Congratulations to Bruce Sutter

[KG Erwin]

Has it really been 18 years since he threw his last pitch? Even in his last year with the Braves, I thought this guy still had the "stuff".

In a 12-year career, he had 300 saves, a lifetime ERA of 2.83, 861 Ks and only 309 BBs.

Salute to the first exclusively relief-pitcher to make it to the Hall of Fame.

[akcranker]

Right on.. good to hear he made it.

[redeck]

hats off to Sutter, one of my childhood heros

[RandyChase]

But if Sutter made it, why didn't the Goose?

[Johnny Slick]

The Goose, hell. Where are Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker?

[redeck]

Tramm, Sweet Lou, Jack morris, and Jim Rice too

[Edward]

I can't speak for Sutter cause I never saw him play. But I did see a good part of the careers of Jack Morris, Trammell & Whitaker. Never once did I think in those 3 players I was watching a HOF player.

I loved them all but they are just very solid major league ballplayers who went out & did their job.
There is nothing wrong with that either.
I could be wrong but I'm sure both are in a Det. Tigers HOF & that is enough glorification for them.

A HOF to me is a player that is dominating ahead of the regular run of the mill all stars
such as lou & alan.

I'm not so sure about Jack Morris anymore cause he got a lot of votes this year
but I'm 100% positive Lou & Tram will never make it.

Jim Rice on the other hand dominated the game for years & will be voted in by the veterans committee.

[KG Erwin]

To expand this discussion, Mark McGwire will be eligible for the HOF voting next year. Will he make it on the first ballot?

As for "Goose" Gossage, he's raising a stink about not getting in this year. Bitching about it certainly doesn't improve his chances. [:-]

[Edward]

No way Big Mac gets in on first ballot. He sealed his first ballot fate when he said 'i will not talk about the past' He will get votes. I already have a bet on how many votes he gets - I say under 100 & me thinks he gets in 2009.

I don't believe in the idea of the 'first ballot hof' anyhow.
Once you get in there - there are no distinctions.
That being said Sutter should of went in with Steve Carlton in 1994.

I would normally agree that being bitter & angry about getting denied wouldn't help
(see tony oliva) but in goose's case he has a true grip & he needs to have his case examined - the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

[Rob322]

ORIGINAL: Edward

I can't speak for Sutter cause I never saw him play. But I did see a good part of the careers of Jack Morris, Trammell & Whitaker. Never once did I think in those 3 players I was watching a HOF player.

I loved them all but they are just very solid major league ballplayers who went out & did their job.
There is nothing wrong with that either.
I could be wrong but I'm sure both are in a Det. Tigers HOF & that is enough glorification for them.

A HOF to me is a player that is dominating ahead of the regular run of the mill all stars
such as lou & alan.

I'm not so sure about Jack Morris anymore cause he got a lot of votes this year
but I'm 100% positive Lou & Tram will never make it.

Jim Rice on the other hand dominated the game for years & will be voted in by the veterans committee.

Yeah but Jim Rice wasn't even close to 500 HR's, although he had 2458 hits. He also had poor post season numbers. His last 6 seasons were good but not great, never reaching 30 HR's and only twice exceeding 150 games. Jim Rice had some fantastic seasons but not as many as one would like to truly be HOF.

And, he wasn't all that savvy at media relations. Since they're the ones who vote people in that wasn't too smart in retrospect. Borderline guys need all the help they can get.

Now if you want an argument where's Bert Blyleven? [:D]

[Steely Glint]

Sutter deserves to be in the HOF. He was amazing.

Whitey Herzog introduced Sutter once to to a reporter this way: "I'd like you to meet my bullpen." He wasn't kidding.

[Steely Glint]

ORIGINAL: RandyChase
But if Sutter made it, why didn't the Goose?

Because Sutter was a much better and more dominant pitcher.

[Edward]

Gossage posted nine seasons with an adjusted-ERA+ better than 150; Sutter had just three.
Sutter - only eight seasons in which his ERA was better than the league average. Gossage posted 15. & Sutter never faced a DH

Taking nothing away from Sutter. He is a legit HOF player. Albeit, a specialized one.

Rob, as far Rice - I agree 100% which is why he will have to wait until the players vote him in. & I agree that he is a second teir HOF player but he was scary with that bat.

Bert is another outsider looking in cause he played in the same era as some of the most dominant pitchers ever. Once the dust settles he will also deservingly get in.

but having injustices in HOF is part of it's allure & charm. If everything was corrected there would be nothing to debate.

[redeck]

to rebut on Tigers outside looking in, I agree that Whitaker was a very good everyday player, probably not a Hofr.

Trammell however was one of the top 3 shortstops of his time, Id say Ripken and Ozzie Smith being the other 2, and Tram hit a ton more than Ozzie, who is already in.

as for Morris, He has a high life time ERA, and only 254 lifetime wins (only, like alot of guys have 250+ lifetime wins heh) but what about 175 career complete games, 2478 career strikeouts, he was mister big game pitcher winning world series games for 3 different series winning teams. he was also not very well liked by the media, but for my money this guy should be in, ps bert blyleven as well.

my feeling on the HOF is this, its to remember the greats of the game. if you go down the roster of players in the HOF, every player mentioned in this post has better numbers than SOMEONE in the HOF. so shouldnt they all be remembered? I think so. are they runing out of wall space to hang these placs? maybe they should start voting some guys OUT of the hall? lol I say we honor and remember all the greats not just the ones the media liked. what do you all think?

[Edward]

on Trammell vs. Oz
different stratophere in terms of fielding. even fielding stats bear out what people were seeing. Oz was the best to play the position. In my book, Trammell only had 3 HOF seasons. & his career dies after age 32.

Morris has lifetime 3.90 era - which would be the highest era in the hall. & that stat to me speaks to what he was - A Scoreboard Pitcher - A guy who did what he had to do to win in any given start. I remember so many of his starts were his team scores 5 he gives up 4. His team scored 3 he gave up 2.
didn't have the HOF stuff.

the name of the place is the Hall of FAME. Not the Hall of Stats. Kirby Puckett is a perfect example of the stats not telling the whole story on a player.

it comes down to a case by case basis. dealing with media is a part of the baseball package. but the media aspect only comes into play when you don't have the stats.
Eddie Murray didn't talk to the media for 19 years.

In anwser to your question. I don't believe every player needs to be immortalized.
People argue for Donnie Baseball all day long but anyone who watched him play knows that Donnie doesn't need anyone to justify his game. He lives in the hearts of his fans.
That is where the likes of Morris, Tramell & the other 99% of the players should live.

this website should be of interest to some
click here the case for Bert

[redeck]

I dont feel we need to imortilize every player in the hall, however i do feel that the best players of each generation should be inducted. Was trammell one of the best players of his generation, to me yes.
was Morris, yes he was. my memory may be wrong, im sure someone will correct me, but did anyone win more games than jack morris in the 80s? the era is really the only knock. He kept his team in almost every game he pitched. its not the hall of stats you are correct, that is why Morris should be in, there just werent that many better ace pitchers in the 80s than jack morris. I might take this guy or that guy in their prime to pitch one game for me, but in the 80s to pitch a season, anchor a staff for a generation, im taken morris.
i love the blyleven page you linked, hed be on my ballot also. which brings up anouther point, if the hall of fame is for players who are in the fans hearts, why dont the fans have some vote?

ive enjoyed the chat edward, respect your views and broadend my perspective on the subjects as well

[Edward]

Yes. Morris did, in fact, win the most games in the decade of the 80's
and he is the only player not in the HOF with that distinction & we are taking into account every decade since 1900.
Maddux a sure fire future HOF led the decade in the 90's.

I'm just going on what I saw. Here is my own criteria. Let's say the HOF didn't exist.
Would Jack Morris be the type of player who would inspire you to invent such a place?

[redeck]

after over 100 years of baseball and no HOF, would morris inspire me to build one. No. niether would ryne sandburg, or bruce sutter, or kirby puckett, or Mazzeroski, or Jesse Haines or dozens of others already in.

heres some criteria, would you like to see morris pitch in a corn field in iowa with other guys who've made a mark in this game? me, id like to see jack in one of those games.

[redeck]

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/submit/White_Paul8.stm

heres a page similar to the one about blyleven argueing for trammell, very interesting comparisons.

[Edward]

ORIGINAL: redeck

would you like to see morris pitch in a corn field in iowa

Even better - I saw him pitch in yankee stadium. Morris was the missing link for the Yankees of the 80's.

2008 & 2010 are the next years with no '1st Ballot' guys.
Dawson, Rice, Goose & Byleven all get in by then

Right now, I'm in a league trying to guide Don Mattingly to the Hall Of Fame
after 7 seasons, I must say I'm suprised at how close to his career numbers he is performing to.