Pearl Harbor Alerted

[Oldsweat]

True, an Alpha strike would have seriously dented the KB's day.

[Honda]

PH, the way it happened, was the best possible scenario for the US. Moderate casulties, mostly short term damage, recoverable ships etc...Yes, it was a military defeat, but what more can you expect if you get b!tch slapped on the first day of the war. Overalll, PH was a sound political victory. Exactly what Roosevelt needed (and Churchill above all). I know that the has been may speculation on wether PH was given a "favourable wind" from the White House, but the context screems of such a possibilty. I don't think mobilizing the US public opinion for the war would have been 20% of success it was guaranteed after PH. Americans didn't want to go to war in '41 nor would they have wanted in '42 were it not for PH. From WitP viewpoit, it would be interesting to make an ahistorical scenario without PH and US involvement. I think it was already discussed on the board some time ago, but don't remember the general conclusion.
Good night[>:]

[YankeeAirRat]

The other big thing that most people miss when talking about PH is the fact that Nagumo didn't follow through with yet another strike that day. The number of alternative fiction that has been written on that missing "Third Strike" is probably enough to rival the alternative's that have been written about Gettysburg and the missing order.
If he had ordered 3rd strike the most likely targets would of been the Submarine docks and most likely the Fleet oil reserves. Which with the oil reserves destroyed or severly damaged it would of taken about another year before the intaitive would of been gained, since the oil would of had to been pumped from the fields and ports in Texas, Oklahoma, and other places over land to San Degio and Long Beach with onloading to then to tankers and AO's to be transported to PH and other places. On top of that the 3 fleet carriers would of had to retire all the way back to San Degio or Bremerton to replenish.

[spence]

I always thought that the idea of 20 kt BBs sortieing to pursue the KB was a pretty bad idea. My little experiment was mostly to see if relying on flak and having a CAP would (according to the model) result in significantly reduced damage to the fleet/airfields or increased damage to the attacking IJN a/c.
Other than somewhat increased losses to strafing Zeros (didn't mess with initial IJN settings) the number of attacking a/c shot down remained pretty much the same as I would expect with 1st Turn Surprise/Historical 1st Turn ON.
The damage to the fleet was slightly decreased but not strikingly so. I've started 3 campaigns as Allies and either I'm really lucky/opponents unlucky or maybe there should have been a PH bombing bonus or something. I've only had 1 BB sunk in all 3 starts by the first strike and damage to the BBs seems to typically be between 80 - 30 sys for the other BBs.

The last run through (with the fleet sortieing and finding KB) was just to see what the best possible result might have been. And although the KB had two CVs which had suffered AMMO/FUEL EXPLOSIONS and therefore had to have been slowed significantly the KB escaped the surface combat. Perhaps those two CVs wouldn't have been able launch strikes the next day but there were still 160 attack planes available for the next day and I'm pretty sure it would have been a really long and BAD day for the USN.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: YankeeAirRat

The other big thing that most people miss when talking about PH is the fact that Nagumo didn't follow through with yet another strike that day. The number of alternative fiction that has been written on that missing "Third Strike" is probably enough to rival the alternative's that have been written about Gettysburg and the missing order.
If he had ordered 3rd strike the most likely targets would of been the Submarine docks and most likely the Fleet oil reserves. Which with the oil reserves destroyed or severly damaged it would of taken about another year before the intaitive would of been gained, since the oil would of had to been pumped from the fields and ports in Texas, Oklahoma, and other places over land to San Degio and Long Beach with onloading to then to tankers and AO's to be transported to PH and other places. On top of that the 3 fleet carriers would of had to retire all the way back to San Degio or Bremerton to replenish.

That was SHARPSBURG/ANTIETAM where "Special Order #191" was misplaced, not GETTYSBURG. But you are right about the "third strike". Now there's a "what if" that doesn't require any wild assumptions.
I think it was even in Nagumo's orders. And earlier discussion on this forum showed that the oil tank farms wouldn't have been the easy target many assume, but there were certainly possibilities there. I've always wanted an option to target the support ships instead of the BB's. They're no threat without DD's to escort them and Cruisers to scout. And oilers to feed the bunkers. It's an alternative I wish the game would allow me to explore.

[rhohltjr]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
One HUGE error in this speculation. There is no way in Hell the US fleet could have gotten steam up to sortie even based on the earliest "sub spot" warning. So the Fleet was still going to be in PH when the Japanese airstrike arrived. The biggest difference in the units of the Fleet would be in the state of rediness. Guns fully manned and ammunition ready, all water-tight doors closed, Damage Control manned, that sort of thing. Most of the difference would be in the Ground and Air Units. Even historically, the second wave of the Japanese attack sufferred much higher casualties than the first---and that was only with what preparation could be accomplished among the chaos of the first waves assult. Even one full hour of warning would have given the Japanese a much more formidible problem.

Mike, how long would it have taken to get the big ships steam up? Given an hour warning and 20/20 hindsight [:D] could you have cut the BBs mooring lines and let them drift while raising steam? This might have made the Vals/Kates go around several times to execute a bombing run. Could you have pulled a few destroyers around to act as a screen for the BBs? At least force the Kates to work hard to drop torps in that small stretch of harbor water? [&:]

[rtrapasso]

Mike, how long would it have taken to get the big ships steam up?

Didn't Nevada get steam up? (in record time maybe) - but she did try to make for open sea (unsuccessfully).

Probably the Arizona wouldn't have gotten hit with the AP bombs like it did (the Japanese attack plan for these pretty much depended on a stationary target.)

[Skyros]

The Neveda was in the process of switching over boilers that were used to provide power to the ship in port. So she had two already fired up which allowed her to start moving. I beleive I read somewher that it could take up to 4 or 5 hours to get up steam to move. That may be what the manual called for, but in an emergency and when a lot of spead was not needed they could do it faster. I do not think they could have sortied in an hour, just marshalling all of the ships out of pearl in an orderly fashion would have taken some time.

[rhohltjr]

What about the smaller ships? How fast could WW2 era CA & CL & DDs get steam up?

[Gem35]

Sure, the white house and the japs had a secret agreement to let the short squinty eyed men fly in and hand us our own ass. I saw it on the history Channel , that whatcha-call -it show...Unsolved history or was it Conspiracy? [8|] Buy this and the Oswald show and save $10 !!! [;)]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: rhohltjr

What about the smaller ships? How fast could WW2 era CA & CL & DDs get steam up?

Somewhat faster, i think - on the order of 2-3 hours, iirc (depending on the ship type, engineering plant, number/type of boilers, etc.)

I don't know the engineering dispositions of the ships at PH on the morning of Dec 7 - but i would think that many would have some "housekeeping" boilers lit for generating electricity, etc., They wouldn't if were overhauling/repairing all the boilers (but with a war alert on, if you were Captain, would you do this unless absolutely necessary?)

So, as noted, having some boilers lit would cut down on the "under way" time considerably.

[Dereck]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: rhohltjr

What about the smaller ships? How fast could WW2 era CA & CL & DDs get steam up?

Somewhat faster, i think - on the order of 2-3 hours, iirc (depending on the ship type, engineering plant, number/type of boilers, etc.)

I don't know the engineering dispositions of the ships at PH on the morning of Dec 7 - but i would think that many would have some "housekeeping" boilers lit for generating electricity, etc., They wouldn't if were overhauling/repairing all the boilers (but with a war alert on, if you were Captain, would you do this unless absolutely necessary?)

So, as noted, having some boilers lit would cut down on the "under way" time considerably.

Not being an engineer or boiler tech when I was in the navy I don't know the exact numbers but I do remember when the Midway was in port that we got a substantial portion of our power (electricity) from the shore. I don't know how they did it back in the 40s though so I could be just muddying the waters here.

One thought about the battleship losses the US suffered at Pearl Harbor. It could have, ironically, been the BEST thing for the US Navy in the long run. It forced the US to adopt a carrier mentality since they were the only ships capable of offensive actions left to the US Navy. By the time more battleships did get to the Pacific the carrier admirals had control and they've never given up the reins to this day. The Japanese on the other hand (and I know this is open to argument) never really let go of the battleship mentality. To the end of the war they tried to force a major surface action to use their battleships and never really succeeded to any great degree.

[cassius44]

Hi, since I was an EOOW, though admittedly nuc, I did some searching on light off times. Traditionally, the black gang would light off at least 24 hours in advance prior to underway. I believe normal warm up time is 5-6 hours for a CV-sized oil-fired boiler, perhaps only 2-3 hours for a tincan boiler. Of course, it can be done much faster, especially if you don't care what you do to the boiler (sudden hot on cold = fracture and damage).

Intersting quote from a WW2 DD history:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Base/ ... smith.html

"Something that might prove interesting to some of the Engineering rates that read this. Just prior to the air attack I was on watch in #1 fireroom. Steaming with just one boiler lit off in each fireroom, I got the message from the engineroom to light off the other boiler which was cold and hadn't been used for a period of time. Was told to ignore all procedures and to have it on the main line as soon as possible. Her operating pressure was 600 lbs, superheater temp 850 degress. Now keep in mind normally it takes at least an hour to bring the boiler up to temp and pressure and have it on line. It took me 12 minutes. Boilers weren't designed for that sort of treatment and if this were done again I'm sure it would have melted on the floor plates and into the bilges. Kidding of course. Again I ask myself "WHAT IF"."

* Note, this is already underway, so rest of the plant completely ready.*

For a more interesting case, here's the AAR from the USS Helena for Dec. 7th, 1941.
http://www.ibiblio.org/phha/HelenaAR.html

Looks like they lost all power with the first hit, then lit off a cold boiler in the same space (* again, plant hot, which made things easy *), but had to abandon as water flooded in, meanwhile using that boiler to warm up the rest of the engineering plant for light-off, which they maanged to get up to operating pressure by 0830. Glad I was NOT there!

Hope you find this of interest!
[:)]

[spence]

I served on two ship's whose histories began before Pearl Harbor (one of their sisters was there that morning in fact) and which had steam plants. Once when on "Ocean Weather Station Bravo" we were running on one boiler and one shaft when the weather picked up really suddenly. From a dead calm the wind went to a steady 50 kts in around 30 minutes and the seas went up to 10-12 ft. As OOD I called for the 2nd boiler and engine to come on line: the boiler was on 6 hr standby and the engine on 2 I think. During the next half hour or so the wind rose another 30 kts and the seas kept getting bigger and bigger. It became very difficult to keep the bow to the wind with only one shaft. I asked the snipes if maybe they could hurry the #2 engine along a bit and shortly received a call from the EO. He said "No, (%#& NO!, and explained in graphic detail using some truly amazing and sometimes hard to visualize analogies (he was a mustang LCDR with a billion years service) just how badly it would screw up the main turbines to warm them up to fast.

THEY WERE ON LINE ANSWERING AHEAD STANDARD ABOUT 15 MINS LATER.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: spence

THEY WERE ON LINE ANSWERING AHEAD STANDARD ABOUT 15 MINS LATER.

Ah, one of Scotty's ancestors I see. [;)]

[spence]

Think he'd been a MM1 on the ARK![:D]

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: waynec

i mentioned this last year and will toot my own horn again this year. i wrote an alternate history of the attack on pearl harbor for a writing class. article. i agree almost anything other than what happen would have been worse.

Turtle Dove has an interesting series out, PH still is surprised but IJN doesn't hit and run but it invades Hawaii..

The separate Carrier groups race in and of course get sunk...

"Days of Infamy"

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: waynec

i mentioned this last year and will toot my own horn again this year. i wrote an alternate history of the attack on pearl harbor for a writing class. article. i agree almost anything other than what happen would have been worse.

Good Article..

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

this is all very interesting, but now let's imagine a Nimitz class nuclear air craft carrier somehow teleports back to 1941 "Philadelphia Experiment" style and.....er.....nevermind [8|]

"December 9.... After the Nuclear bombing of Tokyo, and 4 other Citys of Japan and the sinking of their Main fleet by the USN Carrier Nimitz, Japan had no choice but to totally surrender or face nuclear Annihilition from remaining Nuclear arms unused.."

The Shortest modern war is recorded...

[:D] [8D][:D]

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Oldsweat

True, an Alpha strike would have seriously dented the KB's day.

Ahhh one Nuke on top of the KB and poof...

Then The Carrier launchs vs Tokyo and several other industrial citys and Bam bam Bam Bam and its over... Ahhh I really hated that they sent Nimitz back before they could nuke Japan on Dec 9 (tokyo time)