Barbarossa and Army Group Center in pictures

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

I see, then it is because the germans would have to bring the supply through sea to Helsinki and this makes one more point, no?

No. For Finland Helsinki is a primary supply source and therefore the supply route from Mannerheim (HQ-I) to Helsinki is a railway supply path when drawing supply to Finnish units.

But for Germany Helsinki is a secondary supply source and then Mannerheim is only allowed to draw a basic supply path to Helsinki, and Helsinki is obviously more than 4 hexes away (modified for weather). Mannerheim need to draw a railway supply path to a primary supply source for the German units as well and then the supply path must go overseas to a German city and then the German port that the overseas path enters counts as one hex.

A railway supply path can have non rail hexes (maximum 4 in fine weather). So Mannerheim can trace a railway supply path from where it is, through the road, then the rail, then the Baltic, then to a German Primary supply source.

The only difference as to the railway supply path that he traces for a Finnish unit, is 1 'extra hex' to cross the Baltic.

On the screenshot of post #83, Mannerheim is 2 hexes from the road, so he can trace a railway supply path to a primary supply source in Germany. He'd have 3 non rail hexes in his path, 2 of them to reach the road, and a 3rd to cross the Baltic.

I was refering to the statement from:

Original: Paulderynck
But if a German unit were up there on loan to the Finns, it would be OOS in Rain or Storm.

And he said rain or storm so in my previous post I ment that Germans is OOS in rain or storm and the reason for them to be so compared to the Finnish units.

[Hokum]

It's coming up nicely, but will there be an option to remove visual weather effects from the map?

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: Froonp

A railway supply path can have non rail hexes (maximum 4 in fine weather). So Mannerheim can trace a railway supply path from where it is, through the road, then the rail, then the Baltic, then to a German Primary supply source.

The only difference as to the railway supply path that he traces for a Finnish unit, is 1 'extra hex' to cross the Baltic.

On the screenshot of post #83, Mannerheim is 2 hexes from the road, so he can trace a railway supply path to a primary supply source in Germany. He'd have 3 non rail hexes in his path, 2 of them to reach the road, and a 3rd to cross the Baltic.

I was a little bit worried because my interpretation of the rules was like yours, and I couldn't understand the distinction Orm was making for the supply paths.

I must learn to read better. I did not see that Helsinki was only refered to as a port for overseas supply and not as a supply source along the route. I am sorry for my mistake. [:(]

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Hokum

It's coming up nicely, but will there be an option to remove visual weather effects from the map?

Yes.

I am using the option to add the visual weather effects to the map for easier visualization on the weather for the screenshots. The standard setting is without the visual weather.

Edit: Welcome to the forum Hokum. [:)]

[Joseignacio]

Sorry, Orm, I can be perfectly wrong since I seem to make a lot of mistakes of rule interpretation when playing the game, but what I meant, and I can perfectly be wrong, is that IMO, wether the HQ traces a supply line to Helsinki (secondary) and Helsinki to Germany or wether it traces directly to Germany using Helsinki only as a port, the HQ has unlimited hexes to reach Germany (or Helsinki-Germany) but has only 4 to be used out of the railway/road line.

Any of the two mentioned cases, Mannstein would have to spend 1 more hex to supply a German unit than a Finish one because to supply the german they would need to cross the sea and this would not apply to the finnish.

Thus, the four points that M. has to reach the supply let it be at a 4 hexex from a rail/road for the finnish but at 3 (4 minus 1 for crossing the sea - Rule 2.4.2) for the germans, but this interpretation I think it's wrong, since basing in the example (of Alejandretta) of rule 2.4.1, the 4 hexes (affected by climate, of course) can be used in every supply path, so ...

... Mannstein wouldn't have any problem to use his 4 hexes reduced to 2 in rain, to reach the road, reaching Helsinki, and use 1 of the new 4 hexes of the line Helsinki- Königsberg. All the same, it could "feed" with supply to german units up to 2 hexes away from itself in the worst climatic case.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Sorry, Orm, I can be perfectly wrong since I seem to make a lot of mistakes of rule interpretation when playing the game, but what I meant, and I can perfectly be wrong, is that IMO, wether the HQ traces a supply line to Helsinki (secondary) and Helsinki to Germany or wether it traces directly to Germany using Helsinki only as a port, the HQ has unlimited hexes to reach Germany (or Helsinki-Germany) but has only 4 to be used out of the railway/road line.

Any of the two mentioned cases, Mannstein would have to spend 1 more hex to supply a German unit than a Finish one because to supply the german they would need to cross the sea and this would not apply to the finnish.

Thus, the four points that M. has to reach the supply let it be at a 4 hexex from a rail/road for the finnish but at 3 (4 minus 1 for crossing the sea - Rule 2.4.2) for the germans, but this interpretation I think it's wrong, since basing in the example (of Alejandretta) of rule 2.4.1, the 4 hexes (affected by climate, of course) can be used in every supply path, so ...

... Mannstein wouldn't have any problem to use his 4 hexes reduced to 2 in rain, to reach the road, reaching Helsinki, and use 1 of the new 4 hexes of the line Helsinki- Königsberg. All the same, it could "feed" with supply to german units up to 2 hexes away from itself in the worst climatic case.

Thats the trouble, the road does not help when tracing supply for the Germans. Mannerheim is not allowed to use a railway path to Helsinki (because Helsinki is a secondary supply source to the Germans) when giving supply to the Germans. Just 4 normal hexes. When Mannerheim draws a railway supply path for the German units it must end in a German city and thus the extra hex for the port is enough for putting the Germans out of supply in rain or storm.

Cut from: 2.4.2 Tracing supply
Supply paths
You trace a supply path from a unit to a primary supply source.
If you are tracing a path from a secondary supply source to a primary supply source, it is a railway supply path.
If you are tracing any other supply path, it is a basic supply path.

A secondary supply source for a unit is:
ï an HQ the unit co-operates with (see 18.1); or
ï the capital city of a minor country controlled by the unit’s major power; or
ï the capital city of a major power, or a minor country, conquered by the unit’s major power, or by a major power the unit co-operates with.

Edit: spelling

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Thats the trouble, the road does not help when tracing supply for the Germans. Mannstein is not allowed to use a railway path to Helsinki (because Helsinki is a secondary supply source to the Germans) when giving supply to the Germans. Just 4 normal hexes. When Mannstein draws a railway supply path for the German units it must end in a German city and thus the extra hex for the port is enough for putting the Germans out of supply in rain or storm.

Cut from: 2.4.2 Tracing supply
Supply paths
You trace a supply path from a unit to a primary supply source.
If you are tracing a path from a secondary supply source to a primary supply source, it is a railway supply path.
If you are tracing any other supply path, it is a basic supply path.

A secondary supply source for a unit is:
ï an HQ the unit co-operates with (see 18.1); or
ï the capital city of a minor country controlled by the unit’s major power; or
ï the capital city of a major power, or a minor country, conquered by the unit’s major power, or by a major power the unit co-operates with.

Yes, that's clear. but we have always assumed in our games that all the supply paths except the link unit-HQ (or unit-secondary source) can all be railway supply path, basing on :

You trace a supply path from a unit to a primary supply source.
If you are tracing a path from a secondary supply source to a primary supply source, it is a railway supply path.

A secondary supply source of the tracing unit must be able to trace a supply path either to a primary supply source or via another secondary supply source. That other secondary source must also be able to trace a supply path either to a primary source or via another secondary source, and so on. There can be any number of secondary supply sources in this chain but it must end up at a primary supply source of the unit tracing the path.

We assume that al the secondary source - secondary source - ... - primary source links are part of the tracing of a path from the farthest secondary source to the primary source. If we are right, then all of them are railway supply paths. Only a unit - HQ or unit- secondary would not be.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

We assume that al the secondary source - secondary source - ... - primary source links are part of the tracing of a path from the farthest secondary source to the primary source. If we are right, then all of them are railway supply paths. Only a unit - HQ or unit- secondary would not be.

In my opinion that is tracing supply from a seconday supply source to a secondary supply source -...- and that is tracing any other supply path, in other words a basic supply path untill you get to the last link in the chain.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
... Mannstein wouldn't have any problem to use his 4 hexes reduced to 2 in rain, to reach the road, reaching Helsinki, and use 1 of the new 4 hexes of the line Helsinki- Königsberg. All the same, it could "feed" with supply to german units up to 2 hexes away from itself in the worst climatic case.

No because it is he who traces (Mannerheim, not Mannstein ), not Helsinki.
A railway supply path can ONLY be between a secondary and a primary.
From a secondary to a secondary, this will be a basic supply path (4 hexes).

[Joseignacio]

Wow, Orm was right, this changes totally (for me ) the concepts of the game. This way for example, if a CW HQ is in the shore 4 hexes away from Alexandria (it happened a lot of times) he cannot take the support from the railroad that is 2 hexes away (desert hexes x2 for supply) , but from the sea, but if he couldn't take from the sea (it happened some times), anyway he could reach the suppy through Suez and a naval connection but always that we don't consider Alexandria a secondary, cause else, there could not be a railway supply path between the HQ (secondary) and Alexandria (secondary). [X(]

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Wow, Orm was right, this changes totally (for me ) the concepts of the game. This way for example, if a CW HQ is in the shore 4 hexes away from Alexandria (it happened a lot of times) he cannot take the support from the railroad that is 2 hexes away (desert hexes x2 for supply) , but from the sea, but if he couldn't take from the sea (it happened some times), anyway he could reach the suppy through Suez and a naval connection but always that we don't consider Alexandria a secondary, cause else, there could not be a railway supply path between the HQ (secondary) and Alexandria (secondary). [X(]

Alexandria is not even a secondary for the CW units. It is a Egyptian city, so it is a primary for any Egyptian unit (TERRs for example). Cairo is the secondary supply source in Egypt for CW units.

[micheljq]

That can be a problem for the british, they have to trace to a primary source, like UK or South Africa or India. Sometimes early in the game the italians send a NAV Gabiano from Lybia or from Egypt near Lybian frontier in the Red Sea, combined with an italian fleet in the eastern mediterrean, it cuts the supply for the british except for the egyptian TERR.

Am I right?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: micheljq

That can be a problem for the british, they have to trace to a primary source, like UK or South Africa or India. Sometimes early in the game the italians send a NAV Gabiano from Lybia or from Egypt near Lybian frontier in the Red Sea, combined with an italian fleet in the eastern mediterrean, it cuts the supply for the british except for the egyptian TERR.

Am I right?

Exactly. [:D]
This is exactly what I'm about to attempt as the Italian next friday night, in our Vassal game where we should play J/F and M/A 40.

Cut the supply to my dear Wawell with Gabbianos based in Palestine (that I'm yet to invade) in the Red Sea section 3 (50% chances of finding), and with German He115 and a part of the Italian fleet in the Eastern Med opefully in section 4 with 60% chances of finding.

There is still a lot of chances that I do not find at all, but for the moment in my dreams I see Wawell surrender to Grazziani, and the Roma & Impero crossing the Suez Canal for some CW convoy plundering.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: micheljq

That can be a problem for the british, they have to trace to a primary source, like UK or South Africa or India. Sometimes early in the game the italians send a NAV Gabiano from Lybia or from Egypt near Lybian frontier in the Red Sea, combined with an italian fleet in the eastern mediterrean, it cuts the supply for the british except for the egyptian TERR.

Am I right?

Yes. That puts the CW units in Egypt out of supply. Except the Egypt TERR.

Depending on optional rules and wether there are eventual Allied units in the sea areas CW might be able to draw supply through the sea area even with the Italians trying to block it.

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Yes. That puts the CW units in Egypt out of supply. Except the Egypt TERR.

Depending on optional rules and wether there are eventual Allied units in the sea areas CW might be able to draw supply through the sea area even with the Italians trying to block it.

I saw 2 Commonwealth players losing Egypt that way, but they were rather inexperienced and we were playing without the territorials. If you play with TERR, Commonwealth has 2 or 3 egyptian TERR at the beginning to reinforce their defense and they cannot be put OOS that way, it makes a big difference.

As for myself if playing british, I send a long range NAV or LND with air to sea rating early in Egypt, if Italy wants to cut off my supply, I send my NAV or LND as well in Red Sea to protect oversea supply, but again we do not play with the limited oversea supply option. I will also transport a FTR early so that he can fly in Red Sea and try to abort or destroy that darn Gabiano. A CV could do the job also.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Wow, Orm was right, this changes totally (for me ) the concepts of the game. This way for example, if a CW HQ is in the shore 4 hexes away from Alexandria (it happened a lot of times) he cannot take the support from the railroad that is 2 hexes away (desert hexes x2 for supply) , but from the sea, but if he couldn't take from the sea (it happened some times), anyway he could reach the suppy through Suez and a naval connection but always that we don't consider Alexandria a secondary, cause else, there could not be a railway supply path between the HQ (secondary) and Alexandria (secondary). [X(]

This bothered me a lot when working on MWIF.

What I have done is coin the term Tertiary Supply Source. This is an HQ or captured captial that is tracing supply to a secondary supply source (or another tertiary supply source). Basically, I reserve the phrase "Secondary Supply Source" to refer only to an HQ or captured capital that is tracing to a primary supply source. A Secondary tracing to a Primary is the only time a railway supply path can be used. At all other times a basic supply path must be used, although it can contain an overseas link.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Wow, Orm was right, this changes totally (for me ) the concepts of the game. This way for example, if a CW HQ is in the shore 4 hexes away from Alexandria (it happened a lot of times) he cannot take the support from the railroad that is 2 hexes away (desert hexes x2 for supply) , but from the sea, but if he couldn't take from the sea (it happened some times), anyway he could reach the suppy through Suez and a naval connection but always that we don't consider Alexandria a secondary, cause else, there could not be a railway supply path between the HQ (secondary) and Alexandria (secondary). [X(]

This bothered me a lot when working on MWIF.

What I have done is coin the term Tertiary Supply Source. This is an HQ or captured captial that is tracing supply to a secondary supply source (or another tertiary supply source). Basically, I reserve the phrase "Secondary Supply Source" to refer only to an HQ or captured capital that is tracing to a primary supply source. A Secondary tracing to a Primary is the only time a railway supply path can be used. At all other times a basic supply path must be used, although it can contain an overseas link.

It is one of those strange situations that can happen in WiF where some units are in supply and some aren't because they must trace to different primary sources.

A good situation for playtest to affirm MWIF handles it.

Edit: Another goodie is a chain of HQs where not all units cooperate with all the HQs. The recent FAQ states the unit in question must cooperate with all the HQs to trace a supply path whereas a common prior interpretation was you were good as long as the HQ you traced to next was one the tracing HQ could cooperate with. I ran into this in a game where the Axis was driving overland from Turkey towards Suez with German and Italian units and IIRC the chain included both the Finnish and the Turk HQs along with a German and Italian HQ. With the FAQ, nobody was in supply unless I could configure a supply line that left out either the Finn or Turk HQ and even then, that only put the German units in supply.

[brian brian]

this idea of a German unit two hexes from the Mannerheim HQ in the rain being out of supply due to the overseas 'hex' is quite different than how I have always played. the supply rules go on to mention 'calculating the length of each path', which is how we play it. The German unit traces a basic supply path to Mannerheim. In the rain this is two hexes maximum. Then Mannerheim traces a railway path back to a primary source for the German units; this can have an unlimited number of road/railway hexes as well as another set of four non-rail hexes (modified by weather).

to play that the rain limits a unit using a secondary source must be adjacent to the secondary source to trace overseas is to play that you only get one supply path, combining a basic and a railway path with only one four hex limit. has this ever been clarified in the FAQ?

we have at least long got it right that every link in a chain must all be cooperating, making supply for Italian units going across the Black Sea rather tricky at times.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

this idea of a German unit two hexes from the Mannerheim HQ in the rain being out of supply due to the overseas 'hex' is quite different than how I have always played. the supply rules go on to mention 'calculating the length of each path', which is how we play it. The German unit traces a basic supply path to Mannerheim. In the rain this is two hexes maximum. Then Mannerheim traces a railway path back to a primary source for the German units; this can have an unlimited number of road/railway hexes as well as another set of four non-rail hexes (modified by weather).

The last sentence quoted is the key one. In rain a German unit could be up to two hexes away from Mannerheim. Let's say it is stacked with a Finn. Now if Mannerheim is two hexes from a road/railroad, then for the German unit to trace, it counts two to Mannerheim (valid basic path), but then the RR path from Mannerheim to a primary source for that German unit is 3 hexes (two to the road/RR and one more across the sea to say, Stettin). Ergo the German unit is OOS, but the Finn it is stacked with is in supply.

[brian brian]

ahh, but what if Mannerheim traces 2 hexes overland to the road to Helsinki, also a secondary supply source for German units? There another path can start, the way we play, and that would get it done with the one-hex overseas requirement for the German unit.