Sorry, but this is wrong

[YankeeAirRat]

ORIGINAL: rich12545

ORIGINAL: USS America

ORIGINAL: rich12545

When a company sells a game it's expected it will be supported.

I'm sorry, but you have started this entire thread based on a half-truth. You left off the rest of the sentence, "for a time." Matrix has supported the two games packaged in this release very well for several years. Matrix does a fantastic job supporting their games, far superior to almost every other software company.

[

HAHA. Far superior to almost every other software company? If I had a dollar for every forum I've read something similar I'd be rich. (slight exaggeration)

If MG simply stopped supporting Harpoon that would be one thing. But they're not. They're still making patches. If they're still making patches then we should get them. We shouldn't have to pay $35 for future patches to the game. I've never seen that anywhere. For example, Battlefront just came out with a new addon for Shock Force. It included the new patch. Now, Shock Force has been out at least as long as Harpoon CE. I bought the addon. BUT if I hadn't I would have gotten the patch for the base game (for free) and other addons anyway. Battlefront might come out with more patches for the game. Everybody, whether or not they bought any addons, will get the patch (for free). That's the way to do business. You don't charge for future patches. I agree MG gives good service generally. But not this time. So, USS America, don't give me crap about this time.

See EA and John Madden. Since 1988 gamers have been buying patches and add-ons to this game religiously. What is even funnier (or worst) is some of the patches and database tweaks that they have done makes anything the almost constant in-fighting tween 'Pooner's and publishers look like arguments over house rules for Monopoly.

[noguaranteeofsanity]

ORIGINAL: rich12545

If MG simply stopped supporting Harpoon that would be one thing. But they're not. They're still making patches. If they're still making patches then we should get them. We shouldn't have to pay $35 for future patches to the game. I've never seen that anywhere. For example, Battlefront just came out with a new addon for Shock Force. It included the new patch. Now, Shock Force has been out at least as long as Harpoon CE. I bought the addon. BUT if I hadn't I would have gotten the patch for the base game (for free) and other addons anyway. Battlefront might come out with more patches for the game. Everybody, whether or not they bought any addons, will get the patch (for free). That's the way to do business. You don't charge for future patches. I agree MG gives good service generally. But not this time. So, USS America, don't give me crap about this time.

Consider what you have just explained about Battlefront and Shock Force. How do you think Battlefront continue to pay the costs associated with continuing to update the game? By releasing an addon to produce additional income, that would cover the costs. Which is very similar to what Matrix have done, by bundling HCE and ANW, along with other versions of the game, offered at a discount to existing users.

You have to realise the financial realities that face Matrix and that they cannot simply continue to support Harpoon without generating any additional income. The alternative is no patches, no updates and development stops. I'd rather purchase the ultimate edition and see the development of Harpoon continue, than see it simply stop altogether.

ORIGINAL: rich12545

I just checked. HCE was released exactly three years ago. Real frankly, in this kind of market, that's way too soon to stop supporting a game.

I doubt you will find many games, especially those that cost a lot more than Harpoon with much larger budgets and published by much larger companies such as EA or Activision, that are updated even 1 year after their release. This is even when they usually only publish titles that are guaranteed to have sales in the vicinity of half a million units, yet most have already moved on after a few months and assigned staff to other projects. If you think Matrix could afford to have a programmer working on Harpoon for three years or even indefinitely, with sales figures much lower than that in comparison and without any additional income, you really have no understanding of the reality of the situation and I suggest you remember what Erik Rutins said earlier.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Customers regularly confuse what's possible in terms of pricing and development on mainstream computer games with huge markets and economies of scale that we don't have. Niche markets work differently. When you have a game that has a limited market and is developed with limited funding and a small team (in many cases, just one programmer), it makes a big difference in terms of what you can actually do in a year or two development-wise and how much the game has to cost in order to make it possible for even a single programmer to make a living working on the game full-time.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: rich12545
For example, Battlefront just came out with a new addon for Shock Force. It included the new patch. Now, Shock Force has been out at least as long as Harpoon CE. I bought the addon. BUT if I hadn't I would have gotten the patch for the base game (for free) and other addons anyway. Battlefront might come out with more patches for the game. Everybody, whether or not they bought any addons, will get the patch (for free). That's the way to do business. You don't charge for future patches.

Reality check : Battlefront is the company that *charges* $5 for the Vista patch for CMBB, a game they're still selling and actively advertizing for - see this month's PC4War magazine.

How's that for "support" ?

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[rich12545]

First, the madden game is a joke and everybody knows it. Second, sports sims are a different genre and come out with a new one every year. I have ootp and have bought four or five. That's how they work.

[rich12545]

ORIGINAL: noguaranteeofsanity

ORIGINAL: rich12545

If MG simply stopped supporting Harpoon that would be one thing. But they're not. They're still making patches. If they're still making patches then we should get them. We shouldn't have to pay $35 for future patches to the game. I've never seen that anywhere. For example, Battlefront just came out with a new addon for Shock Force. It included the new patch. Now, Shock Force has been out at least as long as Harpoon CE. I bought the addon. BUT if I hadn't I would have gotten the patch for the base game (for free) and other addons anyway. Battlefront might come out with more patches for the game. Everybody, whether or not they bought any addons, will get the patch (for free). That's the way to do business. You don't charge for future patches. I agree MG gives good service generally. But not this time. So, USS America, don't give me crap about this time.

Consider what you have just explained about Battlefront and Shock Force. How do you think Battlefront continue to pay the costs associated with continuing to update the game? By releasing an addon to produce additional income, that would cover the costs. Which is very similar to what Matrix have done, by bundling HCE and ANW, along with other versions of the game, offered at a discount to existing users.

You have to realise the financial realities that face Matrix and that they cannot simply continue to support Harpoon without generating any additional income. The alternative is no patches, no updates and development stops. I'd rather purchase the ultimate edition and see the development of Harpoon continue, than see it simply stop altogether.

ORIGINAL: rich12545

I just checked. HCE was released exactly three years ago. Real frankly, in this kind of market, that's way too soon to stop supporting a game.

I doubt you will find many games, especially those that cost a lot more than Harpoon with much larger budgets and published by much larger companies such as EA or Activision, that are updated even 1 year after their release. This is even when they usually only publish titles that are guaranteed to have sales in the vicinity of half a million units, yet most have already moved on after a few months and assigned staff to other projects. If you think Matrix could afford to have a programmer working on Harpoon for three years or even indefinitely, with sales figures much lower than that in comparison and without any additional income, you really have no understanding of the reality of the situation and I suggest you remember what Erik Rutins said earlier.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Customers regularly confuse what's possible in terms of pricing and development on mainstream computer games with huge markets and economies of scale that we don't have. Niche markets work differently. When you have a game that has a limited market and is developed with limited funding and a small team (in many cases, just one programmer), it makes a big difference in terms of what you can actually do in a year or two development-wise and how much the game has to cost in order to make it possible for even a single programmer to make a living working on the game full-time.

Re Battlefront and Shock Force, you just proved my point.

Matrix repackaged Harpoon and added all those old games. This should get them a lot more sales. However they should not force owners to buy this repackage just to get future patches. Battlefront doesn't force owners to buy addons in order to get future patches. MG should simply give those patches for free and not charge for them.

When you talk about larger companies like EA or Activision, you're comparing apples to oranges. MG is a smaller niche company and their business plan should be different than those larger companies. It should be geared more toward giving good service and catering to customers because they depend a lot on repeat business. And generally they do. Just not in this case.

[rich12545]

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

ORIGINAL: rich12545
For example, Battlefront just came out with a new addon for Shock Force. It included the new patch. Now, Shock Force has been out at least as long as Harpoon CE. I bought the addon. BUT if I hadn't I would have gotten the patch for the base game (for free) and other addons anyway. Battlefront might come out with more patches for the game. Everybody, whether or not they bought any addons, will get the patch (for free). That's the way to do business. You don't charge for future patches.

Reality check : Battlefront is the company that *charges* $5 for the Vista patch for CMBB, a game they're still selling and actively advertizing for - see this month's PC4War magazine.

How's that for "support" ?

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

What reality check? My understanding is that patch was developed by a third party and Battlefront is simply marketing it for that person/company. Maybe that person should have given it away as a mod but it's not Battlefront's fault. BF had stopped supporting the CMx1 games. As I said earlier I have no problem with a company that does that. Those games are now about 10 years old. However, if BF had continued support and if they had developed that patch, I believe they would have given it for free.

MG is continuing to make patches and they should be given away. However, I wouldn't have so much of a problem with this if, when the patch was made, MG explained the benefits and charged $5 to previous owners. Forcing people to spend $35 for Ultimate just to get a few patches that we know nothing about is wrong.

[Erik Rutins]

Rich, et. al.,

Earlier we "agreed to disagree". I think this is the best policy at this point rather than continuing to beat this dead horse, especially since we are in disagreement on some very fundamental points. Your point of view has been heard, I think we should all just move on to other point now.

Regards,

- Erik

[Magpius]

I'm not sure if I understand the whole point of this thread.
(but I'll chime in with my opinion anyway...[:D])
I bought Harpoon by 360, for my Win 95 machine back whenever...(still have the box).
Over the years thought about getting back into the game, when seeing how dedicated and robust the community kept it alive.
The decision by Matrix et.al. to bring out the product in all it's variations seemed a good idea, to me at least, as it now means, I don't need to dither as to which version to get.
If my and others' recent purchase ensures a least a few more iterations (updates), of this classic, great. I assume such development will benefit newcomers and existing users alike.
I like the "old" look of the game, (ANW).  A robust game play and a.i., for me, will always be more important than the latest 'pixel candy'.

So where or why is their such hostility on this thread? If you already own this game, new purchasers that breath life into the threads should be welcomed.
Is anyone forcing you to buy ultimate? and I may be wrong on this point, but has it been said anywhere that existing owners won't have access to any upgrades, if they don't buy in?

Thanks for reading.
A

[TonyAAA]

ORIGINAL: Agent S

...

So where or why is their such hostility on this thread? If you already own this game, new purchasers that breath life into the threads should be welcomed.
Is anyone forcing you to buy ultimate? and I may be wrong on this point, but has it been said anywhere that existing owners won't have access to any upgrades, if they don't buy in?

Thanks for reading.
A

Yes, Matrix's previous Harpoon games will no longer be supported after this next round of patches.

If you own them and want more support after that, you have to buy them again as Harpoon Ultimate.

I've no problem with (as Erik stated in another thread) being asked for $35 every 3-4 years.

However, I have a huge issue with spending ~$100 on Matrix's Harpoons in 2008, then being told I must spend more if I want support past 2010.

[bretg80]

Game developers have a right to republish and resell their products. We have a right to evaluate the changes and if we don't see value then we won't buy the updates. The diatribe here is interesting, but in the end, if you like the game buy it, if you don't think it's worth the money then don't. Telling Matrix they shouldn't repackage and sell software is not right. They have a right to make money. If you want to vent, then point out the deficiencies, ask for more features and either buy the game, wait for a while and buy it, or look for a different product.

From my point of view, I wanted Harpoon 4. Since they didn't make Harpoon 4, I'm on the sidelines until someone makes it.

As for supporting previous releases, let's be honest, everything in this world eventually ages and is no longer supported. I'm surprised we get the support we do from Matrix on some games. We should all be happy that they support their games as well as they do. Nothing is bug free at release, but developers have to feed their families and indefinite free support just isn't economical for anyone.

Feed a game developer. Everyone is hurting these days.

[rich12545]

Yep, you and I did agree to disagree and I stand by that. I was simply responding to posts made by others.

[TonyE]

<broken record>All versions of Harpoon Classic (including Commander's Edition) have been, are, and will continue to be supported at harpgamer.com</broken record>

We may not be able to release unauthorized patches but we do provide every other means of support.

[Magpius]

Matrix's previous Harpoon games will no longer be supported after this next round of patches. -Tony_A

Sorry Tony_A, where are you sourcing this information?

All versions of Harpoon Classic (including Commander's Edition) have been, are, and will continue to be supported at harpgamer.com Tony E.

The latter seems rather definitive.

[TonyAAA]

ORIGINAL: Agent S


Sorry Tony_A, where are you sourcing this information?

Read the 2nd post in the "Harpoon: Ultimate Edition and Our Philosophy " FAQ/Sticky.

Here:

tm.asp?m=2614058

Specifically: "2. These will be the final free updates for HCE and H3ANW, future updates will be based on the Ultimate Edition releases only."

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

I don't give a rat's arse about a lot of DOS versions either.

Actually, I think I need to eat some of the proverbial (or indeed not so proverbial!) crow in relation to that. I've actually had quite some fun trawling through the DOS versions, not for serious play but just to see the games evolve. The originals are actually hugely impressive products for their time in all aspects; I wish I had discovered them many years earlier than I did.

[jomni]

[shauny1987]

Personally I am far from well off, but I'm willing to pay a good buck for a good game. I think the key point here is that the devs gave 4 years FREE support and update for
Harpoon. Given that this is their job and not a hobby, that is quite generous. Scarcely do hobbiests have the funds and or collective experience to make such a quality product.

Also the devs have worked hard to keep updating and continuing the 'Harpoon' line of games, its only fair that now and then we pay out the dividends of our continued enjoyment to the creators.

Yes it would be nice if all games were free, but this is the real world and in the real world everyone needs an income, even developers

*and remember, everyone who bought the previous games gets a big discount. Fair enough!

Shaun.

[rich12545]

ORIGINAL: TonyE

<broken record>All versions of Harpoon Classic (including Commander's Edition) have been, are, and will continue to be supported at harpgamer.com</broken record>

We may not be able to release unauthorized patches but we do provide every other means of support.

Your continued support at harpgamer is welcome and appreciated.

But we're talking about the patches. And since you will be the one making them, why can't you simply put it out as a zip? I mean, other than some mickey mouse agreement with matrix?

[rich12545]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

ORIGINAL: Hertston

I don't give a rat's arse about a lot of DOS versions either.

Actually, I think I need to eat some of the proverbial (or indeed not so proverbial!) crow in relation to that. I've actually had quite some fun trawling through the DOS versions, not for serious play but just to see the games evolve. The originals are actually hugely impressive products for their time in all aspects; I wish I had discovered them many years earlier than I did.

They were excellent at the time. I got Harpoon when it first came out 20 years ago. Had an Apple 2gs and got a pc emulator to be able to play it and one other, Empire Wargame of the Century. Then I bought Harpoon for windows and then Harpoon 97. All very good back then. But I have zero desire to even look at them now any more than I want to play the original Empire.

[rich12545]

ORIGINAL: shauny1987

Personally I am far from well off, but I'm willing to pay a good buck for a good game. I think the key point here is that the devs gave 4 years FREE support and update for
Harpoon. Given that this is their job and not a hobby, that is quite generous. Scarcely do hobbiests have the funds and or collective experience to make such a quality product.

Also the devs have worked hard to keep updating and continuing the 'Harpoon' line of games, its only fair that now and then we pay out the dividends of our continued enjoyment to the creators.

Yes it would be nice if all games were free, but this is the real world and in the real world everyone needs an income, even developers

*and remember, everyone who bought the previous games gets a big discount. Fair enough!

Shaun.

This post is very misleading. First, HCE came out exactly three years ago not four as stated. Also, nobody is asking for a free game, just sopport on games we have already paid for. I've never seen a time limit where companies stop support a game. Some get it longer, some shorter, some devs disappear, whatever. But I've never seen a company ask for more money to keep supporting a game, and a lot of money at that. A $25 discount from $60 is not very much for someone who already bought both games. It's a pittance. If MG doesn't want to continue supporting for free, $25 per game is the only fair discount to offer.