advanced squad leader

[SurrenderMonkey]

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

ORIGINAL: Sarge

This was all in fun, but obviously your starting get a little out of control.

Not really.

It is becoming abundantly clear your whole motive is to start a flame war.

You're wrong again.

You might want to google for the meaning of Godwin's law, or for an example.... there are chances that you might get my joke eventually.

ROFL! [:D] I Googled Godwin's Law ... [8D]

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

How is this pressure "realistic"? The typical wargame has the player taking on the duties of multiple people. For a "real-time environment" to be truly realistic, it must allow for pauses so that the player can ingest the information that all the multiple different people he is representing would be acting upon.

Well there are continous play games that would allow both, real-time combat and pausing the game, with COTA being the most shiny example atm, and maybe with CloseCombat being an early pioneer.
A pause function might be a helpful aid to support the player on his course, but it's not neccessarily a tool to enhance realism, imho. Commanders in the field did not have "endless" amounts of time to make decisions. Coy commanders or platoon leaders often had seconds only, to adapt to enemy moves and tactics, and that's where I consider "real-time" games to be realistic when recreating such battle situations.

I don't follow the argument that turn-based or pausable solutions have to be there because the player represents XY amounts of positions/officers/ppl.

A game like Cota allows to take the commander seat on several levels (Div., Bn, Coy), and its AI can take over "multiple different people's" positions, with the player commanding (one or) several Batallion(s), for example, and with the AI taking over the subordinates' positions. The player can control each and every Coy though, if he wishes, so he can detach (and disable the AI for) any unit at any given time. All this is done (played) in real-time, and it's not neccessary to pause the game (although it's possible).

I'd consider this approach to be one of the most realistic ones, atm.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Well I am mostly out of home this week, but, I can see Sarge is doing a fine job kicking around Goodguy's peculiar viewpoint for my own needs

[ravinhood]

Lol are you guys still going on with this? This thread has proven one thing to me though, how out of proportion to the actual origional debate things become as the chain continues. I saw it on a Bob Barker show once where he lined up 10 people and told one person a short story and told them to tell it to the next person to them and them the next and on and on to the 10th person. When it got to the 10th person and he asked the person to tell it to the audience it was so funny how "out of proportion" it had become by the time it got to him. lol
 
This was orgionally about which game CC, CM or SPWAW comes closest to being like ASL, nothing to do really with rts vs turn based blah blah. Bringing the circle back around SPWAW still comes closest of the 3 to being MOST like ASL...not CC. And yes some people are just on the verge of Luddism Othello.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
This was orgionally about which game CC, CM or SPWAW comes closest to being like ASL, nothing to do really with rts vs turn based blah blah. Bringing the circle back around SPWAW still comes closest of the 3 to being MOST like ASL...not CC. And yes some people are just on the verge of Luddism Othello.

The supreme irony here is that this thread wasn't at all originally about what you just said. The original posting was:

like a lot of people i would like to know if matrix games ever plan to acquire the rights of advanced squad leader from avalon hill and make a fidel computer adaptation? if not why and if yes when

And beyond the simple answer that someone else has already acquired said license (Namely Paradox from Atari (Which is, in essence, the new Hasbro Interactive) the answer to the original question is a most highly probable "absolutely not". It would be a fool's errand especially given the Paradox release. So many others have started down this path before (both Indies and Professionals) and none have ended up with anything close (Or anything finished in the case of Indies). Why? Because ASL is simply TOO COMPLEX. And no, not too complex to play. Just too complex for a full exact computer conversion. Surely WITP is nearly as complicated and/or complex. Maybe even more so. But it was designed with the computer in mind. The problem with ASL is you can't make concessions. You can't leave out and alter things or otherwise enhance them. You do that and you don't have ASL. And then why bother with a conversion at all?

@ Mr. Fisla would be the question: What are you hoping to accomplish with your work? Why not just make your own game based on ASL loosely or even heavily?

I think why so many set out to recreate existing games comes down to motivation. Its easier to be motivated to work on it as you know (or see it in your mind as) something you know both you and others will love upon completion. Its not all that different from why the big guys grind out the same stuff over and over as well. Yet this is exactly what robs us all of fresh new designs and ideas. Innovation is suppose to come from the little guys. Yet all the little guys in wargaming seem to start out by being stuck on impossible tasks of remaking monster games. Really, I wonder, if one actually succeeded at the task... And the game was finished and a huge hit... Wouldn't that not attract the attention of Paradox, Atari, Hasbro, and or others with an actual financial interest and investment in said property? I'd imagine them to have far more money to pay lawyers and regardless of whatever mitigation tactics were employed by said little developer.. I can't imagine anything then happening other than the ultimate irony being the game, now finally complete, cannot see the light of day anyway due to legal issues.

For those that don't know me (I've been biting my neuromancing toungue for awhile now), I should add that I state the above from personal experience as I have been down this same path in the past (To make Computer ASL). I even, mostly by persistance, got to talk to Hasbro/Atari about it and approx half a dozen other titles/series (Up Front, Fleet Series, etc.). Ultimately though even the "legal" approach was/is a waste of time IMO. Which is why I switched to making my own designs.

Of course I, as much as anyone, would like to see a true exact computer conversion of ASL. But it just isn't going to ever happen. Each time someone starts down the path anew (Paradox included) it just seems like the worlds worst tease. And I stand by my opinion that it would be a mistake for Matrix to become the latest to tread down this path. But I will most happily allow them to prove me wrong if they so wish...

[ravinhood]

My idea of an ASL game for computer would be much like ASL started out. As merely "Squad Leader". Build the first game from that with the ability for users to incorporate additional rules and mods/maps/scenarios etc. instead of just having one designer/developer do it. It doesn't have to be the Full Blown Version of ASL....gawd that would take a lifetime. Just a mere "Squad Leader" starter kit and I'd be happy until Cross of Iron etc. etc. were produced. The main thing I want from an ASL or SL computer game is an exact copy of the board maps and the unit counters not some 3D isometric bs or rts etc. etc. I want my Les the Sarge counter FLAT and on a HEXgrid map on a computer and of course Fog of War can be better programmed on the computer than the boardgame. I want it to have random map generations like you can do with SL and with a computer even random placement, and build points for quick battles. I don't see that as being impossible I see some want the cart before the horse in that it should be ASL or nothing. If you're starving will you turn your head at a crumb of "cake"?

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

I concur with Ravinhoods post above.

Give me Squad Leader scenario 1 The Guards Counter Attack. I've already played the SPWaW version, so a computer CAN play Squad Leader.

But, I don't reeeeeeeeeally need the entire ASL Rule Book 2 manual in a computer program on day one. I am not even sure I want that at all actually. I might like nothing more than the base game Squad Leader.

[Peter Fisla]

ORIGINAL: Veldor

@ Mr. Fisla would be the question: What are you hoping to accomplish with your work? Why not just make your own game based on ASL loosely or even heavily?

Hi Veldor,

Please see my previous posts in this thread for more detailed information. Just to summarize:

1) I want to be able to enjoy the game without constantly checking the rulebook. And no I don't have access to face to face play due to work etc.

2) What do you mean make my own game based on ASL? Isn't that copying ? Why reinvent the wheel ? Designing my own game rules and balancing them will take years and I'm not a game designer, I'm a software engineer.

3) XASL will allow me to play ASL without the constant checking of the rules though I still need to know ASL and how things work. However I don't have to memorize how to do Prep Fire Procedure from a CX Squad attacking enemy possessing FT in say building hex. XASL will allow people that don't have access to FTF play to have some solitaire fun on their own and play against AI. XASL will make it easier to learn ASL for new people coming into the hobby. It will also hopefully help HASL designers to play test their campaigns/scenarios faster at least the basic stuff.

4) Yes Paradox got the license in 2004 to work on Squad Leader...but I seriously doubt you will see the boardgame version of SL or ASL on your PC from them. What I believe we will see is something similar to Jagged Alliance 2/Fallout Tactics - turn based squad combat using 2D/3D isometric view.

5) XASL is = ASL Starter Kit rules and graphics. I'm using the actual counter graphics as well as the maps..I have currently all ASLSK maps implemented down to the same buildings. My engine can combine multiple ASLSK boards together (max 12 maps for now). To make sure I implement the ASLSK rules properly, XASL is being currently tested by experienced ASL players. The current state of the project is I have SMC/MMC/HS rules in for German/Russian/American/British nationalities including machine guns, Flame throwers and demo charges. I'm currently working on ordnance and mortars...

The only way you will most probably ever see a computer conversion of ASL that looks and plays the same way as the boardgame is from people like me or others like the group of great guys that did VASL. Let's face it no game development company today will make a computer wargame complexity of ASL using 70's style maps and counters graphics, never mind the licensing fees.

Peter

PS: Here is a screenshot of the second ASLSK scenario called - War of the Rats, Eastern Front Stalingrad

[Peter Fisla]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

I concur with Ravinhoods post above.

Give me Squad Leader scenario 1 The Guards Counter Attack. I've already played the SPWaW version, so a computer CAN play Squad Leader.

But, I don't reeeeeeeeeally need the entire ASL Rule Book 2 manual in a computer program on day one. I am not even sure I want that at all actually. I might like nothing more than the base game Squad Leader.

You can kind of already do that with XASL. Except: No Snipers since they are not modeled in Starter Kit Rules - I plan to add them later though. No weather rules, no bypass movement. All other rules should be in, though I don't have ASL Map 1 yet in XASL since I haven't added ASL Map 1 buildings yet into my map editor. War of the Rats is a similar scenario that plays on ASLSK map.

[ravinhood]

Lock n Loads computer game will be out eventually and it looks to me like the closest thing to a "Squad Leader" game I've seen. Though Mark clearly states it's not "Squad Leader". I'm getting it anyways. Hopefully it's very moddable and I can recreate the "Squad Leader" scenarios and maps into it. Schwerpunkt games probably still come the closest to the nostalgia boardgames of old. I enjoy playing his games. I don't know why programmers don't want to make some of the older style of wargamming games on a computer....we (the baby boomers) spent a lot of money on those boardgames and from what I've read boardgaming is still alive and well and that's probably because there's not enough computer programmers bringing the boardgames they love to the computer. Too much eyecandy and not enough wargame. I don't understand why anyone wants to see animated sprites go bang bang at each other, I'd rather be rolling the dice again myself.....slide them 6's baby. lol

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla
4) Yes Paradox got the license in 2004 to work on Squad Leader...but I seriously doubt you will see the boardgame version of SL or ASL on your PC from them. What I believe we will see is something similar to Jagged Alliance 2/Fallout Tactics - turn based squad combat using 2D/3D isometric view.

I cannot really claim to know anything more on this subject than anyone else, and certainly my information is now VERY dated (And my memory a bit fuzzy), but as of one conversation I had directly with Paradox awhile ago, they assured me that they are in fact wargamers at heart and very much intended to stay faithful to both licenses they had acquired (Diplomacy & Squad Leader). Well I'm certainly paraphrasing that but that was the overall sense I got from what was told to me. Since their Diplomacy title was spot on faithful, Ive never seen any reason to doubt that the SL one would be any different especially given the comment made to me. I believe most of this fear comes from what Microprose did with the SL license way back when.

However, that said, Diplomacy turned out to be a complete disaster. Really even by their own admission. So even were the above true at that point it time, it may well no longer be. I'm not even sure they still have anyone actively working on it. Certainly there has been no new news on it in almost 1.5 yrs. But they well know the mistake Microprose made. And they know what SL/ASL fans want. I wish someone in the press would "press" them on that issue and make them answer at least what kind of game they currently plan to make and if they are still working on it.

2) What do you mean make my own game based on ASL? Isn't that copying ? Why reinvent the wheel ? Designing my own game rules and balancing them will take years and I'm not a game designer, I'm a software engineer.

Copying ASL? Well no more than Combat Leader was a copy of it, or Close Combat, Combat Mission etc. I suppose every game to use a hexagon is copying a previous work to. LOL I don't think most people would really see it that way even if it were very similar. How about Critical Hit and all that jazz? Basically an ASL copy. You also don't have to be a game designer. You could work with someone else (ahem. myself for instance) LOL but unfortuneately no one with skills ever wants to network in this business. We are all overtalented and I suppose personal egos and agendas get in the way (I'm not a psychologist so I don't really know what the real issue is). Just that there aren't enough little guys making "fresh" new wargame titles much less "innovative" ones.

Also what exactly qualifies someone as a "Game Designer"? If you go to school for this you learn very little that is helpful in designing wargames. Beyond basic game design knowledge that can be picked up with any good book, the rest of what you need to know you'd know better as an avid wargame player than as the guy who just Designed Doom 6.

3) XASL will allow me to play ASL without the constant checking of the rules though I still need to know ASL and how things work. However I don't have to memorize how to do Prep Fire Procedure from a CX Squad attacking enemy possessing FT in say building hex. XASL will allow people that don't have access to FTF play to have some solitaire fun on their own and play against AI. XASL will make it easier to learn ASL for new people coming into the hobby. It will also hopefully help HASL designers to play test their campaigns/scenarios faster at least the basic stuff.

5) XASL is = ASL Starter Kit rules and graphics. I'm using the actual counter graphics as well as the maps..I have currently all ASLSK maps implemented down to the same buildings. My engine can combine multiple ASLSK boards together (max 12 maps for now). To make sure I implement the ASLSK rules properly, XASL is being currently tested by experienced ASL players. The current state of the project is I have SMC/MMC/HS rules in for German/Russian/American/British nationalities including machine guns, Flame throwers and demo charges. I'm currently working on ordnance and mortars...

That all sounds great. I hope you realize I wasn't trying to sound negative. I'm partially just way too chicken sheet to ever do something like that myself. Mostly because a Lawyer advised me what I could attempt to do to others if I'd gone forward and acquired rights. It's probably the only real thing I hate about living in the US. I just can't get away with what foreigners can. I suppose Canada is far enough away that most anyone might not find it worth the hassle. I live in Chicago so I'd get sued right away even if it were only a "scare tactics" style lawsuit that didn't have much actual legal basis (which can be debated till the end of the earth).

To that end I'd HOPE you've at least run your project by MMP. I know they never objected to any of mine but they also have zero power of course over electronic rights but its at least a start. Then I'd actually go so far as to inform Paradox directly as well. Anyway, from past experience, you'll get one extreme or the other as a response.

Maybe I'm just way too paranoid.

The only way you will most probably ever see a computer conversion of ASL that looks and plays the same way as the boardgame is from people like me or others like the group of great guys that did VASL. Let's face it no game development company today will make a computer wargame complexity of ASL using 70's style maps and counters graphics, never mind the licensing fees.

Oh Im quite positive the paradox version of Squad Leader will in fact have 3D graphics and not in anyway "visually look" like its 70's source material. But I believe the gameplay itself will still be true to form as was with Diplomacy.

I have been wrong before though.... [:D]

PS: Here is a screenshot of the second ASLSK scenario called - War of the Rats, Eastern Front Stalingrad

Looks great. Honestly. If your ever willing to take the plunge into full developer mode and work with some others look me up. That is, I suppose, as long as you don't think I'm a total jacka$$ or something. [:D]

[ravinhood]

**as long as you don't think I'm a total jacka$$ or something. [:D] **
 
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[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

**as long as you don't think I'm a total jacka$$ or something. [:D] **

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I'd been hoping for a response from Mr. Fisla to my posting but added that phrase cuz I didn't really expect to get one. Thus far I've been right LOL.

@ Mr. Fisla again though. You said "I don't have access to face to face play due to work etc." but yet you have enough time to program an ASL game from scratch? Am I the only one that sees the irony in that? Busted [:-]

[TOCarroll]

Wow, we got a real hornet's nest here![:D] There are the RTM folks v.s the Turn Based (and si-move) folks. Plus, we got people who think CC and CM are crap, v.s. those who bought them but the thousands. Personally, Close Combat IS dated, but it was a groundbreaker, and a major sucess IMNSHO. CM has had three good iterations.[:'(]

At to real time games.....I love HOI2, but how can you call a game that covers 10 years but can be finished (solo) in one month "REAL TIME". Get real. You can pause the single player mode, too. If we had a real real time game, the computer would always win solo, 'cause most of us are not physically trained to multi task as fast as war demands![:-]

I didn't count, but it appeared that most of the posts did not have the phrase ASL in it. Too bad. It was a great game, and with the advances in graphis and multiple processors, I think it can be done. I do like Paradox[X(] (but not as well as Matrix[>:]. I only hope the do NOT try to make it a real time game. The phase system worked well for Avalon Hill, and I'd like to see them retain it.

One final question:TO RAVENHOOD....Nice Icon, it begs the inevatable question...Boy or Girl?[X(] I know that's not PC, but the ladies seem to be making inroads into the gaming industry.[:)] Having read many of your posts, I will make the sexist guess that you are male, because you know a hell of a lot about computer wargaming, and statistically, there are more males involved.[:D] If I'm wrong, I beg your pardon.[X(][&o][:(][&o]

[Brigz]

ORIGINAL: TOCarroll
One final question:TO RAVENHOOD....Nice Icon, it begs the inevatable question...Boy or Girl?[X(] I know that's not PC, but the ladies seem to be making inroads into the gaming industry.[:)] Having read many of your posts, I will make the sexist guess that you are male, because you know a hell of a lot about computer wargaming, and statistically, there are more males involved.[:D] If I'm wrong, I beg your pardon.[X(][&o][:(][&o]

Interesting. As one of the older people on this forum, I've often wondered how many actually know who's picture that is in Ravenhood's avitar. I know who she is and just using that picture proves Ravenhood is definitely a guy.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs
Interesting. As one of the older people on this forum, I've often wondered how many actually know who's picture that is in Ravenhood's avitar. I know who she is and just using that picture proves Ravenhood is definitely a guy.

I still think it looks like a guy in drag. Its a very very bad picture. Assuming its the same woman, I like this pick of Ravinhood's much much better...

[Brigz]

It's her alright. Ain't no guy. Here's a larger shot and another good picture.

[Zap]

Yeah, would this make a great movie or what? Gamers at each others throats toating their own type of wargame as the best. It might make a a great war movie.

[Doobious]

Peter are there any updates? ASL might just be the greatest board game ever created and I am dying to hear about your progress! [&o]

[Perturabo]

Who is that girl?