WaW Revised Barthheart vs Explorer – Western Allies

[explorer2]

Turn 28b September 26 1941[center][/center]

London:
No action. Just slamming on the research. I think it’s quite too late though. No chance of us giving Soviet Union relief in time to save them.

Tobruk:
He abandoned Tobruk. We’re closing in on his retreat.

[explorer2]

Turn 28b September 26 1941

Moscow
Western forts now occupied by Germany, with one attack already into Moscow itself.
Southern fort in tatters, token resistance left.
He’s trying to move in place to cut off Moscow from Leningrad. Not enough recon to see how big that force is.
Outer defensed of Leningrad destroyed. Leningrad proper and its adjacent forts are all that are left.
Leningrad & Moscow highly likely to fall next month (October). IF winter comes in November, we’ll tap our winter reserves (new to WaW Revised) and maybe stand a chance at giving serious resistance for awhile longer.

[explorer2]

Turn 28b September 26 1941

Chungking

Mao’s HQ was nearly surrounded, but he did not evaporate. Highly unusual that a unit with mostly staff could withstand such a strong assault. Gotta love/hate that randomness.
Not much left of a defensive position now. With all the crowding penalties, no matter how many new conscripts we draft, they’ll probably just die due to crowding and no XP
In WaW Revised current version (this game is using version d) once Sian is captured, a greater number of partisans appear. We could sure use them now.

[explorer2]

Turn 28b September 26 1941

What sad shape we are in. But Chungking should make it until November.

[explorer2]

T29b October 24, 1941: Moscow Falls, Leningrad Bawls

London
No sub activity. Switching from producing tech to producing Fighter III’s I can build because of the tech.

Tobruk
Navy has to go into port to re-supply. Montie cleans up Tobruk/Behghazi area and looks towards the West and Tripoli.

Gorki
All that’s left of our glorious defensive line of Moscow is the Northern and Eastern forts. South and West controlled by Germany, who made a thrust into Moscow itself and succeeded. Because we were able to counter attack from 4 sides (having to use staff and consrcipts to do so) we were able to kick him out, but he’s sure to re-enter next month unless we get a blessed winter.

Leningrad
Though the city did not fall, our staff and supply did. They were pushed back over the river, all staff but 1 lonely holdout died, but of course he, and the supply he’s carrying are totally isolated from Leningrad now. Out of supply & surrounded, Leningrad should be easy pickings.

[explorer2]

T29b October 24, 1941: Moscow Falls, Leningrad Bawls

Chungking
We can hear the Japanese boots just one hex distant from both the East and the North. All our seasoned troops have been killed. Nothing much left but boys with knives, pitchforks, and a few rifles. Only nature could stop the Japanese now!

[explorer2]

[center]Turn 30b November 21 1941 Blessed Winter![/center]

Game Note: Barthheart and I have agreed that in this “Test game” there is not much more to be learned from continuing with the West/China/Japan turns. He believes it would be nearly impossible for GE to invade UK. China will fall in another turn or 2, despite winter. I’ve changed the Japanese victory conditions in the newer version so that you don’t have to do the conquest of Calcutta & Sydney, so Japan’s continuation is really moot. So we will at this point only be taking the turns for Germany and Soviet Union, since that one, according to him, still hangs in the balance.

Moscow:
Our lines are “kind of” holding. We re-established contact with Leningrad just to have it interdicted again. He’s making slow progress on the north of Moscow and moving to cut off the Moscow-Leningrad RR. He’s moving towards the rail between Stalingrad and Kazan, which will be disastrous if he’s successful. Partisan activity is far more than historically accurate, but I’ll take all the help I can get. I wish I could see how much of his supply our partisans have managed to cut off.

[explorer2]

GE Advances

[explorer2]

German Advance in Crimea

[explorer2]

Moscow Lives!

[jjdenver]

Hm - it seems that historically it wasn't really feasible or possible for Germany to literally conquer the USSR. They could have been crippled, and the Germans might have gained more ground but given the immense population, size, and defensive resistance (both frontline and partisan) of the USSR it doesn't seem that it should be possible for Germany to literally conquer them. However it looks like Barth might do that to you. I'm curious how the next 12 months play out. It seems the Germans will be hard to halt in '42 and all might be lost.

[explorer2]

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

Hm - it seems that historically it wasn't really feasible or possible for Germany to literally conquer the USSR. They could have been crippled, and the Germans might have gained more ground but given the immense population, size, and defensive resistance (both frontline and partisan) of the USSR it doesn't seem that it should be possible for Germany to literally conquer them. However it looks like Barth might do that to you. I'm curious how the next 12 months play out. It seems the Germans will be hard to halt in '42 and all might be lost.

I certainly agree that GE will most likely totally conquer SU in this game.
I'm not however convinced that that was not historically "plausible"
Yes, enormous population and enormous land mass, but there was deep resentment towards Stalin as well. I was reading an account recently about how even in 1944 a third to 40% of SU troops would regularly desert (that's why they kept some crack/loyal troops off the front line to shoot deserters)
From what I've read, had Hitler stuck to his plan to cut off the Caucasus (sp?) oil, all those Soviet tanks would have been useless, and had he actually conquered the national pride centers like Leningrad and Moscow, it could have been a very different situation.

All these points are very arguable, of course.
It is also very arguable that in this game, GE is too strong or SU too weak. I think more playtesting is needed.
I'm also finding that keeping a balance between historically plausible and fun gaming where all major sides have a reasonably equal chance at winning to be quite challenging.

In new version, hopefully coming out in the next day or so, I'm changing GE victory conditions.

More soon.

[jjdenver]

Ok. I guess whether Germany could have conquered USSR is argu-able. It just seems that despite their many successes no matter how far they went in USSR there was always a dogged, exhausting, tough Soviet defense to face with endless waves of soldiers and artillery to fight. I remember reading this book called "Black March" and another called I think "Forgotten Soldier" that both talked about the difficulty of pacifying such a huge country and population. When we talk about Hitler continuing his drive into the Caucasus this has to be considered in light of the overall strategic situation. Germany had committed its reserves into the drive in the south while the USSR had an almost overwhelming strategic reserve built up north and east of Stalingrad and around Moskva just waiting for a German offensive around Moskva or a counterattack against Germany. Germany's gains toward Moskva and the Caucasus were really just the calm before the coming Red Storm. Once the Soviets unleashed a portion of their hoarded reserves the Germans were overwhelmed and the pitiful reserves they could muster to counterattack were inadequate compared to the vast Soviet formations that could be drawn from.

Anyway, I guess Germany does not have to completely conquer any country other than France (and Poland) to win a victory in game terms and this is what I was trying to highlight. If Germany can just hold on past their historical date it should probably be considered a minor German victory and holding for example Rome or Paris into 1945 would be a big accomplishment and maybe mean a higher victory level.

But in this scenario it seems that the question is not even whether Germany can last through 1945 but whether they can conquer all of Europe and the west half of Asia completely - which given Germany's historical resources seems like a stretch.

These are just my opinions though and you are in the end the one doing great work on designing and modifying this scenario so three cheers to you my friend.

[explorer2]

Greatly appreciate your comments jjdenver-

I"m currently reading a book by Richard Overy Why the Allies Won" and from the parts I've read, he tries to show economically the SU increased output from Siberia/Ural area in mid to late 1942 & that was a huge hinge. Of course there are many many many other factors, and he deals with these as well. This corresponds kind of with the Battle of Stalingrad, which other things I"ve read say was "the turning point" The debate of course will continue forever.

I definitely agree that major victory, minor victory, etc... is a great concept, which is why I inserted the point system based on VPs + power points killed, so you can sort of determine your own victory conditions.

Even so it seems people want a more definitive goal, set of conditions, etc..
So here's what I'm planning on doing for new GE Total victory conditions:

THey will have to control (x) amount of victory points for 24 total turns (not consecutively). This number will be the number of VP's of all of Europe to Omsk except UK & neutrals. Of course, if they get UK vp's, or some NAfrica ones, this will give them a buffer for when there's a counter attack.

You seem to think holding just Western Europe for say 36 turns (42-44?) would be adequate. I think, given the current set up of the game OOB, production, etc.. that that would be too easy.

What do you think? Comments welcomed. (though I need to get back to playtesting balance etc. for a while)

[jjdenver]

Hm interesting idea. I guess that rather than measuring a high water mark I'd favor holding specific objectives at a set date.

For example in another game that I PBEM (Commander Europe At War) here are the victory conditions. I think they work very well.

Victory conditions counted after the first turn of May 1945:
· Ultimate Axis victory: Axis control of 4 or more capitals (London, Washington, Paris,
Moscow, Rome, Berlin)
· Strategic Axis victory: Axis control of 3 capitals
· Major Axis victory: Axis control of 2 capitals
· Minor Axis victory: Axis control of 1 capital
· Draw: Axis lost their final capital in May 1945
· Minor Allied victory: Axis lost their final capital in March-April 1945
· Major Allied victory: Axis lost their final capital January-February 1945
· Strategic Allied victory: Axis lost their final capital in July-December 1944
· Ultimate Allied victory: Axis lost their final capital before July 1944

If the Germans are able to cripple the USSR for example by taking and holding Moskva into 1943 then they have a much better chance of holding the necessary objects for a strategic victory in May 45 (for example Rome, Paris, Berlin).

[explorer2]

[center]Turn 31b December 18 1941 The Winter of the German’s Death[/center]

Moscow:
Heavy SU partisan activity has cut off ALL GE forces except th Finns from reinforcements.

Starting Positions:

[explorer2]

The Finns, though in supply, made an attack on Leningrad. After pounding it with lots of artillery, they were still unable to succeed. The First GE Winter in SU 75% attack penalty did them in. They won’t have the strength to launch another winter assault.

[explorer2]

The only GE forces that have any supply coming to them now are
a) those to the south of Moscow on the road to Kiev. To the West of Kiev, all roads are now in Soviet Partisan hands or bridges blown.
b) those in the Caucasus that are getting their supply from occupied Maikop.

All other GE forces are getting no supply at all, and they’ve got at least 2 more turns of winter and at worse 4 more turns. Since they still have full defensive values, SU will not be able to kill them because SU has only fresh units with almost no XP. But by February, with higher XP, more reinforcements, and full supply, and GE supply should all be very minimal, SU will be able to strike back and inflict VERY heavy casualties.

Picture is ugly I know, but the yellow highlights how he's totally cut off from Germany proper, with only Kiev left to give any supply at all, and Kiev I'm quickly surrounding.

[explorer2]

But alas, fair reader, my glorious opponent has announced that we have learned all we can from this test game, and I agree. So this will be our last turn and final installment, other than discussion of how it went.

This Soviet winter was incredibly NOT fair to the Germans. Russian partisan activity was set WAY too high. Historically GE did not have their supply maliciously cut off, they just didn’t plan adequately to get their supply to the front. So SU partisan activity will be GREATLY toned down in all future versions.

Had the excess partisan activity not occurred, I think the defeat of Leningrad and Moscow was still in question. Barthheart said that he was already strugggling a lot with having enough supply, even before winter.. He may well have had just enough to take Moscow and Leningrad, then cut off Siberian supply from getting to the south, thereby defeating SU, OR he may have JUST run out of gas, and our fair cities hung on, giving them just enough time to season some of the reinforcements coming their way and make it a whole new epochal struggle. Who knows?

Either way, it’s been great fun.
This game was played with version D, and many improvements have already been made.
At the time of this post, version L should be posted by May 5, maybe even the 4th.

I’ll continue to work on fine tuning everything to get the game both “historically plausible” while still giving a fair shot for everyone (except China of course) to win.

[Barthheart]

ORIGINAL: explorer2

The only GE forces that have any supply coming to them now are
a) those to the south of Moscow on the road to Kiev. To the West of Kiev, all roads are now in Soviet Partisan hands or bridges blown.
b) those in the Caucasus that are getting their supply from occupied Maikop.
...

Great AAR explorer2 and a great game. I have only one comment and it's on this last posting. I was getting NO supplies from Kiev or Maikop because in this version we still had teh bug of German's getting nothing from captured Russian cities.... so it worse than you thought! [:@]

Next time I'm spending the summer of '42 in Moscow....[;)].... or maybe London....