VADM Halsey Taken Out by the Remove Halsey Code

[Berkut]

Not so much the visual map and units, which are not great but adequate.

I am talking about some other things, when I call it "terrible". Stuff like:

1. Its a bitch to change production around. There is one screen to show you what is being produced overall, but it is just a raw list, with little summation. And you cannot go from that screen to the production facility you want. You have to close it, and then find that spot on the map. At a bare minimum, the production screen city names should be hotlinked to the city. Better would be a production interface that allowed you to change production while exmaining it in aggregate, rather then having to go to individuals cities, click ont he relveant factory, click on what it is producing, selecting a replacement, etc.

2. Why all the "codes" for crap? Why are sorties, for example, listed as something like

Sorties: 1167 (43) (something like that)

That is not intuitive at all. Why doesn't it just say

Sorties remaining: 43%

There is all kind of stuff like this. Another example:

IJN Support Squad (22) x 143

WTF? Could we be more cryptic? How hard would it be to change the label to:

IJN Support Squads: 143 of 165
IJN Support Squads: 143 active, 165 total

Or something that someone looking at it doesn't have to refer to the manual to figure out what it means?

The game is chock FULL of crap like this - needless complexity that adds nothing to the game, but makes it much harder to understand easily.

3. Why is is so ahrd to figure out the relative merits of two aircraft? If I click on the "upgrade" button, how come I then have to go out to the database screen to compare the aircraft I might want to upgrade to? And search through this terrible list that doesn't allow me to fileter on anything useful to find the aircraft I care about?

4. Don't even get me started on the "load transport" interface. Jesus H. Christ, its like they WANT me to screw that up! And then, if I do...Haha! You can't fix it! The crap interface combined with buggy code that doesn't list the load costs properly is like a minefield for the player.

5. Have you ever watned to put together a ASW TF of Japanese destroyers? Hey, look at that, there is now ay to tell when I am selecting what DD to put into the TF if it has any ASW capability at all! Swell!

6. How come when I select ships to go into a TF, I click on the ship name, but when I select LCUs to load on a ship, I select the "Load unit" tag instead? Personally, I *like* the load unit interface a lot better, since it lets me look at the units characteristics as I am selecting it, something sorely lacking the ship selection interface. But why is it different?

I could go on, but you get the point. After you paly a while you forget about all thee little quirks, and it is no big deal. But from a interface design standpoint, this game is horrendous. It is a database with a bunch of poorly written reports sitting on top of it.

[Tom Hunter]

You forgot:

Pinhead size control buttons

Information screens that obscure important information on the map. Ever tried to transfer aircraft in China? If you have not memorized the now obsolete 1940s spellings of Chinese city names you have to go in and out of the interface several times to figure out where your going. Why not have these things pop at the top of the screen so you can look at the map?

Some things about this game really are great, but plenty of things are not.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

You forgot:

Pinhead size control buttons

Information screens that obscure important information on the map. Ever tried to transfer aircraft in China? If you have not memorized the now obsolete 1940s spellings of Chinese city names you have to go in and out of the interface several times to figure out where your going. Why not have these things pop at the top of the screen so you can look at the map?

Some things about this game really are great, but plenty of things are not.

My "favorite" interface features: half the buttons do what they say when you click on them (dock ship), and the other half do the opposite of what they say (clicking on accept replacements makes the unit NOT accept replacements). They could easily make it read (for example) "Unit is now accepting replacements", etc.

[Berkut]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

You forgot:

Pinhead size control buttons

Information screens that obscure important information on the map. Ever tried to transfer aircraft in China? If you have not memorized the now obsolete 1940s spellings of Chinese city names you have to go in and out of the interface several times to figure out where your going. Why not have these things pop at the top of the screen so you can look at the map?

Some things about this game really are great, but plenty of things are not.

My "favorite" interface features: half the buttons do what they say when you click on them (dock ship), and the other half do the opposite of what they say (clicking on accept replacements makes the unit NOT accept replacements). They could easily make it read (for example) "Unit is now accepting replacements", etc.

Or better yet:

Accept Replacements: Yes/No

[Dereck]

Just out of curiosity HOW MANY people have lost VADM Halsey during the course of the game?

[dtravel]

And how many haven't given Halsey a command for fear of losing him? [:D]

[Dereck]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

And how many haven't given Halsey a command for fear of losing him? [:D]

I'm just very curious because so many people have complained about losing Halsey. I was being sarcastic when I started this thread by implying there was program code to remove Halsey from the game.

Very frustrating for a game where they tout the importance of leaders.

[dtravel]

Oh, I completely understand your frustration, Dereck. I share them. I screamed myself hoarse in the first few months after the game came out about the complete lack of even basic testing done. Then Frag was made the official point man for bug reports and I screamed myself bloody. Then I left for a year.

Bottom line, it isn't going to get fixed. Either they honestly can't figure out what the cause(s) is or the design of the program makes it impossible to fix.

So I can either work myself into a high blood-pressure induced stroke or I can make sarcastic, cutting comments. #2 is better for my health. If it helps, you are not the target of the barbs.

[Dereck]

What gets me is I've been in the IT industry for 17 years and if I was involved in putting out software with this number of bugs I'd have been shown to the door.

At Ford when we made changes to a program (even a one or two line change) we:
1. Tested the changes we made and confirmed they worked according to spec
2. Ran through the original program test plan to confirm the program STILL worked like it was supposed to and the new code didn't change something
3. Turned the program over to a higher lever integration tester who tested the program at a higher level to confirm that the program still worked as designed and didn't cause problems in other program flows it interacted with.

Can you make code "bullet proof"? YES and nobody can tell me otherwise. All it takes is dedication to do thorough testing.

Don't get me wrong, I like WITP but with all these basic bugs there's no way I can do anything but gag when people call it a "great" game. It's good but if it was "great" we wouldn't be here reading this thread because it's topic wouldn't exist.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: dereck

Just out of curiosity HOW MANY people have lost VADM Halsey during the course of the game?

I have, and two of my PBEM opponents did, as well, disgusting them enough that they flat quit, "offed" the game from their hard drives, and swore never to buy another Gary Grigsby-designed game again.

I think the loss of Chet Nimitz, which I have seen several times, may be even worse, considering what you have to replace him with.

Oh. And one last shot at those who think this game is so great. When you can be satisfied with Maj. Kyo Sakamoto as CINCPAC because he is rated 80/80, what game are you really playing?

[pompack]

The question is how does WitP stack up against the competition?

What competition?

I am glad the game exists. It would be nice if it were better (my definition of better, not yours of course), but the game is playable, fun, and can have some very tense moments (due to exciting gameplay, NOT due to bugs as some would have you believe). I am glad Grigsby and friends created the game and I hope that they create more like it.

I agree that WitP is a 90% solution. However a 100% solution would have taken years longer to develop and would probably never be released; while such a product would be extremely nice to have, it's unlikely that any group could afford the development cost considering the miniscule market.

Sorry for hijacking the thread; you may resume your discussion now[:D]

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: dereck

What gets me is I've been in the IT industry for 17 years and if I was involved in putting out software with this number of bugs I'd have been shown to the door.

I don't have that much experience, but I did spend 3-1/2 years installing, configuring and providing tech support of 911 Computer-Aided Dispatch systems at my last job. Absolutely nothing was moved into the live environment without the client testing it first in a specific testing environment and then giving the okay, no matter how minor the change or absolutely certain anyone was of them.

I literally find it impossible to believe that Matrix/2by3 didn't know of the existence of these bugs when they released the game.

[Ron Saueracker]

Point is...what's the old saying? If you are going to do a job, do it right. At least try.

[Dino]

If the game is no good, what are we all doing here? I don't suppose its all about $100. People obviously play it because they like it, even with all its flaws. It could have been better, but to make something better, it has to be good in the first place. I'm 100% with pompack on this one.

As for VADM Halsey, look at it this way: The man's had a hart attack because his bombers wouldn't fly on a critical day. Sh** happens in RL too, so just play on.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Dino

If the game is no good, what are we all doing here? I don't suppose its all about $100. People obviously play it because they like it, even with all its flaws. It could have been better, but to make something better, it has to be good in the first place. I'm 100% with pompack on this one.

As for VADM Halsey, look at it this way: The man's had a hart attack because his bombers wouldn't fly on a critical day. Sh** happens in RL too, so just play on.

Any sex is better than no sex?

No way. I don't mind losing the odd leader but ever try to even sort out which leaders were even free and unassigned? The database and interface is worse than non existant. There is no way. It's a mess and the game design is heavily reliant on the mess to work. Needs immediate and decisive action.

[Dereck]

ORIGINAL: Dino

If the game is no good, what are we all doing here? I don't suppose its all about $100. People obviously play it because they like it, even with all its flaws. It could have been better, but to make something better, it has to be good in the first place. I'm 100% with pompack on this one.

As for VADM Halsey, look at it this way: The man's had a hart attack because his bombers wouldn't fly on a critical day. Sh** happens in RL too, so just play on.

It SHOULD have been better. We're talking about BASIC bugs which would have been caught with any semblance of thorough testing before the game was released into the general population. You don't spend money for a brand new sports car and have the engine and wheels fall off while driving down the road and just say "oh well".

There's no excuse for the leader bug and other bugs in this game which, had enough thorough testing been done, should have been caught and rectified during the initial programming. I'm not trying to impune the skill of anybody working on WITP but it's obvious that the number of programmers they had/have working on this game wasn't enough for a project this big. You not only need programmers you also need enough that they can perform testing of other programmer's programs and also have dedicated testers (since testing is a skill in itself).

[moses]

Original Dereck

It SHOULD have been better. We're talking about BASIC bugs which would have been caught with any semblance of thorough testing before the game was released into the general population. You don't spend money for a brand new sports car and have the engine and wheels fall off while driving down the road and just say "oh well".

Bla Bla bla......the developers are utter boobs who could have been out-programed by any first year computer science major. Sure there was not even a SEMBLANCE of testing.

But I have news for you. The wheels havn't fallen of this sportscar. Hundreds/thousands are driving it every day despite any flaws that exist. This really has to rank as the best software purchase I have every made and I'm sure many agree.

I'm sure someday some team of programers will produce a Pacific War game that puts this to shame. Hell, if all you need is a first year programer and a semblance of testing how hard can it be.

Until then I'll play WITP and then their civil war game and then the new war in Russia.

Thats right I"M GOING TO REWARD THEM them for producing games with their pathetic 7th grade programming skills.

[Dereck]

ORIGINAL: moses

Original Dereck

It SHOULD have been better. We're talking about BASIC bugs which would have been caught with any semblance of thorough testing before the game was released into the general population. You don't spend money for a brand new sports car and have the engine and wheels fall off while driving down the road and just say "oh well".

Bla Bla bla......the developers are utter boobs who could have been out-programed by any first year computer science major. Sure there was not even a SEMBLANCE of testing.

But I have news for you. The wheels havn't fallen of this sportscar. Hundreds/thousands are driving it every day despite any flaws that exist. This really has to rank as the best software purchase I have every made and I'm sure many agree.

I'm sure someday some team of programers will produce a Pacific War game that puts this to shame. Hell, if all you need is a first year programer and a semblance of testing how hard can it be.

Until then I'll play WITP and then their civil war game and then the new war in Russia.

Thats right I"M GOING TO REWARD THEM them for producing games with their pathetic 7th grade programming skills.

Moses I've told you before I'm not going to get into this with you.

You can hide your head in the sand and not see that there HASN'T been enough program/system testing done which would have caught these bugs before the game was released. That's your option.

But please don't go try to flame me by misrepresenting what I say. I never called the developers what you did in the first line of the copied message. In fact I said nothing of the sort. I specifically stated I wasn't trying to impune the skill of anybody working on this game (which in your posts you, on the other hand, seem to do quite regularly). I merely stated that for a project of this size it seems obvious they simply did not have enough programmers working on it. You can have the best programmers in the world working on a project but if the project is still too huge for the number you have working they won't be able to do their best - and not for lack of their skill or knowledge.

I also never said "all you need is a first year programmer ...". Once again, don't put words in my mouth that I never have said or implied.

All I've ever stated - and something I WILL stand behind -- and which seems to be agreed with by most of the people posting here and on some other related threads -- is that not enough testing was ever done to catch simple programming bugs which should have been caught well before now.

[Dino]

Dereck, theoreticaly you are right on most of the accounts, but its all really a mater of proportion.

a. Sports car doesn't cost a $100.

b. If the wheels fall off while driving, there is no restart.

Concept of this game is answer to my prayers, and although realisation SHOULD have been better, I'm sure there will be other games that will follow this concept and have a better realisation (by this team or some other).

[Dereck]

ORIGINAL: Dino

Dereck, theoreticaly you are right on most of the accounts, but its all really a mater of proportion.

a. Sports car doesn't cost a $100.

b. If the wheels fall off while driving, there is no restart.

Concept of this game is answer to my prayers, and although realisation SHOULD have been better, I'm sure there will be other games that will follow this concept and have a better realisation (by this team or some other).

The fact of the matter is when you buy something (regardless of price) you expect to have a reasonable expectation that the BASICS of what you buy will work. This isn't always the case with this game - an array filling up causing a pilot replacement problem; a leader problem which consistantly removes and/or replaces officers at will; a "new" leader bug which causes the NAMES to disappear so you have a leader selection screen with half the leaders unable to be even selected? These are simple programming bugs which shouldn't have ever reached this stage if enough testing had been done.