What new scenarios would you like to see?

Norm Koger's The Operational Art of War III is the next game in the award-winning Operational Art of War game series. TOAW3 is updated and enhanced version of the TOAW: Century of Warfare game series. TOAW3 is a turn based game covering operational warfare from 1850-2015. Game scale is from 2.5km to 50km and half day to full week turns. TOAW3 scenarios have been designed by over 70 designers and included over 130 scenarios. TOAW3 comes complete with a full game editor.

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golden delicious
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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: nelmsm

Not to get back on topic but I would like to see a hypothetical scenario where Germany achieves it's goal during the Battle of the Bulge and the American/British make a separate peace with Germany

... this wasn't going to happen. See Steve's post- a hypothetical scenario could be made here- but it's preposterous to have the western Allies making a seperate peace with Germany in 1945. During the battle of the Bulge, Roosevelt promised Churchill that if the Germans did succeed, the United States would raise two hundred divisions. I don't think he was kidding.
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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by macgregor »

TOAW has an excellent and flexible operational model; any campaign or conflict which was decided by operational warfare can be done very well in TOAW. Politics and terrorism, however, could be done just as well by rules you come up with yourself.

If you want, you can call me over-ambitious. But, if TOAW is to become a sort of 'simulator' of operational combat -including modern, should it not not then be able to simulate the war on terror? Any war since WW2 has been influenced greatly, if not decided by political factors. The thing that makes all this so possible is that all Matrix is being tasked with, is to provide the tools while leaving it to the scenario designers to represent the actual conflicts.
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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by nelmsm1 »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: nelmsm

Not to get back on topic but I would like to see a hypothetical scenario where Germany achieves it's goal during the Battle of the Bulge and the American/British make a separate peace with Germany

... this wasn't going to happen. See Steve's post- a hypothetical scenario could be made here- but it's preposterous to have the western Allies making a seperate peace with Germany in 1945. During the battle of the Bulge, Roosevelt promised Churchill that if the Germans did succeed, the United States would raise two hundred divisions. I don't think he was kidding.

Of course it is preposterous but it is a hypothetical. Say that the Germans reach Antwerp while forcing the surrender of 80,000 Americans and then force the surrender of the Brits. What then?
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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by geozero »

Of course it is preposterous but it is a hypothetical. Say that the Germans reach Antwerp while forcing the surrender of 80,000 Americans and then force the surrender of the Brits. What then?

The Allies would have held together. And if no progress was made it is conceiveable that an atomic bomb would have been dropped on Berlin. Really at this stage of the war, Germany could have achieved victory by better defensive strategy, and not bold attacks.
Still, it would be an interesting scenario. That's really the beauty of TOAW to be able to create imaginative scenarios.
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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: macgregor
If you want, you can call me over-ambitious. But, if TOAW is to become a sort of 'simulator' of operational combat -including modern, should it not not then be able to simulate the war on terror?

The war on terror isn't "operational combat". So no.
Any war since WW2 has been influenced greatly, if not decided by political factors.

Vietnam is one thing- the war on terror is quite another. In the war on terror, operational warfare has a very minor role, because the USA cannot be defeated in a war in which the enemy's forces could be represented by units in a TOAW scenario.
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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: nelmsm
Of course it is preposterous but it is a hypothetical.

I like hypotheticals to be rooted in reality. A better one- to achieve the same result- would be to suppose a successful July Plot dividing the Allies and, possibly, resulting in Russia at war with not just Germany but the western Allies as well.
Say that the Germans reach Antwerp while forcing the surrender of 80,000 Americans and then force the surrender of the Brits.

What do you mean "force the surrender of the Brits"?
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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: geozero

Really at this stage of the war, Germany could have achieved victory by better defensive strategy, and not bold attacks.

I don't think Germany could have achieved victory by either.

Really, given all the information available, and given that Hitler's objective was victory, not a TOAW-esque intent to hold Berlin for another three weeks, the Battle of the Bulge makes sense. It had this miniscule theoretical chance of actually giving the Germans a shot at success. Of course, Hitler overestimated his own strength and underestimated that of the Allies, this turned out to be wrong. But the decision to launch the offensive in the first place makes sense.
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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by geozero »

They had a chance of success to disrupt the western allies, but doubtful that a single battle could have made a difference or let alone win the war for the Germans. It may have bought the Germans a few more weeks, perhaps. I doubt that 80,000 allies would have surrendered, there was an overwhelming superiority against the Germans. They were finished...
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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: geozero
They had a chance of success to disrupt the western allies, but doubtful that a single battle could have made a difference or let alone win the war for the Germans. It may have bought the Germans a few more weeks, perhaps.

Yeah. It looks like we're on the same page here.

My point above is worth restating, though. From a wargamer's point of view, delaying the Allies by a few weeks makes perfect sense; the scenario ends and they don't have enough VPs for a victory. This is fine from the point of view of Allied objectives; they did want the war done with sooner rather than later. But it leaves something to be desired for the Germans. The nation facing defeat would rather throw away its remaining time for a long shot at victory. I can't imagine a way to model this in a scenario without wrecking game balance, however.
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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by Pippin »

... this wasn't going to happen. See Steve's post- a hypothetical scenario could be made here- but it's preposterous to have the western Allies making a seperate peace with Germany in 1945.

Check your historical reccords... The germans and british have met up before on (secret) deals during the time-period. Stalin knew what was going on, yet people called him paranoid.

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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by geozero »

It would be a fun scenario. Someone should make it.
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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Pippin

Check your historical reccords... The germans and british have met up before on (secret) deals during the time-period. Stalin knew what was going on, yet people called him paranoid.

There was no genuine prospect of a seperate peace. There were talks of agreements, such as the one to trade trucks for the lives of Jews, and there were phoney negotiations with the Germans intended to get information out of them. The British never had any intention of making a seperate peace with Hitler's Germany.

Stalin was paranoid. A real lunatic. Fortunately he got a grip on things better than Hitler ever did.
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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by nelmsm1 »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: nelmsm
Of course it is preposterous but it is a hypothetical.

I like hypotheticals to be rooted in reality. A better one- to achieve the same result- would be to suppose a successful July Plot dividing the Allies and, possibly, resulting in Russia at war with not just Germany but the western Allies as well.
Say that the Germans reach Antwerp while forcing the surrender of 80,000 Americans and then force the surrender of the Brits.

What do you mean "force the surrender of the Brits"?

Well I meant the 21st Army Group. Wouldn't they have been cut off in Belgium/Holland if the Germans reached Antwerp?
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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: nelmsm

Well I meant the 21st Army Group. Wouldn't they have been cut off in Belgium/Holland if the Germans reached Antwerp?

Right. But you're talking about twenty plus divisions here. They'd break out.
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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by steveh11Matrix »

Actually, it could make a fun scenario. What I meant was that I'd find a smaller one, based on the attmpts to break in/out of the pocket, to be more interesting, not that the idea as presented had no merit at all. If that is what came across, I'm sorry, it was unintentional.

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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by Drax Kramer »

I'd like to see a scenario covering fighting on Guadalcanal.


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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by Jeremy Mac Donald »

ORIGINAL: macgregor
While I'm at it, how about a comprehensive 'War on Terror' scenario starting on 9/11 that would encompass the entire middle east and southern asia that would allow several options(and consequences).(Hmmm...Indonesia?)...
While there is an excellent Persian Gulf II scenario kicking around I don't think anyone has done a War on Terror one. In fact I can't really see how such a scenario could be made using anything like TOAW. Such a scenario would be phenominally political and how do you measure victory?

Interesting concept though - and I would like it if limited moves in this direction were possible. Curt Chambers did an excellent scenario about the War in Vietnam thats truely impressive but twists TOAW out of shape significantly. It'd be nice if we could one day get updates that would make it possible to model Vietnam.
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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by redcoat »

I would like to play a hypothetical American Civil War scenario ... set in the 1930s. It would be a divisional level game.

Background:

The first civil war ended as a stalemate - after Lee's victory at Gettysburg. The USA and CSA co-exist uneasily until the 1930s when an incoming US President - called Bush incidentally - decides to resurrect the long-dead ideal of the 'Union'. His ulterior motive is to bring the oil reserves of Texas until US control.

Both the US and CSA have small standing armies - backed up by extensive militia reserves. Neither country has been to war since the first Civil War. Both sides have some armoured and air units.

The US will receive many more reinforcements in the medium to long term - because of its larger industrial base. But the CSA has higher quality units. The resolve of the CSA to win the war is much greater than that of the US.

To win the scenario the US will have to occupy most of the CSA's major urban centres. The CSA wins the scenario by holding out.



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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: redcoat

The first civil war ended as a stalemate - after Lee's victory at Gettysburg. The USA and CSA co-exist uneasily until the 1930s when an incoming US President - called Bush incidentally - decides to resurrect the long-dead ideal of the 'Union'. His ulterior motive is to bring the oil reserves of Texas until US control.

Is it really necessary to insert this smug nonsense about Bush into the scenario?

Anyway, there are already a couple of scenarios covering this concept (one set in 1940, the other in 1914);
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenar ... .php?Id=70
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenar ... php?Id=670

I haven't looked at the first one lately, but the latter's not bad. By all means design another such scenario if that's what you had in mind. But if you were just looking to play one, here they are.
Both the US and CSA have small standing armies - backed up by extensive militia reserves.

Given that these two countries clearly have some outstanding issues, in addition to an enormous frontier, surely the two would have large armies? Note that since militia forces weren't really able to stand up to regular troops in the 1860s, it's unlikely that they will be of any significance in the 1930s.
The US will receive many more reinforcements in the medium to long term - because of its larger industrial base.

I'll note here that the passage of time means that this advantage- already substantial in the 1860s- will be overwhelming by the time of this scenario. You'd have to suppose that, perhaps due to the increased militarisation of the Union, there has been much less immigration.
The resolve of the CSA to win the war is much greater than that of the US.

Yeah. The scenario lasts until the next Presidential election.
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RE: What new scenarios would you like to see?

Post by stauffenberg »

ORIGINAL: nelmsm

Of course it is preposterous but it is a hypothetical. Say that the Germans reach Antwerp while forcing the surrender of 80,000 Americans and then force the surrender of the Brits. What then?

My what-if scenario "Rundstedt's Plan Martin" examines this and other alternatives:

http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenar ... d/mcbride/


You also might want to look at an unusual book that examines this and other what-if situations:

Tsouras, Peter, ed. Battle of the Bulge: Hitler's Alternate Scenarios,
Greenhill Books, 2004

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