Protectorate Problems

Crown of Glory: Europe in the Age of Napoleon, the player controls one of the crowned potentates of Europe in the Napoleonic Era, wielding authority over his nation's military strategy, economic development, diplomatic relations, and social organization. It is a very thorough simulation of the entire Napoleonic Era - spanning from 1799 to 1820, from the dockyards in Lisbon to the frozen wastes of Holy Mother Russia.

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Mr. Z
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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by Mr. Z »

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

I think I may have a clue to the answer here.

When you conquer another nation's Protectorate, the Protectorate troops and containers stay loyal to that nation. This is a very good design decision; simulates Polish troops still fighting for Napoleon in 1814, and such.

So that's why I think country list still shows them as "X Protectorate"...because X still uses the troops. It's probably a game mechanics necessity.
On the one hand, I like the idea that the troops might remain loyal to the old protector. On the other hand, either a) it would be better for them to come under the control of the conqueror (I honestly can't remember what the original intention for this was right now), so they should, or b) we need to make this sort of situation more clear on the country list somehow.

At any rate, it should still be possible to convert a conquered country to a protectorate, even if its troops are controlled by another player.
If you do that...the troops and containers still controlled by X vanish; I think they teleport to the newly (L)iberated country to form their new independant army.
I hope that's the case, anyway.
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jimwinsor
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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by jimwinsor »

I say option b).

Not only is getting to keep your Protectorate's troops as expatriot freedom fighters kinda cool and historical...but as my game example above shows it can lead to some intriguing strategic and political calls having to be made.

Do I (L)iberate Batavia? Pro: French army loses 50K men, I *may* be able to hold on in Paris. Con: I give up two entirely good provinces upon freeing them, that my Hanoverians spent a lot of time sieging.

Tricky decision! You know, now I'm actually warming to the idea that I could *not* make Batavia a (P)rotectorate in that situation; if I had that option this interesting decision instead would have been a boring no-brainer. If I could have made Batavia a (P)rotectorate, I could have had the best of all worlds - denied the French lots of troops, kept the Dutch in my economy...AND gained some free troops to boot.

Great for Britain the in this situation, of course, but from a overall game play aspect...boring! Having to make tough decisions, and live with the consequences, are what makes games like this fun and interesting to play.
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Russian Guard
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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by Russian Guard »


Agreed.

It'd be nice if, as a general rule, decisions made by a protectorate to stay supportive of their previous master (once conquered by a new one) was decided by the level of affinity they had for their current one (which could be affected over time by the current master both diplomatically and with financial support). That is, if Turkey for example had Saxony as a Protectorate that was subsequently conquered by Prussia, you'd suspect the Saxons would not stay loyal to the Turks under virtually any circumstance, particularly if the Prussians themselves were subsequently offering the same status (Protectorate).

Unless perhaps the Turks had been pouring tons of money into Saxony for months and months to make them a bit more amenable to Islam [:)]


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Mr. Z
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RE: Protectorate Problems

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When you conquer another nation's Protectorate, the Protectorate troops and containers stay loyal to that nation. This is a very good design decision; simulates Polish troops still fighting for Napoleon in 1814, and such.

So that's why I think country list still shows them as "X Protectorate"...because X still uses the troops. It's probably a game mechanics necessity.
On the one hand, I like the idea that the troops might remain loyal to the old protector. On the other hand, either a) it would be better for them to come under the control of the conqueror (I honestly can't remember what the original intention for this was right now), so they should, or b) we need to make this sort of situation more clear on the country list somehow.
Oh--*NOW* I think see what's going on.

jimwinsor, when you conquered Bavaria, and Nuremberg, you conquered them piecemeal--IIRC we either established this during one of the early patches, or else it was a part of the game from 1.0 onwards. What happens is, if you conquer a province, you get that province and that province only. So, if you conquer Bavaria, you just get Bavaria--you don't get any non-independent provinces that were attached to it, like Nuremberg for example.

So, what happens to Nuremberg? Unfortunately, it becomes un-attached from Bavaria. What's more, according to the new rules, if it's independent, it becomes--voila--"Bavaria"! You now have a conquered non-independent province (namely, the province Bavaria) that cannot be liberated, b/c it is no longer an independent country.

(If Nuremburg is a protectorate on the other hand, I believe it comes under the direct control of its protector, i.e. it is directly annexed--the same status as conquered. However, in that case, if you conquered it as well in a subsequent turn, it would still not be associated with Bavaria anymore--i.e. it would then be a non-independent province under your direct control.)

The funny thing is, you can now conquer Nuremberg--and, if it's a scenario in which "Bavaria" (the country, not the province) only has two provinces, then once you've conquered Nuremberg, you've also conquered "Bavaria" (the country). However, by now, "Bavaria" has only one province--namely, Nuremberg.

Here's the interesting thing, though--you can now liberate "Bavaria" or convert it to a protectorate--so should you be able to liberate Nuremberg province, or Bavaria province in this manner?

It seems as though the game is remembering that Bavaria province was the original capital province of "Bavaria"--and so, it's only letting you turn that into a protectorate, because Nuremberg province and Bavaria province no longer have anything to do with each other. We might want to look into this--I'm not sure this is the intended behavior.)

(I think part of the confusion here is that the country "Bavaria" has the same name as the province Bavaria. Unfortunately there wasn't, and isn't, much we can do about it right now. We could go back to the old way of doing things, but that didn't seem very popular.)

Now, in the other case--the units that remained under their original flag, even after you conquered the country they were from--that remains quite puzzling. I'll have to continue thinking it over.
TexHorns
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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by TexHorns »

Jim your insight may be right on. But why does it only work on some and not others? And if the issue is that units are attached to the protector, then could it not be easily done that the old protector keeps the units he has but no longer receives reinforcements for them and the new protector gets any new units built?

I like your insight but would really like Eric to weigh in on this.
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Mr. Z
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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by Mr. Z »

I had this issue just last night - conquered Veneto and tried to turn it into a Protectorate, but didn't have the option - and it was called a Spanish Protectorate (I was playing Russia). Veneto was solid green - part of my Nation - yet still a Protectorate of Spain?
Are you sure it was Veneto that was called a Spanish protectorate? It wasn't Venice? (Venice is the country: Veneto is the province.)

Alternatively, if you had just conquered it that turn, the list might not have updated until the next turn.



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jimwinsor
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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by jimwinsor »

It be interesting to check and see if the Spanish still had control of some Venetian units after you conquered it. Like I speculated above, that could be why the country list still says "Spanish Protectorate." Its to facilitate the continued existance of those "Free Venetians" still fighting under Spanish banner.
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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by jimwinsor »

OK a little update. I was playing tonight, and the AI Turks conquered a Protectorate of mine, Cyrenica. Cyrenica forces amounted to one militia, and one privateer. The Turks starved and killed the militia in the course of conquest...but the Privateer stayed Spanish.

Sure enough, the turn after conquest Cyrenica still read "Spanish Protectorate" on the Country List and I theorize that the loyal privateer was the reason why. As Spain I had only one option with Cyrenica listed: (L)iberate.

I decided to experiement a bit. First, I disbanded the privateer; I wanted to see if that action alone would somehow change Cyrenica's status. Nope. Next turn the place was still a Spanish Protectorate.

Then next turn I tried hitting that (L)iberate button. That did something; Cyrenica finally became officially listed on the List as Turkish Conquered. Hmmm.

You know, it would be interesting to know if the Turk had the option to (P)rotectorize Cyrenica after this, but as it was AI I have no way of telling unfortately. There was no Cyrenica flag (on the Turk flag) on the map.

I might try experimenting around a bit more like this, under 8 player hotseat conditions so I can see all sides...
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Russian Guard
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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by Russian Guard »


I believe I have this particular game still saved, at the point at which I conquered Veneto. I'll check tonight and, if so, I'll play a few turns from that point and see if I can determine

1) The Venetia/Veneto question raised above

2) If Spain has any Venetian troops active

If Veneto is the province, what province(s) constitute Venetia?








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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by jimwinsor »

More random fiddling this morning. I found out that armed forces of a conquered protectorate do not *always* stay fighting for the original controller. There seems to be some randomness as to whether this happens or not. When they decide *not* to fight on, the protectorate forces just fade away.

The province then becomes listed on the Country List as "X Conquered." X has all 4 diplomatic buttons, including the P and L buttons, at his disposal.

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Russian Guard
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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by Russian Guard »


Wonder if it is completely random, or tied to the level of influence the former conqueror had. If the previous conqueror had a significant positive influence with that minor, then of course it would make sense that they might feel a bit more agreeable about staying on and fighting the good fight.


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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by jimwinsor »

I think it might actually be tied somehow to the amount of resistance to conquest the protectorate (and protector?) puts up.

In my tinkering, cases where the protectorate troops stayed loyal and fought on were those in which the conqueror had to siege the capital a few turns. Cases where the protectorate troops just meekly vanished were those where all the conqueror had to to was to waltz in and capture an empty province (I was doing this intentionally, to facilitate my tinkering).
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Mr. Z
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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by Mr. Z »

Alright, there may be a bug here.

Mostly things are working as expected. The only thing that might not be is a situation like that of Cyrenaica or Mecklenburg--where the conqueror does not get posession of the country on the country list, and it must be liberated by the former protector before it changes on the list. We'll look into this bug over the weekend.

Otherwise, as I say, I think things are working fine. (There is still the question of: how can one get the regional bonus units for Germany, for example, in the case where Nuremberg becomes separated from Bavaria? We'll look into that, too, though that is not strictly speaking a bug.)

So, once again: there is a difference between provinces and countries. All countries have a capital province, but not all provinces are capital provinces--and if they aren't (and aren't part of a nation's home territory at the beginning of the game), then they must be attached to a country or a nation--they cannot exist independently, and hence cannot be liberated or made into a protectorate on their own. (Remember that many countries bear the same name as their capital provinces, which is admittedly confusing--and that under the right conditions, different provinces can become the capital of that country, which admittedly be even more confusing at times. Just remember that a country is not the same thing as a province.)
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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by gdpsnake »

Here's an interesting problem.
As France, I 'own' Lorraine at the beginning of the 1796 scenario. Since the province is a 'solid blue color,' I assumed it was part of the 'home country' or conquered at the start. Instead, Lorraine keeps producing it's own units? I would rather control it myself.
Are these some kind of bonus units? Shouldn't the country be 'crosshatched blue' if it's going to act and produce independently?

Another serious problem. I am France and Spain went to war with me. I attacked and subsequently conquered Parma in Italy. Problem is, Parma did not become a 'conquered province' but rather remained crosshatched in Spanish colors and I can't produce or do anything with it. It acts just like the "home provinces" of Spain.
It should not be a Spanish "Home country province."

Another problem. I conquered Rome and it became a Russian province? I am France and I sieged Rome which was 'controlled' by England. The province "Surrendered to France" and was then immediately converted to a Russian controlled province. Yes, there were a few Russian troops in the province and I was not at war with Russia BUT Russia was not at war with England and WAS NOT sieging Rome so why did it get Rome? I don't think my 80,000 troops would just let a few thousand Russians occupy a city I had been attacking for 6 months..........
FIX THIS INSANITY! OR at least make Russia go to war to take my city. I've seen this happen in other provinces too. HE WHO SIEGES SHOULD GET THE CITY - PERIOD!

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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by jimwinsor »

ORIGINAL: gdpsnake

Here's an interesting problem.
As France, I 'own' Lorraine at the beginning of the 1796 scenario. Since the province is a 'solid blue color,' I assumed it was part of the 'home country' or conquered at the start. Instead, Lorraine keeps producing it's own units? I would rather control it myself.
Are these some kind of bonus units? Shouldn't the country be 'crosshatched blue' if it's going to act and produce independently?

Lorraine is a "French Conquered" province, not a French home province. As such you have complete economic control over it, and can build units manually there...but they'll always have the "Lorraine" flag on them to distinguish their nationality. The same goes for the British Ireland provinces, Flanders, various Polish and Cossack provinces in the east, etc. For historical reasons, I presume, the designer felt these provinces held a kernal of nationalism sufficient to justify this status. These provinces are also distinguished by the country flag superimposed over your nation flag when you look at the province.

The units you see getting built automatically are most likely feudal levies. Set feudalism to 0 and they'll stop coming.

The practical significance of this status are subtle but many; one is that you can actually (L)iberate or make Lorraine a (P)rotectorate if you want, using the Country List. In one game as Britain I actually found it useful to enact Irish Home Rule (ie, make them a protectorate) because I was having large waste problems.

Enemy agents can also go into Lorraine to stir up Insurrection; watch out for that! [:)]

Also, as I discovered above, you'll lose your Lorrainer troops if you OR someone else manage to (L)iberate it (they leave to form the army of the new independant Lorraine), which can have all sorts of strategic implications (again, noted above).

Another serious problem. I am France and Spain went to war with me. I attacked and subsequently conquered Parma in Italy. Problem is, Parma did not become a 'conquered province' but rather remained crosshatched in Spanish colors and I can't produce or do anything with it. It acts just like the "home provinces" of Spain.
It should not be a Spanish "Home country province."

You're probably right. I would think it be better represented just like Lorraine...a conquered independant country (?)

Even if that were so, however...it would still be crosshatched (ie, "occupied") upon conquest...you'd still to have to get it through cession. The only provinces you conquer right away are (in most cases) protectorates.

Another problem. I conquered Rome and it became a Russian province? I am France and I sieged Rome which was 'controlled' by England. The province "Surrendered to France" and was then immediately converted to a Russian controlled province. Yes, there were a few Russian troops in the province and I was not at war with Russia BUT Russia was not at war with England and WAS NOT sieging Rome so why did it get Rome? I don't think my 80,000 troops would just let a few thousand Russians occupy a city I had been attacking for 6 months..........
FIX THIS INSANITY! OR at least make Russia go to war to take my city. I've seen this happen in other provinces too. HE WHO SIEGES SHOULD GET THE CITY - PERIOD!

I think I know what happened to you here...and its actually kinda amusing! [:D]

Did England have a VERY low national morale at the time? Around -750 by chance???

If so...then what happened is Rome had an Insurrection. See rule 6.11.3. In a nutshell, what happened is the city fathers of Rome travelled out the front gate to hand over to you the keys of the city...meanwhile, revolutionaries with pro-Russian sympathies had just dethrowned the city fathers, and let Russian troops in the back gate. HA! Bad timing for you!!! [:D]

I've had this happen to me a couple of time before (ie, it is RARE)...an Insurrection stealing a siege from me. They've always just gone indepedent for me...but upon close reading of 6.11.3 I see that what you described COULD HAVE gone down as well.

And you know, given the Machiavellian qualities of diplomacy of this period...what happened here sounds QUITE historically plausible! Keep it in I say.
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gdpsnake
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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by gdpsnake »

Jim,
Thanks for the reply.

"The units you see getting built automatically are most likely feudal levies. Set feudalism to 0 and they'll stop coming."

My feudalism has been at zero since the first turn and they are still being built. None of my other conquered provinces ever produce their own units. Only my protectorates do. Lorraine should not be producing their own units if it is indeed a conquered province in my opinion. That should be one of the significant differences between a conquered versus protectorate province. Conquered means complete subjugation while protectorate is a loose alliance. Conquered can only be changed through liberation while protectorate, well...anything can happen...heh heh.

"Even if that were so, however...it would still be crosshatched (ie, "occupied") upon conquest...you'd still to have to get it through cession. The only provinces you conquer right away are (in most cases) protectorates."

Not so, Every other province (protectorate or free) I've captured became conquered except in the case of provinces that are part of a multi-province minor such as Poland or Denmark. Those become crosshatched until the capitol of the multi-province is captured as well. Parma is not part of a multi-province and should not be crosshatched.

Did England have a VERY low national morale at the time? Around -750 by chance???

Actually, England was at 1000!
I don't have a problem with a Russian insurrection but I do believe that the Russians couldn't have gotten in by the back gate of a city in seige that has just surrendered. AND, if Russia wanted control, they should have had to declare war on me in order to take the city from me.
In real terms, such treachery where the citizens declared themselves Russian would not work as I would simply reseige (an instant recapitulation as they already surrendered due to starvation/assault).
As my choice was "Fire at the walls" One can only assume a breach was made and the city taken by my troops who would not then become Russian. Any citizens attempting to do so would simply be sent packing.

What I'm saying, is that an insurrection could not possibly or realistically occur at the time of a surrender as a result of a seige - they would have to make the case BEFORE a seige began. Once the seige is in place, they might try to petition the Russians for aid but the Russians would then have to issue an ultimatum to me (that I could ignore) or declare war to help. In which case, the 'new Russians' within the walls are just Russian prisoners/dead unless a relieving force arrived on the battlefield and defeated my beseiging troops.

This 'change' at surrender is just plain ridiculous in any real sense.
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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by jimwinsor »

When you say you are playing with the latest version, would that be the latest "official" version (1.1) or the latest beta (1.2.16)? 'Cause in 1.2 a lot of the stuff like you describe (ie, neutrals you control maintaining their own feudal level) are from 1.1 and have been changed in the beta. And the official 1.2 is due out very soon they now say.

I've been doing a little online research into the "Duchy of Parma and Piacenza" (yes, I know I have a lot of free time on my hands!) and I don't really think it should be Spanish controlled in 1792 or 1796. It was an independant Duchy at the start of those two scenarios, ruled by a duke who was from a *branch* of the Spanish Bourbons. IMO it should not be "Spanish Conquered" at all, and certainly not a home province. At best a Spanish protectorate, at worst a completely independant capital province (with its own flag, troops and everything).

Looking at the game files...it's not rated a capital province. It looks to Lombardy for its capital (so its part of Lombardy?!)....but starts 1792 and 1796 Spanish conquered...and 1805 as Italia conquered (with Italia being a French protectorate).
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TexHorns
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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by TexHorns »

I was wondering too what version gdp is playing because it sounds like a different game than the one I play. I have not seen many of the things he points out. But I played 1.1 for only a very short time and have been using the beta patches.

I have been playing a long game as France and have not had Lorraine produce any units apart from what I manually produce. Just seems strange that he has had so many problems. It must be 1.1.

Anybody else seen what gdp has seen?
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xletal
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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by xletal »

Really it would have of being but easy creating protectorates, I have occupied all Poland with France and at no moment, she gives option me to create the kingdom of Poland, this also happens with Bavaria and Italy. It would have to be something simple is to say I have the control the necessary provinces and create the protectorate without but complications.[>:]
gdpsnake
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RE: Protectorate Problems

Post by gdpsnake »

Tex,
I've been playing 1.2.14. I've not seen any buttons to 'choose' protectorates. The only way it happens is if they ask me to join. I had Switzerland over 1000 in my favor and 1000 more than anyone else but never saw a way to 'ask.'
as an aside......
The Spanish guerillas are getting bold, they are forming line in detailed combat and are performing sieges as they gather in ever increasing numbers.
UPDATE: The guerillas also don't go away when Spain goes to peace either.
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