WWII boming debate

[Ike99]

bradfordkay-First of all, Nagasaki was the center of the Portugese - Japanese trade that started in the 1570's, so to say that Japan was nicely isolated before Perry so rudely forced trade upon Japan is a misleading statement.

I need to correct you on a couple of factual points Bradford. Nagasaki was not the center of Portugese trade. There had been no Portugese trade in Japan for over 200 years. There had been no European trade in Japan except for the dutch and they were only allowed one ship to port a year.

Yes, Japan was very much an isolationist nation. 250 years of it.

BTW, First time I ever heard of a foreign power sailing into any port threatening they would shell their capital if they didn´t comply to their demands as a ¨visit¨ Give me a break.

Do a little more research on the topic and not put out false information.

ILCK-They enslaved millions more Asians - 10m in Indonesia alone and the death rate was 75 of every 100 slaves so do the math on that casualty rate. They subjected millions of Indonesians and Vietnamese to starvation and death during a preventable famine in 1944.

And how many millions upon millions upon even more uncounted (estimates only) died and were enslaved under the British Empire? How about you study the revolt in Irak where the British used posion gas and killed 10,000 people from 1915-1920 (same guy who organside Dresden BTW) How about we mention Batang Kali in Malaya, The Bengali Famine in 1943-44 that killed 4 million people.

I can go on and on ILCK but don´t have all day. The British Empire was about, subjugation, humiliation and exploitation. Period. Have no illusions. Any resistance was met with brutal reprissals described as ¨glorious victories¨ in the propaganda.

Then you can study how the Phillipines revolted against the US for independence up until 1913. Estimate, about a million dead. Result, the Phillipines become an American territoy.

Yes, do a little more research. Get some nice, well rounded information. Then come back to me and try to throw a Nanking guilt trip on me. A little more historical research and a little less ¨Victory at Sea¨ watching can go a long way.

Prince of Eckmühl-And that, gentleman, is Ike's troll for the day. Throw out a bunch of B.S. and watch the great-unwashed respond.

No I was just trying to find out what this persons problem is. He keeps talking about me me on threads I´m not even on. Now he is saying I hate this country and that country.

Why?

Because I don´t think strategic bombing was not that effective and think Japan was going to surrender Atomic bomb or no Atomic bomb?

He said he saw posters in Brazil that suprised him and made him angry. Is he venting on me? I didn´t put them up.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

... Perry returned to Japan with more ships and more guns. Japan again refused. So Perry threatened he would shell Tokyo if they didn´t open up their country and harbors to them.

So under threat of violence Japan was forced to sign a treaty with the US. This treaty forced them to provide provisions for American ships that docked in Japan.

Yes, Perry threatened to shell Edo, but the result was a peace treaty that provided for:

Peace and friendship between the United States and Japan.
Opening of two ports to American ships at Shimoda and Hakodate
Help for any American ships wrecked on the Japanese coast and protection for shipwrecked persons
Permission for American ships to buy supplies, coal, water, and other necessary provisions in Japanese ports.

... Commodore Perry broke down barriers that separated Japan from the rest of the world. Today the Japanese celebrate his expedition with annual black ship festivals. Perry lived in Newport, Rhode Island, which also celebrates a Black Ship festival in July. In Perry's honor, Newport has become Shimoda's sister city.

So it's all not as dark a picture as you paint it, Ike; today Japan actually celebrates Perry's arrival.

ORIGINAL: Ike99
You kicked in their door. You started the fight with them. The Japanese didn´t sail into San Francisco and make demands with cannon and threaten. They didn´t sail across the ocean and attempt to undermine your Sovereignty. This was done to them and they reacted.

The US didn't actually start a fight, but threatened to. By definition, as an isolationist nation, Japan wouldn't sail anywhere to demand anything from anyone -- although that drastically changed just prior to WW II -- so your argument isn't a valid comparison.

And don't forget this:
Another big reason the United States wanted to open Japan was to make sure shipwrecked sailors in Japan got good treatment. A whaling ship called the Lagoda was shipwrecked in Japan many years before and many of the sailors had been treated very badly. Also, some Japanese sailors that had been shipwrecked wanted to return to Japan but hadn’t been allowed passage.

[bradfordkay]

Ike:"There had been no European trade in Japan except for the dutch and they were only allowed one ship to port a year. "

So, you agree that Japan conducted trade with foreign nations, just that they didn't want to conduct trade with America. They didn't want to do it so badly that they would fire upon any vessels trying to enter their ports. Yes, such a peace loving people. I don't blame Perry for threatening the Japanese; after all, his ships were threatened (fired upon) by Japanese guns as soon as they arrived.



And you still avoided the main point of my post: that there was a huge difference between the allies conduct of the war and Japan's. Did the western allies rape and murder hundreds of thousands of civilians? No.

Answer my earlier question: Do you really believe that there was a quicker and less damaging to the Japanese people method of ending the war than the bombing campaign? Back up your answer with some information.

Your earlier comment about the US needing to abrogate their agreement for no seperate peace is invalid, because the Japanese government made no overtures for us to consider. We had made demands for surrender, and there was no response. The ball was in the Japanese court and we were waiting for a return...

[tocaff]

Please, nobody needs to tell me what he's posting anymore because after this I don't care.  The posters were of Bush when Iraq was invaded.  How many years ago?  There are none anymore, not current, not relevant.  Good bye Mario.

[Ike99]

So, you agree that Japan conducted trade with foreign nations, just that they didn't want to conduct trade with America. They didn't want to do it so badly that they would fire upon any vessels trying to enter their ports. Yes, such a peace loving people. I don't blame Perry for threatening the Japanese; after all, his ships were threatened (fired upon) by Japanese guns as soon as they arrived.

No don´t agree. I don´t say Japan conducted trade with foreign nations, just that they didn´t want to conduct trade with America.

[:D][:D][:D]

[Terminus]

Do you think typing in that ugly font gives your strange ideas more gravitas?

[DEB]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Do you think typing in that ugly font gives your strange ideas more gravitas?

Maybe he wishes us to think he is mad ?

[Terminus]

He convinced me of that a good while ago...

[tocaff]

They loved him in the WITP forum too.

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Do you think typing in that ugly font gives your strange ideas more gravitas?

I am going to find a way to use the term 'gravitas' during happy hour. It will be difficult, but nothing will stop me.

[DEB]

The British Empire was about, subjugation, humiliation and exploitation. Period. Have no illusions. Any resistance was met with brutal reprissals described as ¨glorious victories¨ in the propaganda.

The British Empire was mainly about trade. ( We also set most of it free eventually. ) Subjugation etc. came with Empire; as almost all white men ( Non-British included ) felt themselves superior to the "natives" and that they needed to set "modern" / Western laws/standards.
In a similar way the Samurai felt themselves superior to the Ashigaru; this was common in Britain also between the upper/middle and lower classes and it's therefore not much of a suprise that it was exported.

Resistance/rebellion has always met with brutal reprissals throughout history. Britain was no different here to anyone else, Japan included.

If the British Empire was as BAD as you suggust, why do you think most of our old colonies want to be part of the Commonwealth?

By the way, why is your FROM stated as "Tojo's Loins"?
If I was Japanese ( or picking something Japanese ) I certainly would not pick Tojo as anything to admire! Why not Yamamoto ( like the picture?) ?

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Do you think typing in that ugly font gives your strange ideas more gravitas?

larger type = bigger, better argument? Or is Ike just yelling at us?

[DEB]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

larger type = bigger, better argument? Or is Ike just yelling at us?

I think it's the typing equivilent of yelling.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Do you think typing in that ugly font gives your strange ideas more gravitas?

larger type = bigger, better argument? Or is Ike just yelling at us?

I can forgive the large font. Some of Ike's ARR graphics are priceless...

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk
I am going to find a way to use the term 'gravitas' during happy hour. It will be difficult, but nothing will stop me.

"O caritas" is a chick killer, too, along with such other infinitesma as "plenitude," "Descartesism," and "oblonji-blonja."

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: DEB
"Tojo's Loins"

Great restaurant on the Ginza modeled after American A&W root beer stands, featuring the deep fried breaded pork sandwich that is reputed to have killed more Americans through coronary disease than Long Lance torpedoes ever did through hull penetrations..

[tocaff]

Lends new meaning to being porked to death.  

[ILCK]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

And how many millions upon millions upon even more uncounted (estimates only) died and were enslaved under the British Empire? How about you study the revolt in Irak where the British used posion gas and killed 10,000 people from 1915-1920 (same guy who organside Dresden BTW) How about we mention Batang Kali in Malaya, The Bengali Famine in 1943-44 that killed 4 million people.

I can go on and on ILCK but don´t have all day. The British Empire was about, subjugation, humiliation and exploitation. Period. Have no illusions. Any resistance was met with brutal reprissals described as ¨glorious victories¨ in the propaganda.

This is almost sad and now I really have lost all respect for you - both intellectually and morally. You are an apologist in the worst way.

The British Empire was not a soft and fuzzy bunch by any means but even your sad little list is pathetic:

10,000 in 5 years, the Japanese could do that in about 5 hours.
Batan Kali was 26 guys (and also disputed), the Japanese wouldn't even put that body count in a daily report
The Bengal Famine was awful but it was a food panic created by the war started by the Japanese so I'm not sure you want to go there.

There was nothing about life under the British or French or American Empires that ever approximated the level of cruelty and stupidity that you saw under the Japanese Empire and especially since you can play with hundreds of years of the British Empire and I've got less than 20 on Japan and still can't get to my level of death and violence.

The great 20th century totalitarian states (Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Communist China and Imperial Japan) are on a whole other level of brutality than that which came before them because of the technological and ideological weapons at their disposal.

[Ike99]

The Bengal Famine was awful but it was a food panic created by the war started by the Japanese so I'm not sure you want to go there.

Oh yes I want to go there. Only in this forum would one read the Bengal Famine was caused by the Japanese!

Out of their own mouths they said it was caused by them. So much so the whole thing was hidden away and hopefully would dissapear. There was no rice shortage or rice panic.

The British had rice stockpiled and were even exporting rice out of the country. They tried to lie and say they weren´t. It was very much caused by them.

I´m an apologist in the worst way? What does one call an apologist who calls another an apologist?

Just a little known fact on this, when tens of thousands of starving people fled to Calcutta in 43´ the British officials had them forcibly removed to die out in the countryside. Out of site out of mind.

Yes the Bengal Famine was caused by the British. Very much so. And besides, there were about two dozen other famines in India that killed millions before this one that had absolutely nothing to do with Japanese. Had quite a bit to do with the British Empire though.[;)]

So the Bengal Famine was nothing new in how the
British took care of Indians as they exploited India.

Ahhh...interesting little fact here for you to try and spin away.

Sence 1948 and Indian independance from the British
Empire there have been no famines in India.

NONE. Not a single one.

Should give you a clue mate as to who was causing all the famines in India and it wasn´t the Japanese.

This is almost sad and now I really have lost all respect for you - both intellectually and morally.

You must be joking. I´m debating people who say the Japanese threatened Perry so he should have shelled Tokyo and the British Empire was primarily about trade.

Very Cromagnum. Kind of like the people who rape women while convincing themselves they really want it.

“I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion.”Winston Churchill 1942

[Dixie]

Why? Why was it taken from us so soon? [:(]