BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

[Reiryc]

ORIGINAL: ORANGE
Well if you are speaking about children why would you raise them in this evil land where the government is plotting to enslave and imprison you. Where they will send you to prison for jay walking. [:D]

What makes you think I am talking about children? [8|]

Hey look, another strawman to boot. Oh well, I guess when you can't win an argument it's best for you to make one up and defeat it! [:D]

[ORANGE]

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

ORIGINAL: ORANGE
Well if you are speaking about children why would you raise them in this evil land where the government is plotting to enslave and imprison you. Where they will send you to prison for jay walking. [:D]

What makes you think I am talking about children? [8|]

Hey look, another strawman to boot. Oh well, I guess when you can't win an argument it's best for you to make one up and defeat it! [:D]

?????? All I said was IF you are speaking about children. Look up what IF means. You could tell me why you cannot leave then we could discuss it because I would have no idea why you feel you cannot leave. You are so filled with hate you try to twist everything. No wonder why something so complex as the Constitution and laws have you filled with hate.

You keep trying to change the discussion so there really is not reason to try to discuss anything with you.

[Reiryc]

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

?????? All I said was IF you are speaking about children. Look up what IF means. You could tell me why you cannot leave then we could discuss it because I would have no idea why you feel you cannot leave. You are so filled with hate you try to twist everything. No wonder why something so complex as the Constitution and laws have you filled with hate.

You keep trying to change the discussion so there really is not reason to try to discuss anything with you.

Ah yes, the innocent game. You tried this with jim H in the macbook discussion as well when you made implications about what he does or does not do on a computer.

The strawman has to do with your comment about jaywalking which of course misrepresented what I said. Anyways, it's been clear from the beginning that you weren't interested in having a discussion but were playing the 'gotcha' game. That's why you tried the strawman about the 'southern' states or played the game with state(s) or with the word few when I mentioned 2 states. The kids comment was just another one of those 'gotcha' questions that made implications based upon false premises that you put forth as truth.

Discussions are more concerned with the points being made rather than diddling around with things listed above like you've done.

[morvwilson]

Lets see if I can clean up a few loose ends here.
 
National ID (in USA) I don't think will happen. There maybe some standardization on the state driver's licenses but I don't think national ID will happen because it would cost one political party at the poles. With National ID cards comes ID checks at the voting booth.
 
The problem with letting a government take over any task is that when they mess it up, there is no complaint window. You can't sue the government with out their permission.
Example: I work as a home inspector, when you buy a house I check it for you. On one inspection about 10 years ago I was checking a house that was about 5 years old. It had two fireplaces. One in the living room and the other in the master bedroom. Instead of extending above the roof line, both chimneys ended in the attic.[X(]  The city inspector had signed off on the final inspection card required before the house could be sold by the builder with out noting this glaring fault. However, you can't go after the city inspector. According to the courts, the City inspector has no liability.
 
Once the government takes over something, it is almost impossible to get that item away from them. Especially at the federal level. States, cities and counties are easier since they are closer to the voters and there are things like initiatives that can be done to wrest control out of their hands. But the feds? Very different.
 
anyway, my two cents.

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro
I'm am simply pointing out the stupidity of giving any additional power to a government that will not perform its duties which it already has more than enough authority to carry out. Dummy's and cowards will bend over for them tail the day they die-that's how they are, right?

Well if you are not a dummy or a coward what are you doing about this?

I have gone to the local immigration office over six times in years past. I gave up on that about 8 years ago as they clearly had no intention, or as they said, the man power, to address the situations I reported to them. The head of the agency here in Las Vegas was busted for falsifying documents to legalize illegals-he probably got another government job. I also had called one state senator, had written letters, and discussed this with pols as they solicited support. It is quite clear that very few politicians or bureaucrats , regardless of party affiliation, have any intention of addressing the problem. There is not much more I can do at this point except to vote for someone that might fix the problem-and to voice my frustration, if that's OK with you. If you were an American, you would know what I'm talking about. If you are, then you are either very stupid, or a coward-if there is another option, other than you want to destroy the United states by mass unchecked immigration, please feel free to educate me. If you are not an American, then you simply are talking about something you know nothing about.

ORIGINAL:
You complain that they are not doing anything then when they try to do something about it you complain about that too. I guess as long as you are complaining you are not a dummy or coward right?

That statement N/A and /or stupid.

ORIGINAL:
What power does a national ID card give the Government?

It is clearly a stepping stone to more control by the central government-it is diametrically opposed to local government which is the heart of a free civilization. It will also add billions more to the federal governments budget-waste on top of waste. This translates into more taxes for those that are legal citizens to support another government boondoggle.

If I thought that a new ID would jolt the government to stop the invasion from the south, I would whole heartedly support it. Given the established track record of the government, it is clear that only a fool or a liar would support such a plan.

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, but I had to work this morning so I could pay taxes and health insurance to take care of millions of illegals-it is a heavy burden.

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: ORANGE
Hello Ursa MAior,

First I apologize for painting everyone in former communist countries with such a broad stroke. You are correct to point out that many people not only did not support these governments but even resisted them.

I understand Poles are doing very well in the UK where a lot have emigrated to and I hope the Polish economy keeps growing. My worries are with the organized crime rings in the countries. I myself am not an overly religious man but I appreciate the morals that religion teaches children. It seems that there is a large minority in the former communist countries that are ruthless and lacking in similar values to my own. I find that in general I share more in common with the Hispanic immigrants in my country than those from Eastern Europe.

I have a personal prejudice against Eastern Europeans because I rightly or wrongly think they are more likely to try to milk the system and not contribute.
Best of luck. [:)]

Well no offense is taken. Yes the poles are doing well in the EU a significant share of the northern ireland police officers are poles cuz they were looking for roman catholics, and th poles are happen to be one. [:D] Yes unfortunately some eastern europeans are so called financial refugees. Organized crime is more of a problem from less developed ex-commie-states like Rumania, Bulgaria but most of all Ukraina and Albania.

I see there is a big resistence toward an ID card which is completely part of normal life in EU, still dont understand why. In our country it works well against illegal immigrnts who come from surprising lands like Afghanistan, Algeria and the like.

Rgrds

[Zap]

Reiryc,
You have served in the military or are presently serving right? That does not seem to me to be hate for your counrty or government but a sense of duty and love for it. I fail to see the hate desrcibed by Orange in any of your arguments.

[Reiryc]

ORIGINAL: Zap

Reiryc,
You have served in the military or are presently serving right? That does not seem to me to be hate for your counrty or government but a sense of duty and love for it. I fail to see the hate desrcibed by Orange in any of your arguments.

Haven't served in the military at any time...what I wanted to do as a career wasn't an option in the military for me so I went to college instead.

The type of hate I have for the government is in it's monopoly on force and it's ever increasing assumption of power over states and individuals.

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

I see there is a big resistence toward an ID card which is completely part of normal life in EU, still dont understand why. In our country it works well against illegal immigrnts who come from surprising lands like Afghanistan, Algeria and the like.

Rgrds

A national ID could be beneficial for the U.S. The problem is that the government is not trusted to do the right thing with its new data bank. We have a government which wants to give various Id's to illegals, including drivers licenses. What difference will a new photo card make? Could it be counterfeited? Will there be corrupt officials that hand them out to illegals? I don't like being so pessimistic, but under the circumstances, I have no choice.

If I understand the situation correctly, in the E.U., people are allowed to move about freely between the member states-for work or to actually relocate. I assume it would be quite difficult for a Hungarian policeman to tap into German data banks to check out someone who claims to be German. With an EU wide system, that would not be a problem. Under those new European circumstances, an EU ID card would make sense. As for a national ID card for Hungarians, I suppose that would be helpful also due to the myriad of borders and nation states in the area. It is still open to abuse, and apparently has not stopped illegal immigration into various European states.

If the U.S. government was to do a few things-like make an earnest effort to seal the southern border to terrorists and migrants, then I would be more inclined to support a national ID card, but it probably wouldn't be necessary then. The pols like to babble about "comprehensive" reform this, that and the other. When the politicians start talking "comprehensive", they are really saying "obfuscate", "delay", and "bury".

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

A national ID could be beneficial for the U.S. The problem is that the government is not trusted to do the right thing with its new data bank. We have a government which wants to give various Id's to illegals, including drivers licenses. What difference will a new photo card make? Could it be counterfeited? Will there be corrupt officials that hand them out to illegals? I don't like being so pessimistic, but under the circumstances, I have no choice.

If I understand the situation correctly, in the E.U., people are allowed to move about freely between the member states-for work or to actually relocate. I assume it would be quite difficult for a Hungarian policeman to tap into German data banks to check out someone who claims to be German. With an EU wide system, that would not be a problem. Under those new European circumstances, an EU ID card would make sense. As for a national ID card for Hungarians, I suppose that would be helpful also due to the myriad of borders and nation states in the area. It is still open to abuse, and apparently has not stopped illegal immigration into various European states.

If the U.S. government was to do a few things-like make an earnest effort to seal the southern border to terrorists and migrants, then I would be more inclined to support a national ID card, but it probably wouldn't be necessary then. The pols like to babble about "comprehensive" reform this, that and the other. When the politicians start talking "comprehensive", they are really saying "obfuscate", "delay", and "bury".

We row in the same boat. I lost my faith in the govt, which only acts in its interests and not ours e.g. we are in the middle of reforms which in reality were started only to cover how bad they really were at governing. As of IDs there is corruption (like everywhere unfortunately), but the majority of the people is still trustworthy (albeit not for too long I think), so it could have its uses. As of illegal immigrants yes most of them goes to other cutries to milk the system so should be treated as such se the recent case of the murderd woman by a rumanian in Rome. Even in Germany people are thinking about setting up camps for criminals under 14 yrs (mostly illegal immigrants) cuz according to the law they cannot be punished under 14. But they have to be restrained somehow from commiting more crimes. It is not a good idea but there is not any better.

As of politicians. I dunno how is it in the US but here (in Hungary) we cannot make our politicians responsible even when acting completely against their program (for fulfilling which they were elected). Probably we will need a new constitution cuz the current patched up version of the communist one is far from ideal. Maybe a new way of selecting polticians should be invented. For me they representate themselves, then the people who supported their election, and only rarely the will of the people who elected them.

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

As of politicians. I dunno how is it in the US but here (in Hungary) we cannot make our politicians responsible even when acting completely against their program (for fulfilling which they were elected). Probably we will need a new constitution cuz the current patched up version of the communist one is far from ideal. Maybe a new way of selecting polticians should be invented. For me they representate themselves, then the people who supported their election, and only rarely the will of the people who elected them.

It is possible to "recall" an elected official in the U.S., but it is a long road to travel. No doubt, it is a very low percentage of recall efforts which actually result in a pol be removed from office. Once elected, they are almost like royalty. All you can do is to wait for the next election. Thankfully, there are a few good ones, just a little too rare.

I remember reading about the Hungarian fiasco a year or two ago (maybe more-time fly's)-that was a good one. That mess was headed up by a very popular head of government-I assume he is still in. This is just more reason to justify limiting government to the bare necessities. They simply can't be trusted.

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

I remember reading about the Hungarian fiasco a year or two ago (maybe more-time fly's)-that was a good one. That mess was headed up by a very popular head of government-I assume he is still in. This is just more reason to justify limiting government to the bare necessities. They simply can't be trusted.

Yeah in a leaked tape the current MP (who was reelected in 2006) admitted to his party members that they have done every possibel trick to get reelected he said literally 'We lied, day and night and on the weekends too'). After that for the first time in 90 yrs! there were riots in Hungary. Not surprisingly this MP guy is an ex-Hitlerjugend I mean socialist youth leader. An even bigger shock came after that, when armed thugs dressed as policemen (some of them were probably real policemen) cranked down an oppsition meeting. Guess what no consequences. There were stories of masked man beating up tourists and innocent guests of a restaurant. When someone was asking for a lawyer he was told "This is not America you a×××hole!" A couple of days later the ruling socialists announced a program COMPLETELY opposite of their election program.

While obviously braking evry written and non-written rules of democaracy noone made any serious steps against them not the EU nobody.

[geozero]

never mind[:D]

[ORANGE]

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

?????? All I said was IF you are speaking about children. Look up what IF means. You could tell me why you cannot leave then we could discuss it because I would have no idea why you feel you cannot leave. You are so filled with hate you try to twist everything. No wonder why something so complex as the Constitution and laws have you filled with hate.

You keep trying to change the discussion so there really is not reason to try to discuss anything with you.

Ah yes, the innocent game. You tried this with jim H in the macbook discussion as well when you made implications about what he does or does not do on a computer.

The strawman has to do with your comment about jaywalking which of course misrepresented what I said. Anyways, it's been clear from the beginning that you weren't interested in having a discussion but were playing the 'gotcha' game. That's why you tried the strawman about the 'southern' states or played the game with state(s) or with the word few when I mentioned 2 states. The kids comment was just another one of those 'gotcha' questions that made implications based upon false premises that you put forth as truth.

Discussions are more concerned with the points being made rather than diddling around with things listed above like you've done.

What the hell? The innocent game? What reason do you have to stay in this country if you think the government is so bad and they have monopoly on power? I can't think of many if you hate the government as you have said. Tell me the reasons.

You were the one who brought up jay walking. I did not. You said disagree with the government's final decision on an issue involving you and you will go to jail, then you can try to remedy the issue in court. This is untrue in the vast majority of cases. Mostly they will give a judgment, ticket or fine. And you can still disagree with it and not get thrown in jail. It is just fear mongering and fallacy. No wonder why you have problems with the government. They would not play this stupid game you play. Though they may send you for psychiatric evaluation to evaluate if you were competent.

[ORANGE]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

A national ID could be beneficial for the U.S. The problem is that the government is not trusted to do the right thing with its new data bank. We have a government which wants to give various Id's to illegals, including drivers licenses. What difference will a new photo card make? Could it be counterfeited? Will there be corrupt officials that hand them out to illegals? I don't like being so pessimistic, but under the circumstances, I have no choice.

If I understand the situation correctly, in the E.U., people are allowed to move about freely between the member states-for work or to actually relocate. I assume it would be quite difficult for a Hungarian policeman to tap into German data banks to check out someone who claims to be German. With an EU wide system, that would not be a problem. Under those new European circumstances, an EU ID card would make sense. As for a national ID card for Hungarians, I suppose that would be helpful also due to the myriad of borders and nation states in the area. It is still open to abuse, and apparently has not stopped illegal immigration into various European states.

If the U.S. government was to do a few things-like make an earnest effort to seal the southern border to terrorists and migrants, then I would be more inclined to support a national ID card, but it probably wouldn't be necessary then. The pols like to babble about "comprehensive" reform this, that and the other. When the politicians start talking "comprehensive", they are really saying "obfuscate", "delay", and "bury".

This is just a jumble of your personal feelings and that makes it hard to deal with the real world. Will corrupt officials at the DMV sell ID cards illegally? I have no idea. Someone may do it. That does not mean that this is systematic or that it is bound to happen. I would like to know what happened to that state employee that got caught. I would guess jail time and losing their job. And then there is the little gem of a government that wants to give drivers licenses to illegal immigrants. Those are also state governments and there are reasons for this that make sense. Can they be counterfeited? Probably but so can a lot of government and non-government documents. So? It is my belief that this would be a lot harder to counterfeit than currency so I will not cry about what has not happened yet.

[06 Maestro]

Mr. Orange; my statements are based on common knowledge which are in turn based on facts. If you wish to have total faith in the central government, that's your business. You should be able to understand that there is good reason for many not to trust the central government.

This is just a jumble of your personal feelings and that makes it hard to deal with the real world. Will corrupt officials at the DMV sell ID cards illegally? I have no idea. Someone may do it. That does not mean that this is systematic or that it is bound to happen.

It seems perfectly rational to anticipate future performance or actions based on a past established practice by either an individual or an organization. While its true that is involves making assumptions, this is a normal practice in many areas of human activity.

ORIGINAL:
I would like to know what happened to that state employee that got caught.

You can goggle the Las Vegas Review Journal. With a little bit of work, you can find the story. As an American, you should be aware that the head of the local immigration office is a federal employee-as are all Immigration and Naturalization Service employees are. It is suppose to be a federal responsibility to grant status. The feds don't like anyone stepping in their area-unless of course it is someone helping illegals, as so called "sanctuary cities" do.

ORIGINAL:
And then there is the little gem of a government that wants to give drivers licenses to illegal immigrants. Those are also state governments and there are reasons for this that make sense. Can they be counterfeited? Probably but so can a lot of government and non-government documents. So? It is my belief that this would be a lot harder to counterfeit than currency so I will not cry about what has not happened yet.

These things happen every day of the week. Police officers have openly stated that it is a waste of time to even give traffic tickets to illegals, as they don't pay and don't show up for court. Why even give them a license under these circumstances? It really seems like you are not aware of the burden that these people are putting on our services (including the locking up of violent criminals) on the various governments of the US. In view of the fact that Mexicans have flooded nearly every state of the Union, I can't help to wonder where you live at. Wherever it is, it must be a nice place if you can just forget about traffic tickets, or jaywalking tickets, ignore court summons, and not worry about getting arrested.[:D]

I really don't want to be insulting, but are you an adult?

[ORANGE]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro



Mr. Orange; my statements are based on common knowledge which are in turn based on facts. If you wish to have total faith in the central government, that's your business. You should be able to understand that there is good reason for many not to trust the central government.

This is just a jumble of your personal feelings and that makes it hard to deal with the real world. Will corrupt officials at the DMV sell ID cards illegally? I have no idea. Someone may do it. That does not mean that this is systematic or that it is bound to happen.

It seems perfectly rational to anticipate future performance or actions based on a past established practice by either an individual or an organization. While its true that is involves making assumptions, this is a normal practice in many areas of human activity.

ORIGINAL:
I would like to know what happened to that state employee that got caught.

You can goggle the Las Vegas Review Journal. With a little bit of work, you can find the story. As an American, you should be aware that the head of the local immigration office is a federal employee-as are all Immigration and Naturalization Service employees are. It is suppose to be a federal responsibility to grant status. The feds don't like anyone stepping in their area-unless of course it is someone helping illegals, as so called "sanctuary cities" do.

ORIGINAL:
And then there is the little gem of a government that wants to give drivers licenses to illegal immigrants. Those are also state governments and there are reasons for this that make sense. Can they be counterfeited? Probably but so can a lot of government and non-government documents. So? It is my belief that this would be a lot harder to counterfeit than currency so I will not cry about what has not happened yet.

These things happen every day of the week. Police officers have openly stated that it is a waste of time to even give traffic tickets to illegals, as they don't pay and don't show up for court. Why even give them a license under these circumstances? It really seems like you are not aware of the burden that these people are putting on our services (including the locking up of violent criminals) on the various governments of the US. In view of the fact that Mexicans have flooded nearly every state of the Union, I can't help to wonder where you live at. Wherever it is, it must be a nice place if you can just forget about traffic tickets, or jaywalking tickets, ignore court summons, and not worry about getting arrested.[:D]

I really don't want to be insulting, but are you an adult?

Well I understand some of the issues with immigration but it has nothing to do with the national ID this thread is about. It actually might help fight illegal immigration. I have seen police state that they do not arrest illegal immigrants for being here illegally because of limited jail space but I have never personally seen an officer say that he would not ticket an illegal.

As for where I live I see illegal immigrants all the time but I guess I am not that big a racist that I have to blame all of my problems on them and mindlessly oppose all new initiatives because of them.

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: ORANGE


As for where I live I see illegal immigrants all the time but I guess I am not that big a racist that I have to blame all of my problems on them and mindlessly oppose all new initiatives because of them.

Oh my God, are you for real?[:D] You are starting to sound like someone else I came accross on this forum. Can you say "sock puppet"?
Your line of BS is boring, in fact, you are a bore. Perhaps you should focus on gaming for a while, that is, of course, if you have any games.