POSTING. This thread gets better all the time.

[VikingNo2]

Good use of the word "nay" [:D]

[Goblin]

All units use it as a base. It also sets experience, morale, AND leadership to that number.


Goblin

[Tropsbor]

Please hear me.

There is some truth in the actual ratings as far as Romania is concerned.

You have to remember that the Romanian Army was made of conscripted peasants whose training was insufficient and not adapted to modern warfare. This is essentially what Manstein wrote in Lost Victories. However, a lot of them were very brave and ressourceful.

In the battle for Odessa, the romanians suffered many casualties. Units would often lose up to 50% of their strength, but they rarely panicked or ran away. At Stalingrad, the 3rd Romanian Army lost nearly half its units in the encirclement of General Lascar's group because they resisted at all costs. On 22 November, the group transmitted its last message:
"The situation is critical. The encirclement is closing in with every hour.
Last night 2 emissaries came, proposing us to surrender, all the divisions refused.
The artillery regiments only have 40 shots for each gun.
Infantry ammo is very low.
Our troops didn't eat anything in the last 3 days.
This morning the enemy attacked heavily with tanks and Katyushas to the left of the 15th Division and the right of the 6th Division.
Tonight I planned to break the encirclement towards Chernashevskaya.
We have a large number of wounded, there is little we can do to help them.
All of our anti-tank guns have no effect against most enemy tanks.
Our infantry is crushed by the tanks.
We can only resist one more day.
Send us ammo and gas with priority."
There is one exceptional account of a romanian officer who jumped on a T-34 and disabled its machine guns with a hammer.
If anything, I would increase their morale in WAW and leave the experience as it is. But I'm not finished here.
Like I said before, the Romanian Army comprised of mostly conscripted peasants who got little training, but about 20% of it was made of professional soldiers (Vânãtori de Munte, Rosiori, etc.) who fought as well as any Waffen-SS unit. They are the ones Rundstedt and Manstein considered the best "non-German Axis" soldiers, but the fact remains that a big part of the Romanian Army lacked experience, training and good equipment.
In conclusion, I would increase the overall troop morale and leave the experience as it is, but the Mountain Hunters and Cavalry need to bumped up somehow because their +10 morale/experience bonus is not enough for them in my opinion. Not only that, but they need a lot of work in the oob department. Right now, the only cavalry unit is a cavalry squad equipped with rifle, lmg and grenade!!! There needs to be Cavalry/Mountain AT, Cavalry/Mountain mortar teams, etc. for god's sake! Of course, their rarity would have to be increased compared to the usual stuff. If this will be updated, I don't think anybody will have any reason to complain. What do you guys think?

[soldier]

- From 42 onwards, even elite Romanian infantry is still not as good as soviet conscripts so i think theres a problem there.
- With experience at 30/40, tanks will fire only twice when opening attacks. Once engaged they will only get one shot per turn and have no chance of adjusting their targetting system (so why bother with giving their tanks optical ratings, they can't use them anyway). The Infantry may get one more odd shot here and there but often don't shoot at all !
- With morale at 30, troops will abandon heavy entrenched positions to get mowed down out in the open with the slightest pressure applied, don't bother using artillery on them you won't need it (in fact don't bother buying it unless you are also a minor).
- Gun troops will also abandon their weapon when hit by some sustained rifle fire and won't rally (No problem, the gun they were manning was useless anyway [8|]).
- With this performance on the field a terrible player using majors (with the better equipment) easily beats good generals playing the minor countries. Little opportunity is available to use your skills and tactics, Result is already written in 8.4 before opening shot is fired.

Many factors contributed to the minor nations poor records in combat, most outside of WAWs tactical scope. The Stalingrad debacle (previously cited as historical evidence by some here [X(]) was not the fault of Romanian infantry man. He was targetted because of his poor position on a flank that was way overextented, by a massive force well supported by T34's and artillery. Sounds to me like German leadership is more in question here, not the bravery of poor Romanian sods in the firing line and yet they are blamed and penalized for it ? GEEZ whats going on here
I think many should actually try generated battles as Italy vs UK 43 or Romania instead of just yelling out thats history (Gunny ?) nor do i don't find it funny that minor nations have degenerated into such a farce with latest version of WAW and that so many here treat them with such contempt (actually its a rather sad comentary).

[Wild Bill]

Good contributions from all of you. I find it interesting and am learning.

[Swamprat]

I'll say one thing; it's made me download the H2H mod for 7.1 that's been mentioned so much. And it rocks!

Andrew, try H2H if you can. The set up for Romania could well be just the way you like it. Or at least more historically accurate, and certainly a lot more playable.

[Tropsbor]

- From 42 onwards, even elite Romanian infantry is still not as good as soviet conscripts so i think theres a problem there.
- With experience at 30/40, tanks will fire only twice when opening attacks. Once engaged they will only get one shot per turn and have no chance of adjusting their targetting system (so why bother with giving their tanks optical ratings, they can't use them anyway). The Infantry may get one more odd shot here and there but often don't shoot at all !
- With morale at 30, troops will abandon heavy entrenched positions to get mowed down out in the open with the slightest pressure applied, don't bother using artillery on them you won't need it (in fact don't bother buying it unless you are also a minor).
- Gun troops will also abandon their weapon when hit by some sustained rifle fire and won't rally (No problem, the gun they were manning was useless anyway ).
- With this performance on the field a terrible player using majors (with the better equipment) easily beats good generals playing the minor countries. Little opportunity is available to use your skills and tactics, Result is already written in 8.4 before opening shot is fired.

Many factors contributed to the minor nations poor records in combat, most outside of WAWs tactical scope. The Stalingrad debacle (previously cited as historical evidence by some here ) was not the fault of Romanian infantry man. He was targetted because of his poor position on a flank that was way overextented, by a massive force well supported by T34's and artillery. Sounds to me like German leadership is more in question here, not the bravery of poor Romanian sods in the firing line and yet they are blamed and penalized for it ? GEEZ whats going on here
I think many should actually try generated battles as Italy vs UK 43 or Romania instead of just yelling out thats history (Gunny ?) nor do i don't find it funny that minor nations have degenerated into such a farce with latest version of WAW and that so many here treat them with such contempt (actually its a rather sad comentary).

Hi soldier,

You make several good points.

Like I wrote in my previous post, the Romanian Army should not be seen as homogenous. You could say it had two faces: one representing the insufficiently trained conscripts (the vast majority) and the other one representing the professional soldiers who formed about 20% of the army. The soldiers depicted in 8.4 are obviously conscripts as you can tell from their morale, experience and leadership stats. In their case, I would definitely increase the morale, but leave the experience as poor as it is. But, like you, I find it very unfair that the professional side of the army is misrepresented in WAW (possibly due to game limitations). Yes, the Mountain Hunters and Cavalry troops get their +10 morale/experience bonus as any elite troop, but when you consider that the generic ratings are in the 30-40 range, the +10 bonus is really nothing. This needs urgent attention. The gap between conscripts and professionals was a lot bigger. Some conscripts could not even tell their own tanks and planes from the enemy's, and as a result, they fired on their own forces! On the other hand, the professional soldiers (mainly the mountain, cavalry, armored units) were a different lot due to their longer and higher-degree training. Check their combat records and you'll see what I mean:

Manoiliu commanded the 4th Mountain Division, which under his leadership cleared Soviet defenses at Balaclava in the Crimea, taking over ten thousand prisoners including virtually the entire Soviet 109th Rifle Division.

Hristea commanded the famed 2nd Calarasi Cavalry Regiment, which during the Battle of Stalingrad defended an eighty-kilometer stretch of front for the embattled Romanian 4th Army. Incredibly, Hristea held this sector against Soviet attacks for nearly a month before being forced to withdraw. Hristea himself suffering grievous maiming wounds while leading his troops against heavy Soviet armor, in one instance firing his pistol at a KV-1 tank.

During mopping up operations of the Eltigen beachhead in the Kuban in 1943, a force of 820 Soviet troops broke out of their encirclement in the direction of Soviet-held enclave at nearby Ganikale. Overrunning German artillery batteries on Mount Mithridates, this force quickly jeopardised the entire German ring at Eltigen. Mociulschi assembled a force from elements of the 6th Mountain Division and the 9th Rosiori (cavalry) Regiment, personally leading them in a counterattack upon the Soviets, obliterating enemy forces and saving the local sector from disaster.

Teodorini commanded the 6th Cavalry Division during mopping up operations of the Soviet Eltigen beachhead in the Kuban in 1943; his Division counted over 1,200 dead on the battlefield and captured some 1,570 prisoners along with a cache of equipment such as 38 tanks and 25 antitank guns, many of which were subsequently pressed into Romanian service.

These are only a few examples (all four from Feldgrau.com).
This said, I would increase their stats (including leadership, rally, etc.) to be on par with german troops. I wonder if Michael Wood can do this. Like I said, +10 morale/exp is not enough considering the generic stats. The bonus would need to be 3 times bigger but it can't since the limit is 10 afaik. It would involve creating two versions of the same nation, each with different generic stats. One to reflect the conscript force and the other, the professional side with its own oob set. Weird! I hope someone can come up with a better idea...

Another thing.

Like soldier wrote, the tanks need to be revised too because their stats are abyssmal. Romanian tankers were at least as good Russian tankers, yet they get their ass wooped royally in WAW.

This happened sometime during the opening of the Jassy-Kishinev Operation, when morale and experience (according to WAW stats) were at their lowest.

The 1st Tank Regiment was the spearhead of the counter-attack launched by gen. Korne's 1st Armored Division against the flank of the Soviet tank columns. At about 10 am, the regiment ran into a Soviet tank formation near the Scobalteni village and engaged it. The fighting lasted until 8 pm (10 hours) and the casualties were high: 60 Soviet tanks, 20 Romanian tanks. After several IS tanks were knocked out, the Soviets chose to disengage. It is not known how many tanks did slt. Dumitru destroy that day, but given his performance in other battles the following days, probably at least one.

This is an excerpt taken from a thread dedicated to Romanian tank aces at the Axis History forum. You will find many other examples there.

A Romanian tank ace

And two heated discussions about the effectiveness of the Romanian troops.
Effectiveness of Romanian Troops
Italians and Romanians running away
Happy reading
What do you think?

[Tropsbor]

Stupid me.

"two versions of the same nation" [:D]

A better solution: allow the +10 exp/morale bonus to go as far as 30 to better represent the elite troops of countries like Italy and Romania. Then we alter the oob to apply the +30 exp/morale bonus and voila. Though increasing leadership stats will pose a problem.

I hope I'm not talking through my hat here.

[PimpYourAFV]

I support the idea that Romania and others should be beefed a little. I read some stuff about Stalingrad like Antony Beevor's book and it sounds like the Romanians manning the flanks outside the city were ignored and not given equipment and supplies needed to set up a proper defence cause the Germans never considered the possiblity of an encirclement by the enemy. Also the Romanian sector was huge despite their small numbers and weather so cold they could hardly move or get any guns to work. Any nation would have instantly crumbled I think before the powerful Soviet attack that day. From what I see, this gave the Romanians an undeserved bad reputation over history. I spoke to a very patriotic German Fokwolf fighter vet from the eastern front and even he told me Romania was useless to Germany. Ouch.

Same for Hungary too, underequipped and too few to make much of a historical impact. That said, I still quite like the unit lists for the minors, just the stats may be unfairly weak.

All that aside, I think its great that the game includes all those minor nations for us to dip into.

Something to consider...

I'm a new player of this game and doing my first German campaign. I frequently swap units into other types of the same type like changing a German infantry to Romanian for variety. Just my nature to experiment and adventure. I started with German units but wanted to try other stuff. During the swap I think it keeps the German leader on the squad but I'm not sure. For me I don't really care so much as long as I have a good scrap with a motley bunch of clowns.