Protectorate Problems

[jimwinsor]

I posted a question about protectorates in a different thread which has not been answered yet...and now I have other similar questions.

Basically there are some conquered provinces in the game that I want to make into protectorates...yet I can't. The game does not let me.

The first example (which I asked about earlier) involved the Kingdom of Bavaria. As France I had conquered Bavaria, Nuremburg and (from Austria) Tyrolia. The game let me convert Bavaria (there was a "P" button I could press in the Country list) but NOT Nuremburg or Tyrolia. The don't even show up on the Country list! I'm baffled as to how I'm supposed to attach Nuremburg and Tyrolia now to my new Bavarian ally, to create the regional bonus "Kingdom of Bavaria."

The second example was Ireland. As France I noticed that the Irish provinces had little national flags over their British flags, and they were on the Country list, so I think that I'll get Britain to cede them to me (I had invaded England and they were near surrender) then I'll click "P" and protectorize them, then I'll have a couple of nice Irish protectorates!

Wrong. The "P" button did not show in the Country list, for either Ireland or N. Ireland!!! Grrrr... There were two nice NEUTRAL Irish armies that showed up in those provinces however, but I had no control of them. Strange.

So then I try to "Liberate" them with the "L" button. I figure maybe that's what I'm supposed to do; and then they'll have such a positive attitude of me as their "liberator" that they'll flock to my banner that way.

Wrong. I (L)iberate them and they hate me, big time. Negative 2000 or some such. Sigh. Ingrates!

BTW at the same time I notice all the Poland provinces had the same issue...neutral armies created upon ceding (which just sit there), but no way for France to Protectorize them. I'm stumped...how is France in this game supposed to historically create it's Polish protectorate? This was all in the 1796 scenario BTW, using the latest beta patch.

[Ralegh]

I am of the view - often stated - that a player should be able to make a protectorate or liberate any minor country they control. Eric disagrees at the moment: and to be frank, I don't really understand his reasoning. Can anyone explain when you can and when you cannot make a protectorate out of a minor you control?

[TexHorns]

I have been watching this in games I play. I have never seen the option to make a protectorate from a country I have conquered. I would like to be able to do this. As France especially you conquer so many provinces. It would be great to protectorate Batavia, Hanover, Italia, etc after conquering them. As I see it as a conquering nation I should be able to choose between full control or satellite control of the country. I like to delegate management of the country to the loyal citizens of the same country. I also like to have them produce their own units with the neat flag symbols. The only option currently is to liberate them, which when you do they usually go protectorate to someone else.

An additional issue is influence. I would like to be able to use diplomats to effect how minor countries or provinces feel about the major nation protecting them. As it is now when you put a diplomat on a protected country it only influences the major power. By allowing to influence the minor power under protectorate status you give a diplomatic option of taking away protectorate status in addition to the military option.

I know it is too late to make the soon to be released patch. But I hope it will make it to a future feature patch.

[ian77]

ORIGINAL: TexHorns



An additional issue is influence. I would like to be able to use diplomats to effect how minor countries or provinces feel about the major nation protecting them. As it is now when you put a diplomat on a protected country it only influences the major power. By allowing to influence the minor power under protectorate status you give a diplomatic option of taking away protectorate status in addition to the military option.

You can have your diplomats try to cause insurrection in another major powers protectorate, if successful, it reverts to a normal neutral minor, and units are removed from the major powers control and returned to the minor.

Ian

[Russian Guard]

Hit Control+P and scroll to the minor you have conquered; in most cases (not all) there is a "P" button to click, that turns the conquered into a Protectorate.

I have done it as Russia, with Georgia and others. But for whatever reason, after I (as Russia) conquered parts of Poland (Warsaw, etc), there isn't that option. The Poles must have offended EB [:D]

[jimwinsor]

Yeah thats true, you can Protectorate some conquered counties...but not all. It's a bit mystifying which you can and cannot, and who can do it...and only by playing and learning can you figure it out.

It is kind of important, especially for a large empire trying to manage waste; going after Protectorates rather than provinces you control by conquering is a key strategy here.

[Mr. Z]

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

I posted a question about protectorates in a different thread which has not been answered yet...and now I have other similar questions.

Basically there are some conquered provinces in the game that I want to make into protectorates...yet I can't. The game does not let me.

The first example (which I asked about earlier) involved the Kingdom of Bavaria. As France I had conquered Bavaria, Nuremburg and (from Austria) Tyrolia. The game let me convert Bavaria (there was a "P" button I could press in the Country list) but NOT Nuremburg or Tyrolia. The don't even show up on the Country list!

Only countries (also refered to as "players", though this has become a technical term so as not to confuse human players!) may become protectorates.

Let me try to lay out the logic:

As stated at the beginning of the manual, Europe is organized into nations and countries. A human player may choose to play any of the eight nations (aka "player nations".) The rest of the map is organized into countries (aka "independent countries"), which are either controlled by the AI, or by a nation.

Below this level of organization, there are many provinces on the map. They generally fall into three categories:

1) non-independent provinces. These *must* be attached to either a country or nation.

2) home provinces of countries, aka "independent provinces", or "independent countries", (sometimes called "capital provinces"). These contain the capital cities of the various countries, and a country cannot exist independently of this province. Non-independent provinces may be attached to these home, or independent, provinces, and thus become a part of a country--however, these home provinces can form a country all by themselves. (There is also the case where one independent province may be attached to another, which we'll address below.) They are therefore sometimes refered to themselves as the "independent minor", though that term just refers to *whatever* provinces happen to be controlled by that country, whether it's just the home province, or whether it includes other provinces. Often if it includes other provinces, it is refered to as a "multi-province minor" (In all cases I'm speaking of how it's refered to in the manual and here on the boards.)

3) provinces under the direct control of a nation, i.e. either a province which the nation begant the scenario with direct control over (those colored with a solid color, that is), or provinces which become conquered (either militarily or by treaty) over the course of the game (note that this does not include protectorates).

There are technically two middle terms: protectorates, and provinces under the control/occupation of a nation, but not yet annexed or made into a protectorate. Technically, only independent countries may be made into protectorates, but note that any attached provinces join the capital province in protectorate status. As for control/occupied provinces, any sort of province whatsoever may be controlled or occupied. There is an additional rule about this that I'll note below.

The rule at this point is, only independent provinces may be converted into protectorates. Non-independent provinces may never be converted into protectorates. They may also technically never become liberated, but do become liberated whenever the capital province to which they were originally attached becomes liberated--so long as the liberating player controls both provinces, that is.

The issue at this point becomes, what about the provinces that were originally attached to a home province which becomes converted to a protectorate? Shouldn't they be converted at the same time? If that isn't what's happening right now, then I'm afraid don't remember the decision that went into that, and Eric will have to fill us all in.

Control/occupation is an interesting issue related to the above, and this will bring up one of the changes introduced in the latest patches: the "floating" home province, if you will. A concise way of explaining it might be, in case the capital province of an independent multi-province minor country is under protectorate status or has been annexed by a nation, the capital will then move to some other province which belongs to the country.

[Eric: I've sent you an email with a question about a potentially confusing sentence in the new manual on this subject.]

And now, the additional rule I mentioned earlier is: if a province is occupied, it never joins any other province in becoming annexed or made into a protectorate. It is immediately separated from the country (and I believe it is also immediately annexed by the occupying nation--please correct me, Eric, if this is incorrect.)

(Eric, a question occurs to me: what happens if a province is a part of a country which becomes annexed, then later becomes occupied, but after that, the country is liberated--does anything happen to the occupied province, or is it then separated from the country?)

I'm baffled as to how I'm supposed to attach Nuremburg and Tyrolia now to my new Bavarian ally, to create the regional bonus "Kingdom of Bavaria."

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but I think you're asking: if you can't make Nuremburg into a protectorate province, then how are you supposed to get the regional bonus units for the Confederation of the Rhine? Good question, which is why I suspect something isn't working right--it should be possible, it seems to me, to attach Nuremburg to Bavaria *at the time of conversion to a protectorate*. I'd have to hear Eric's reasoning on this if he disagrees.

The second example was Ireland. As France I noticed that the Irish provinces had little national flags over their British flags, and they were on the Country list, so I think that I'll get Britain to cede them to me (I had invaded England and they were near surrender) then I'll click "P" and protectorize them, then I'll have a couple of nice Irish protectorates!

Wrong. The "P" button did not show in the Country list, for either Ireland or N. Ireland!!! Grrrr... There were two nice NEUTRAL Irish armies that showed up in those provinces however, but I had no control of them. Strange.

Sounds like "cede province" hasn't been updated to the new rule. Eric: take note. (Also note that I think in that case, France should have gotten control over the Irish armies, correct?)

So then I try to "Liberate" them with the "L" button. I figure maybe that's what I'm supposed to do; and then they'll have such a positive attitude of me as their "liberator" that they'll flock to my banner that way.

Wrong. I (L)iberate them and they hate me, big time. Negative 2000 or some such. Sigh. Ingrates!

Well, that's a separate issue. I don't know whether or not protectorate status confers an influence bonus or not--I don't recall being aware of one, but it's a good idea. Eric: take note. (And that -2000 should have been normalized anyway--maybe it would have happened on the next turn?)

[jimwinsor]

Hmmm a very talmudic area of the rules...but this all helps in clearing things up, thanks!

ORIGINAL: Mr. Z

I'm baffled as to how I'm supposed to attach Nuremburg and Tyrolia now to my new Bavarian ally, to create the regional bonus "Kingdom of Bavaria."

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but I think you're asking: if you can't make Nuremburg into a protectorate province, then how are you supposed to get the regional bonus units for the Confederation of the Rhine? Good question, which is why I suspect something isn't working right--it should be possible, it seems to me, to attach Nuremburg to Bavaria *at the time of conversion to a protectorate*. I'd have to hear Eric's reasoning on this if he disagrees.

Well yes, that is what I was asking about in general...but FWIW there is a regional "Kingdom of Bavaria" the rulebook says you can create, in addition of the COR...KOB is supposed to consist of Bavaria, Nuremburg and Tyrolia.

Now Tyrolia is an Austrian home province, which you have to annex from them. I just can't figure out how to give Tyrolia to the Bavarians. Or Nuremburg for that matter, if it happens to get taken from the Bavarians as well.

The second example was Ireland. As France I noticed that the Irish provinces had little national flags over their British flags, and they were on the Country list, so I think that I'll get Britain to cede them to me (I had invaded England and they were near surrender) then I'll click "P" and protectorize them, then I'll have a couple of nice Irish protectorates!

Wrong. The "P" button did not show in the Country list, for either Ireland or N. Ireland!!! Grrrr... There were two nice NEUTRAL Irish armies that showed up in those provinces however, but I had no control of them. Strange.

Sounds like "cede province" hasn't been updated to the new rule. Eric: take note. (Also note that I think in that case, France should have gotten control over the Irish armies, correct?)

So then I try to "Liberate" them with the "L" button. I figure maybe that's what I'm supposed to do; and then they'll have such a positive attitude of me as their "liberator" that they'll flock to my banner that way.

Wrong. I (L)iberate them and they hate me, big time. Negative 2000 or some such. Sigh. Ingrates!

Well, that's a separate issue. I don't know whether or not protectorate status confers an influence bonus or not--I don't recall being aware of one, but it's a good idea. Eric: take note. (And that -2000 should have been normalized anyway--maybe it would have happened on the next turn?)

I think I quit that game after that turn, so yes it is quite possible that "normalization" would have occured, yes.

[ian77]

What I find most frustrating is that as the protector of Poland, for instance, some of the time provinces occupied by the enemy go "double stripes" and others just go instant conquered..... however during peace settlements I cannot have these "conquered" provinces returned to Poland, they have to be ceeded to my major power, and then I still cannot give them back or free them.

Ian

[Mr. Z]

ORIGINAL: ian77

What I find most frustrating is that as the protector of Poland, for instance, some of the time provinces occupied by the enemy go "double stripes" and others just go instant conquered.....

Not only does it depend on the status of the city in that province (occupied or not), there is also a certain element of randomness as to what turn it becomes occupied.

however during peace settlements I cannot have these "conquered" provinces returned to Poland, they have to be ceeded to my major power, and then I still cannot give them back or free them.

Yes, poland is not a player nation, therefore provinces cannot be returned to it directly. As noted above, it appears that Cede Province is not operating according to the new rules for attaching protectorates to one another.

[ericbabe]

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor
Basically there are some conquered provinces in the game that I want to make into protectorates...yet I can't. The game does not let me.

The first example (which I asked about earlier) involved the Kingdom of Bavaria. As France I had conquered Bavaria, Nuremburg and (from Austria) Tyrolia. The game let me convert Bavaria (there was a "P" button I could press in the Country list) but NOT Nuremburg or Tyrolia. The don't even show up on the Country list!

When you converted Bavaria-the-country, Nuremburg province should revert to Bavarian control, yes? Nuremburg and Tyrolia are not countries, just provinces. Nuremburg is a home province of the country Bavaria; Tyrolia a home province of the nation Austria. If you own Tyrolia and have a protectorate over Bavaria/Nuremburg then you should be getting the Bavarian bonus units.

The second example was Ireland. As France I noticed that the Irish provinces had little national flags over their British flags, and they were on the Country list, so I think that I'll get Britain to cede them to me (I had invaded England and they were near surrender) then I'll click "P" and protectorize them, then I'll have a couple of nice Irish protectorates!

I'm not sure why the Ireland's couldn't be liberated. I'll take a look next game I play.

[ericbabe]

ORIGINAL: Ralegh
I am of the view - often stated - that a player should be able to make a protectorate or liberate any minor country they control. Eric disagrees at the moment: and to be frank, I don't really understand his reasoning. Can anyone explain when you can and when you cannot make a protectorate out of a minor you control?

What Ralegh means in the language of the game is not really any minor country he controls -- the game's supposed to let you make a protectorate out of any minor country -- but rather that he wants a minor country for every province in the game. Currently we have countries, like Bavaria and Norway, that control multiple provinces. Nuremburg, for example, starts every scenario as part of Bavaria and you can never create a free "Nuremburger" country because there simply isn't a country of Nuremburg in the country list.

[jimwinsor]

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor
Basically there are some conquered provinces in the game that I want to make into protectorates...yet I can't. The game does not let me.

The first example (which I asked about earlier) involved the Kingdom of Bavaria. As France I had conquered Bavaria, Nuremburg and (from Austria) Tyrolia. The game let me convert Bavaria (there was a "P" button I could press in the Country list) but NOT Nuremburg or Tyrolia. The don't even show up on the Country list!

When you converted Bavaria-the-country, Nuremburg province should revert to Bavarian control, yes?

...

Oddly no. For some reason Nuremburg stayed my conquest, when I set up Bavaria as a (P)rotectorate. This happened a patch or two ago (1.2.14?).

However, I did (L)iberate a multi-province Batavia last night (1.2.16)...and that went fine, Friesland and Batavia both went free together when I did that.

[Mr. Z]

It sounds like protectorates aren't being liberated properly.

Also, I'd still like to know what's supposed to happen if a province is a part of a country which becomes annexed/conquered, then later the province becomes occupied by an enemy player, but the country is liberated--does anything happen to the occupied province, or is it then separated from the country (and annexed/conquered by the enemy player)?

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Ralegh

I am of the view - often stated - that a player should be able to make a protectorate or liberate any minor country they control. Eric disagrees at the moment: and to be frank, I don't really understand his reasoning. Can anyone explain when you can and when you cannot make a protectorate out of a minor you control?

Ive had trouble understanding the way the system works and the reasoning behind it myself. Looking at all the puppet governments France formed during this era historically I think you should be able to form these types of things almost at will.

[Mr. Z]

Ive had trouble understanding the way the system works and the reasoning behind it myself. Looking at all the puppet governments France formed during this era historically I think you should be able to form these types of things almost at will.

As stated above, the reasoning is (or is supposed to be, anyway) that only independent minor countries can be either liberated or converted into protectorates. However, there are a limited number of independent minor countries--they are programmed into the game, and there is currently no capability to create more. Provinces may be associated with these countries (and there is always at least one province associated with a country--originally this province was fixed, but with the patch it can change over the course of the game), but new countries can't be created out of just any old province.

I suppose we might want to program in the capability of attaching *any* province to a country either liberated or converted into a protectorate (perhaps only provinces adjacent to the capital province of that country, however)--right now only protectorates (as a whole) may be attached to other protectorates during the conversion process (and never, I believe, during the liberation process, though this can occur prior to liberation.) I don't personally know how difficult this would be to program--the real problem is keeping track of all the relationships--right now, there are specific rules for keeping track of which entities all the non-independent province belong to, and changing that could cause all kinds of problems, programming-wise.

[TexHorns]

Okay I played another turn, pressed ctrl+p and it brought up same country list that is accessed through the diplomacy screen.

Their are minor countries Batavia, Hanover, Mecklenburg that were protectorates of Sweden and Russia at the time I conquered them. In the country list instead of being listed as French conquered and giving me the option of protectorating them, it says they are still the protectorates of the country I conquered them from. The only options available are DOW, Liberate or Subsidize. Why it is giving me option to DOW on a territory I have already conquered?

Now I also conquered Italia while it was a protectorate of Sweden. In the country list it says it is French conquered and gives option to Protectorate.

So the provinces/countries were acquired under the same conditions, but the country list has different information and options. Is this part of the randomness that was talked about? So when a country is conquered you may or may not be given option to protectorate it? If that is the game design, so be it. But why does the country list still say a country is "Swedish Protectorate" 3 years after France conquered it?

[Russian Guard]

I had this issue just last night - conquered Veneto and tried to turn it into a Protectorate, but didn't have the option - and it was called a Spanish Protectorate (I was playing Russia). Veneto was solid green - part of my Nation - yet still a Protectorate of Spain?

[Mr. Z]

Their are minor countries Batavia, Hanover, Mecklenburg that were protectorates of Sweden and Russia at the time I conquered them. In the country list instead of being listed as French conquered and giving me the option of protectorating them, it says they are still the protectorates of the country I conquered them from. The only options available are DOW, Liberate or Subsidize. Why it is giving me option to DOW on a territory I have already conquered?

Now I also conquered Italia while it was a protectorate of Sweden. In the country list it says it is French conquered and gives option to Protectorate.

So the provinces/countries were acquired under the same conditions, but the country list has different information and options. Is this part of the randomness that was talked about? So when a country is conquered you may or may not be given option to protectorate it? If that is the game design, so be it. But why does the country list still say a country is "Swedish Protectorate" 3 years after France conquered it?

That sounds like a bug. Are you sure they're conquered? Bavaria, Hanover, and Mecklenburg are all colored in solid blue?

[jimwinsor]

I think I may have a clue to the answer here.

When you conquer another nation's Protectorate, the Protectorate troops and containers stay loyal to that nation. This is a very good design decision; simulates Polish troops still fighting for Napoleon in 1814, and such.

So that's why I think country list still shows them as "X Protectorate"...because X still uses the troops. It's probably a game mechanics necessity.

Now here's an interesting wrinkle: Like you said you can't (P)rotectorize those countries, but you can (L)iberate them. If you do that...the troops and containers still controlled by X vanish; I think they teleport to the newly (L)iberated country to form their new independant army.

I used this ploy the other night, to make a large Batavian corps controlled by the French vanish. My Brits had conquered all Batavia, but I noticed the French still had this very large Batavian army with Batavian flagged troops in it as part of the large army advancing on me in Paris; on a whim I hit that (L)iberate button and next turn *poof* away went that Batavian army; they were now all set up in neutral Batavia.

I still lost Paris but the ensuing battle was much closer than it would have been. [8D]