Lorenzo's rules

[asa]

Where can I find the full set of Lorenzo's rules? Also, I am looking for someone to play Russian in a 1941 campaign. Pls send PM.

[Morphy]

Since somebody mentioned it. I'd like to open a discussion concernig the Lorenzo Rules.

1. I think multiple air attacks are ok. In reality many pilots in difficult situation flew many times daily. So is it forbidden to fly more than 2 missions weekly? During the Battle of Britain fighter pilots sometimes flew as many as 5-6 times daily, the same happened with Luftwaffe in Russia. I think it's unreasonable to forbid flying often. If there are planes and pilots - why shoudn't they fly? Pay attention there is a kind of attrition factor - the more air division flies the more planes are damaged and unusable unless repaired.

2. Some people say so called micromanagement isn't ok. I disagree.

3. An isolated unit cannot attack unless toward own units. I think if an isolated unit has enough supply (by air or due to its reserves) why shouldn't they attack? In 1942 campaign Wehrmacht has crossed Don because of air supply. What limits attack ability is shortage of supply - if there is not enough fuel tanks can't drive and so on. But if supply is delivered by air - the limiting factor disappears.
Version 3.3 has a fixed bug and an isolated unit can never have SL>1 thus its mobility strongly depends on reserves and air supply.

[b5n]

I agree. In my (very limited) experience, I've not seen the game abused in a way those two rules would prevent.

Also, I'd like to contribute the rules we're using to deal with the overstacking problem in a way different and I believe
better than Lorenzo's:

Axis Panzer Korps and Soviet Tank Armies lose 2 attack plots for each stacking point in excess of 9.
Soviet Shock Armies lose 1 attack plot for each stacking point in excess of 10.
All other corps lose 1 attack plot for each stacking point in excess of 6.

(Attack plots are: 1234 6789 (even in friendly territory), static attack, bombard)

This favors the defender, allowing heavy but immobile defense of key points, similar to what stacked HQs do, but using normal corps.
All the HQ-related quirks are no longer an issue.
The attacker is also allowed a limited number of slightly overstrength but slow units.

A HQ that is neighboring one or more enemy units must move to a hex with no adjancent enemy units, if possible.

A corps may only enter an enemy-controlled mountain or enemy-controlled swamp hex as its very first plot this turn. It loses all remaining plots for the turn. During snow and blizzard, this rule does not apply to swamps, as they are frozen and are considered clear terrain.

Reworded in legalese.

A corps containing at least one 3-stacking-points division must plot "0" immediately after entering a forest hex. If that is impossible because of no plots remaining, it may not enter the hex.

Reworded in legalese.

[Morphy]

The HQ rules are ok, the movement rules are ok but the rules concerning counting stacking points are unnecessary. If your unit is overstrenghtened than you'll loose some readiness - it's already built in feature. Additionaly it makes you count how many stacking points are in specific corpses. Tiring and unnecessary.

[b5n]

Unfortunately units don't loose nearly enough readiness for overstacking. You can stuff 6 panzer divisions in your PzKorps and still have 80% readiness every turn, especially with a little special supply, for 500+ assault power. There is no way the Soviets can put enough power in a corps to stop these in 41, which was the reason people started defending with HQs.

[Morphy]

Agree.

I never thought one could pile up 6 armored divisions in one corps! Isn't it better to have 3 armored corpses instead, surround and then destroy?

[b5n]

House rules references

new house rules by kingtiger_501

The original Lorenzo set

[Morphy]

I forgot about a very important rule:

Once I discovered by accident if you save a game before execution phase and open it again later all your units gain on readiness, entrenchment, all your production increases, railoroads are repaired, you get extra tanks, planes and so on. Thus I propose a very important rule:
One must not save a game before execution phase. If you don't have any more time and you haven't finished all your moves - just leave the game and don't save it.

Any side caught on saving a game before execution phase looses.

[pyguinard]

ORIGINAL: Morphy

I forgot about a very important rule:

Once I discovered by accident if you save a game before execution phase and open it again later all your units gain on readiness, entrenchment, all your production increases, railoroads are repaired, you get extra tanks, planes and so on.

Was it when you managed to shatter my XLVIIth Pz Korps at Demyansk on that first blizzard turn? [;)]
(Just a joke)

Thus I propose a very important rule:
One must not save a game before execution phase. If you don't have any more time and you haven't finished all your moves - just leave the game and don't save it.

Any side caught on saving a game before execution phase looses.

Seriously, I thought this rule doesn't even have to be mentioned since it is so obvious! It's cheating, plain and simple! [:-]

ORIGINAL: b5n

A corps may only enter an enemy-controlled mountain or enemy-controlled swamp hex as its very first plot this turn. It loses all remaining plots for the turn. During snow and blizzard, this rule does not apply to swamps, as they are frozen and are considered clear terrain.

Reworded in legalese.

A corps containing at least one 3-stacking-points division must plot "0" immediately after entering a forest hex. If that is impossible because of no plots remaining, it may not enter the hex.

Reworded in legalese.

This rule is arguable in my opinion. I could agree that entering a swamp, a forest or a mountain is more time consuming but what about the crossing of rivers... not to mention anything about ennemy controlled cities!!
Let's not forget that each turns covers seven days, thus in a single turn, non-mechanized infantry could have been able to advance through 20Km (two hexes) of swamp, just to take an easy example. On the contrary, on clear terrain, the same unit should be capable to advance far beyond its two hexes limitation.
I see it as the game just averages the overall movement allocation through all sorts of terrain. Trying to add additional rules to it is just adding unnecessary complexity.

[Morphy]

ORIGINAL: pyguinard

ORIGINAL: Morphy
I forgot about a very important rule:

Once I discovered by accident if you save a game before execution phase and open it again later all your units gain on readiness, entrenchment, all your production increases, railoroads are repaired, you get extra tanks, planes and so on.

Was it when you managed to shatter my XLVIIth Pz Korps at Demyansk on that first blizzard turn? [;)]
(Just a joke)

Well, undestroyed, strong Soviet units are extremely dangerous in blizzard Especially if their readinness is >90 without any extra supply Why didn't you attack them before blizzard?

[JagdFlanker]

mr. K62 was nice enough to compile a full list of 'issues' worth reading.

tm.asp?m=847695

[b5n]

ORIGINAL: b5n

A corps may only enter an enemy-controlled mountain or enemy-controlled swamp hex as its very first plot this turn. It loses all remaining plots for the turn. During snow and blizzard, this rule does not apply to swamps, as they are frozen and are considered clear terrain.

Reworded in legalese.

A corps containing at least one 3-stacking-points division must plot "0" immediately after entering a forest hex. If that is impossible because of no plots remaining, it may not enter the hex.

Reworded in legalese.

This rule is arguable in my opinion. I could agree that entering a swamp, a forest or a mountain is more time consuming but what about the crossing of rivers... not to mention anything about ennemy controlled cities!!
Let's not forget that each turns covers seven days, thus in a single turn, non-mechanized infantry could have been able to advance through 20Km (two hexes) of swamp, just to take an easy example. On the contrary, on clear terrain, the same unit should be capable to advance far beyond its two hexes limitation.
I see it as the game just averages the overall movement allocation through all sorts of terrain. Trying to add additional rules to it is just adding unnecessary complexity.

[/quote]
I suppose rivers are assumed to have bridges spanning them here and there; either permanent or put in place by your engineering troops. Now attacking across a river, that is combat actually occurs, brings a penalty of 25%~75% to your assault power, meaning much bigger losses, and you very well can be stopped cold. If you are stopped, you have even less than 1 hex/turn movement speed.

Same thing with enemy occupied mountains, swamps and cities. All give a very large defensive bonus, and you often spend several turns dislodging the defenders, for just 0.2~0.3 hexes/turn average speed. BUT, once the city is clear, your tanks can roll very fast down the streets. In swamps or mountaneous terrain, there are very narrow passable strips of land, and even those are few. So there is a generic slow down when moving through swamps or mountains, and the enemy just adds further to your troubles. In contrast, cities and bridge-crossed rivers are well suited to the movement of mechanized troops.

The game tries to account for this by giving readiness penalties to units entering non-clear terrain. but, just as with overstacking, the penalty is not nearly significant to discourage players from driving their armored corps across 5 mountain hexes in a turn. Historically swamps, mountains, and to a lesser degree forests were avoided if possible. We are trying to influence the player to behave historically by reducing the number of plots across heavy terrain, a much more readily felt restriction than the small loss of readiness.