WITE vs. WITP

[Zorch]

Tullius,

See this link for a great book about historical edited photos (including Soviet follies): http://www.amazon.com/Making-People-Dis ... 414&sr=1-1

[TulliusDetritus]

Zorch, it has to be a funny book (full of grotesque photo manipulations). Thank you.

[witpqs]

Is that Beria to Stalin's left?

[TulliusDetritus]

The guy with glasses is Molotov, the military guy is Voroshilov. Beria was the successor of Yezhov.

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Steel Panthers unfortunately doesn't like Vista 64bit.

Setup a 2nd partition with XP or even Win98SE ? It runs fine on these OSes

I have still my hands full with WITPae, also 3 or 4 other games which want to be played... among them a campaign of the old WIR (it is now 2/45 and the Axis took the whole southern USSR while the front is stalled at Moscow). I also have SPwaw still like this one.

So I probably will buy WITE in 1 year or so Or I become millionaer and don´t need to work anymore and cut down every other hobby I have, or even better make the day 48 hours god of gamers [;)]

Btw: How compares WITE to TOAW eastern front scenarios ? It seems at least the counters look simmilar ?

[morganbj]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Btw: How compares WITE to TOAW eastern front scenarios ? It seems at least the counters look simmilar ?

They are very different games. TOAW (I assume you mean the FITE scenario) just doesn't quite work. The AI is terrible, and the supply situation is very poorly modeled. FITE was a pretty good attempt at recreating the eastern front, but the TOAW engine was just not up to the task. I played it for several thousand hours, I guess, so it was fun, but it just didn't work as well as WITE.

WITE is much more faithful to the period. The movement/combat system seems to work about right, and, as someone else said, the support unit system is very imaginative. There are hard coded weather effects (like severe penalties for the Germans in the first winter), and the mud turns actually work. In FITE, depending on which flavor one plays, mud turns were modeled as "cease fires," which makes no sense at all.

So, WITE is a much, much better EF game, in my opinion. Its only shortcoming seems to be the air war system, and perhaps the fact that northern Finland is not included.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77
Btw: How compares WITE to TOAW eastern front scenarios ? It seems at least the counters look simmilar ?

There is thread in the WitE forum about this [:)]

tm.asp?m=2643789

[Canoerebel]

I've been watching the WitE forums, wishing the game well but also concerned that it has siphoned off a good number of AE players, including one in particular. As stated earlier in this thread, I think AE will prove to have longer "legs" than WitE due to the subject matter (the Pacific probably lends itself to a larger and more loyal following than does the war in Russia or any other land theater). As the OP noted, the number of users in the WitE main forum exceeds AE, roughly 2:1 I'd say, and this seems to be the case now. Nothing unusual there given the newness of WitE. However, the AE AAR sub-forum almost always has more readers than the same thread in WitE - usually about 1.5:1 or 2:1. I thought that was interesting - and indeed I'd be far more interested in reading an AE AAR than a WitE AAR.

[berto]

I continue to track the WITE and WITP:AE main forum visitor counts. Many times the ratio approaches 2:1, usually it's ~3:2, but sometimes the AE visitors equal or even exceed the WITE visitors. (This considers all times of the day and night.) A bored man's amusement.

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: berto

I continue to track the WITE and WITP:AE main forum visitor counts. Many times the ratio approaches 2:1, usually it's ~3:2, but sometimes the AE visitors equal or even exceed the WITE visitors. (This considers all times of the day and night.) A bored man's amusement.

You would make a good accountant [:)]

And WiTE is a great game. I spent many, many years studying the Eastern front.

I have simply becme addicted to all of the water, planes, ships , etc of the Pacific front.

Plus we have the island girls [:D]

[bradfordkay]

ORIGINAL: stuman

ORIGINAL: berto

I continue to track the WITE and WITP:AE main forum visitor counts. Many times the ratio approaches 2:1, usually it's ~3:2, but sometimes the AE visitors equal or even exceed the WITE visitors. (This considers all times of the day and night.) A bored man's amusement.

You would make a good accountant [:)]

And WiTE is a great game. I spent many, many years studying the Eastern front.

I have simply becme addicted to all of the water, planes, ships , etc of the Pacific front.

Plus we have the island girls [:D]

WITE does have the "Night Witches", right?

[PresterJohn001]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've been watching the WitE forums, wishing the game well but also concerned that it has siphoned off a good number of AE players, including one in particular. As stated earlier in this thread, I think AE will prove to have longer "legs" than WitE due to the subject matter (the Pacific probably lends itself to a larger and more loyal following than does the war in Russia or any other land theater). As the OP noted, the number of users in the WitE main forum exceeds AE, roughly 2:1 I'd say, and this seems to be the case now. Nothing unusual there given the newness of WitE. However, the AE AAR sub-forum almost always has more readers than the same thread in WitE - usually about 1.5:1 or 2:1. I thought that was interesting - and indeed I'd be far more interested in reading an AE AAR than a WitE AAR.

The appetite for east front wargames is pretty big, its a fascinating conflict, many parallels to the Pacific War but with one big commonally assumed difference - Germany could have won (Japan in reality could not, Germany debatable). So i'd disagree and certainly from volume of wargmaes produced and played suggest that the East Front has the larger potential fanbase.

If i wasn't commited and to the witpae games i have i'd probably give it a go

[PresterJohn001]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

A WW1 game seems indeed boring: you know you will not break your opponent's front. But in WitE, just think about Barbarossa or how the Germans were finally stuffed in Ukraine or Operation Bagration [;)] So not really an immobile mire... er more like the Soviet Steamroller [8D]

Theres an excellent WW1 board game - Paths of Glory

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/ ... s-of-glory

From GMT Games' website:
"They called it the Great War. In over four years of titanic struggle, the ancient Europe of Kings and Emperors tore itself to pieces, giving birth to our own violent modern age. The bloody battles fought in the trenches of the Western Front, the icy plains of Poland, the mountains of the Balkans, and the deserts of Arabia, shaped the world we know today. We are all orphans of the Great War.

bit more than the Somme involved

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: PresterJohn

The appetite for east front wargames is pretty big, its a fascinating conflict, many parallels to the Pacific War but with one big commonally assumed difference - Germany could have won (Japan in reality could not, Germany debatable). So i'd disagree and certainly from volume of wargmaes produced and played suggest that the East Front has the larger potential fanbase.

I would propose another reason for popularity. I wouldn't press this theory too far, and it may be more specific to Greatest Generation and Baby Boomer players. But one attraction for the Eastern Front is that both sides are "bad." One Nazi, one communist and at the will of the greatest mass murderer of the 20th C. (OK, maybe 2nd worst to Mao; figures differ.)

I plan to play the Japanese side next game in AE, but more to get full value from my purchase and to see the production system. I don't relish trying to sink ships of my navy. Similarly, I think Silent Hunter 3, with mods, is the best submarine sim ever developed, but I have trouble enjoying it as I have to play as a U-boat commander.

The Eastern Front, aside from the scope and other factors that made it the largest land conflict in world history, and likely to remain so in the future, removes the guilt. At least perhaps for some players.

[V22 Osprey]

While I see where the guilt comes from, it's not really a big deal is as this is a game. I have no problem playing as the 'bad guys' and mowing down a couple of Americans. In fact the 'bad guys' are usually the most interesting because it's usually a different style of play with new toys.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: PresterJohn

The appetite for east front wargames is pretty big, its a fascinating conflict, many parallels to the Pacific War but with one big commonally assumed difference - Germany could have won (Japan in reality could not, Germany debatable). So i'd disagree and certainly from volume of wargmaes produced and played suggest that the East Front has the larger potential fanbase.

I would propose another reason for popularity. I wouldn't press this theory too far, and it may be more specific to Greatest Generation and Baby Boomer players. But one attraction for the Eastern Front is that both sides are "bad." One Nazi, one communist and at the will of the greatest mass murderer of the 20th C. (OK, maybe 2nd worst to Mao; figures differ.)

I plan to play the Japanese side next game in AE, but more to get full value from my purchase and to see the production system. I don't relish trying to sink ships of my navy. Similarly, I think Silent Hunter 3, with mods, is the best submarine sim ever developed, but I have trouble enjoying it as I have to play as a U-boat commander.

The Eastern Front, aside from the scope and other factors that made it the largest land conflict in world history, and likely to remain so in the future, removes the guilt. At least perhaps for some players.

Agree with the fine citizen from Frostbite Falls.

Would also add the geographic customer base to be a significant factor. As a generalisation, I would suggest that the overwhelming majority of continental European plus Canadian wargamers would have very little interest in the PTO, instead focussing very much on the ETO. Whereas the interest in the two theatres from American, British and Australian wargamers would be more evenly distributed.

I would attribute this primarily to two factors; location knowledge and national participation.

Europeans would have at least a passing knowledge of most major ETO cities, how many would have prior knowledge of the location of tiny Pacific atolls or obscure jungle locations, or Chinese cities whose current names are written differently from how they appeared in 1942.

Then there is a common factor of the ETO, the Wehrmacht. The major potential wargamers customer market is based on countries which at some stage of WWII had significant combat with the Wehrmacht. A much smaller subset of that market had significant combat with Japanese forces.

A third element might well be that the PTO is a combined arms operation, with a strong focus on naval operations. Not too many continental Europeans would be interested in Mahan. Maritime operations is simply not as ingrained for them as it is for the great maritime powers of Britain and USA.

Alfred

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

While I see where the guilt comes from, it's not really a big deal is as this is a game. I have no problem playing as the 'bad guys' and mowing down a couple of Americans. In fact the 'bad guys' are usually the most interesting because it's usually a different style of play with new toys.

It's not exactly guilt. More of an unease.

I'd actually have litttle problem playing the Nazis if it were my job, or if I were still on active duty and it was a war game. But for fun? Harder. At least for me.

I'm currently reading "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich." It's an excellent book. It's an important part of history and why the world is oriented as it is today. But I wouldn't want to have a beer with Hitler.

[jomni]

ORIGINAL: stuman
Plus we have the island girls [:D]

There are lots of pretty Russian women in combat roles.

[Erkki]

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Would also add the geographic customer base to be a significant factor. As a generalisation, I would suggest that the overwhelming majority of continental European plus Canadian wargamers would have very little interest in the PTO, instead focussing very much on the ETO. Whereas the interest in the two theatres from American, British and Australian wargamers would be more evenly distributed.

I would attribute this primarily to two factors; location knowledge and national participation.

This. Compared to ETO I too have very little interest in the PTO. The complexity of WITPAE didnt turn me away, and the ground combat, to be fair, is fairly simple. At least compared to many other games around, where the naval and/or aerial warfare, instead, is the more abstracted part in the game.

However I personally have no problems to play for/as any nation. As long as the game doesnt give me points for getting rid of Jews and Slavic peoples, or I dont score for every 100,000 dead jap/german civilians. In WitPAE there is a reason other than "breaking morale" in strategic bombing, and manpower is not the only selectable target, but ie. Bombing the Reich's system of giving "terror points" for destroyed civilian targets made me uneasy. I can play it, but I dont like it. Historical in that the only way area bombing helps the player are the terror points counted in the total points instead of directly or indirectly helping the war effort, but still.

[invernomuto]

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Would also add the geographic customer base to be a significant factor. As a generalisation, I would suggest that the overwhelming majority of continental European plus Canadian wargamers would have very little interest in the PTO, instead focussing very much on the ETO. Whereas the interest in the two theatres from American, British and Australian wargamers would be more evenly distributed.

I have the same idea as yours: European are more interested in ETO while American and British in PTO.
It would be interesting a survey in WITP/AE and WITE forums asking for players' nationality.