Pearl Harbor Poll

sethwrkr · Post by **sethwrkr** » Thu Oct 19, 2000 6:41 am

I think the historical is not harsh enough. We all know the japanese whiffed on december 7th...

I think that there should be an option for a historical allied first turn...but japan gets to do what they want.

That is break the carriers into 2 task forces of three for more striking power...staging troops closer to the front etc.

I mean really...if it is a suprise attack then i should be able to do what I want. I surely can do it beter than those wus japanese did. Why not have a division or 2 follow up with landings imediately after the initial carrier strike.

Seth

Major Tom · Post by **Major Tom** » Thu Oct 19, 2000 9:15 pm

Well, a historical first turn, is a HISTORICAL first turn, not the possibly best first turn, and so on.

I am thinking of putting together, or could give some advice on, a few hypothetical scenarios (what if there was a late showing of the Washington Treaty, what if the war was delayed by 6 months, AND what if the Japanese paid more attention for a better strategic war). This last scenario would cover what you are looking at. What if the Japanese had better prepared for this war? Units in better positions, TF's better distributed, BETTER types of ships built (more Anti-submarine Destroyers vs. expensive super-Destroyers, etc...).

The NON-HISTORICAL turn will allow you to implement a start of the war that is better to your personal plan. However, the Allies would get this benefit as well.

Jeremy

BIGDOG · Post by **BIGDOG** » Sun Oct 22, 2000 12:18 am

As for the poll starting back from the original Pacific War,
I have averaged 4 BB sunk with damgage to the remaining 4 averaging approx 50

The first time I played the game I found this shocking as it seroiusly limits the American naval offensive capabilities in the early stages of the game. But as I have played the 1941 campaign scenario over 10 times now, I have come to realize that the true weapon of the game is the aircraft. Not just the aircraft carriers but the aircraft them self. So even in games where the japanese have had great success on the opening attack against Pearl, once the US has had a chance to fully mobilize there air force the japanese have little chance. But the Allied player must get his engineers to forward bases and they must be protected by strong land forces.

If you ignore the result of the Pearl attack and get a strong land force with engineers to Rabaul ASAP, you will find that once the air base is built up the japanese will be hard pressed to land troops in that area. Also make sure you build up your air forces on the Hawaii Islands.

In Pacwar attacking a strongly defended airbase with your carriers can often lead to loss of your carrier fleet.

Although shocking the results of the Pearl harbour attack has little affect on the campaign.

As the admiral Yamamoto (sp) of the japanese fleet quoted after the sucessful assult on Pearl (paraphased) "we have just attacked the toe of a giant, and we have awaken him"

As for the issue about Declaration of war: it is a coward who strikes when no one is looking.

------------------
To be right you have to realize that no one is right

Nimits · Post by **Nimits** » Mon Oct 23, 2000 3:13 am

The problem is not that too many battleships are sunk, but that there is no way to raise them.

Silence · Post by **Silence** » Mon Oct 23, 2000 8:30 pm

Just a thought for Yogi Yohan or whatever....
The Swastika flag is hated and reviled by Americans. The Rising Sun for millions of Americans is also a symbol of hatred, aggression, murder and sorrow. You tell us that it is a symbol of a Democratic nation and it is for peace? Realize how far the Americans have come for allowing such a symbol to be allowed again. My own Grandfather has nothing but hate in his heart for that symbol of a democratic nation. For the hundreds he knew who died at the very hands of men who sank his ship on Dec 7. The troop ship that was sank off Guadacanal where he was Quatermaster and hundreds died. You tell him that the thousands who died on Iwo Jima, Tarawa, Leyte Gulf, and other places where he served as to protect your symbol of a democratic nation. You say it is a symbol of a Democratic Nation? You believe they were in vain to defeat that symbol? let me tell you this: Even though he hates it and thinks it is an abomination as much as the Swastika he tells me that he fought for your right to be able to diplay it and say what you want about it. So dont ridicule or demean the men and women who gave their lives so that Japan could display the Rising Sun. Symbol of Murder for millions of men, women, and children around the Pacific. The symbol of Democratic Nation........

Major Tom · Post by **Major Tom** » Tue Oct 24, 2000 1:39 am

Silence,

This debate is long dead. No real sense in briging it back up. You bring up valid points, but, you neglect others. Every flag is hated somewhere, as every flag has some sort of autrocity behind it. We as victors write the history books. We include all of the true bad actions of our enemies, yet, rarely ever put in any of our own, as this is what we remember most. Bring the United States flag to Guatemala, Cuba, Iraq, Nicaragua, Vietnam, China, Amerindian Reserves, most African states, etc. and you will get the EXACT same revulsion and anger toward it your grandfather has for the Rising Sun.

The swastika was a political flag, one based entirely around the superiority of certain people and inferiority of others. The Rising Sun was a naval ensign for 40+ years before any autrocities against American's occurred. There is a real difference between the two. If the Japanese meatball flag was more prevailant in allied propaganda then it would be seen as the symbol of Japanese autrocities and be the one banned.

Regarding the Pearl Harbour shipkill rate I am pretty much going to leave it as it is. WitP will have to deal with this one.

Jeremy

Paul Dyer · Post by **Paul Dyer** » Tue Oct 24, 2000 2:20 am

Since we're back on flags, let me say I'm so happy with the game I'll even overlook you putting the New Zealand units under the Australian flag. This is an UNFORGIVEABLE sin under any other circumstances.

Silence · Post by **Silence** » Tue Oct 24, 2000 7:12 pm

Hey thanks Major Tom. Good to see you monitor the Boards. It just was good to show my Grandpa these boards. He then wanted to have me say something for him about it. (you know the flag stuff) Sorry if I beat a dead horse =). Again thanks. By the way Pearl Harbor is okay in the game. I have had even results with most of the time 4 BB being sunk and a host of other small craft. And thanks for bringing back this great game. I havent been able to play since mid 90's because my computers have been too fast. I love it and thanks to all the Matrix team.

Yogi Yohan · Post by **Yogi Yohan** » Wed Oct 25, 2000 1:58 am

Silence, since you adressed me, you deserve an answer to your legitimate questions:

I'm not going to debate anything, but resume my position again, since you seem to be under the impression i have been reviling your vets. I have done no such thing, i have nothing but respect for those who put their life on the line for democracy.

My point was this: Japan began a war of agression against the US. This is very bad behaviour, to say the least, but hardly unique. Many countries around the world have at one point or another been attacked by another country. In Europe, allmost everyone has attacked everyone else at some time. This is no reason to consider the war flag of that nation "tainted" or "dishonorable".
That the victim of the attack at Pearl Harbour was the United States should make no difference.

I honestly belive that flags should be considered to represent the people that are currently flying them (if there is). That's why i still dispise the Swastika. That's why i revere the Rising Sun. (But i wouldn't have i 1941...)

And now, really, really, lets leave this subject.