Merchant Ships

[treespider]

For Brady's benefit...

Register of Ships received by Soviet Union as per Lend-Lease Agreement

(can't believe I took time to look for this...)

On average during the "peak" period (the final 26 months of the war) of Soviet Far East Shipments an average of 36 ships per month visited Soviet Far East ports.

I'm not certain, but my guess is, these ships are not included in the Allied total as Brady would like to suggest. On to other conspiracy theories...[8|]

[Brady]

US ships were chartered under the Soviet flag:

http://vn.vladnews.ru/Arch/2005/ISS462/News/upd13_1.HTM




American aid to the Soviet Union between 1941 and 1945 amounted to 18 million tons of materiel at an overall cost of $10 billion ($120 billion modern) and 49 percent of it went through Vladivostok, the major Pacific port of Far Eastern Russia, Tuyll reported.

Vladivostok was a valuable port for this program because Russia’s northern ports of Arkhangelsk and Murmansk were attacked by Nazi Germany and many of the lend-lease shipments were lost.

In 1942-1944 the Soviet Union chartered about 120 American ships and 50 U.S. tankers, and to protect these vessels from attack by Japan in the wake of its December 1941 strafing of Pearl Harbor, American crews sailed under the Soviet hammer and sickle flag. When lend-lease shipments arrived at Vladivostok they were stored both in port terminals and in warehouses on Portovaya and Verkhne-Portovaya streets, then they were conveyed by train along the Trans-Siberian Railroad to points west. During the war the port of Vladivostok handled four times more cargo than Murmansk and Far Eastern railroad traffic was four times greater than the rest of nation.

(from a post by Peter H, axis history forum)

[stuman]

More stuff:

In Print
Russia's Life-Saver: Lend-Lease Aid to the U.S.S.R. in World War II,
by Albert Weeks



" The ships proceeded in convoy, the Japanese were informed by the
Soviet government of the size, makeup and route of the convoy

> Was it all Russian shipping?
A typical convoy left Seattle for Vladivostok in Jan 1944.
It was composed of 46 merchantmen (all 8-10K ton ships); built by
McCormack Ship Yards that were Soviet flagged and Soviet crewed.

Six of the 46 ships were loaded with ammunitions and small arms. Four of the
46 ships were loaded with foodstuffs. Two of the 46 ships were loaded by
Dodge (presumably with trucks). One ship was loaded by Westinghouse
(presumably with communications gear).

They carried:
20,000 tons of steel provided by U.S. Steel.
3,000 truck chassis, by Ford (the Soviets also assembled U.S. trucks from
parts).
3,000 truck differentials from Thornton Tandem Co.
2,000 tractors by Allis Chalmers Co. (agricultural and military use)
1,500 automotive batteries from the Price Battery Corp.
1,000 aircraft provided by the North American Aviation Co.
612 airplanes from the Douglas Aircraft Co.
600 trucks from Mack.
500 Allison aircraft engines.
500 half-tracks from Minneapolis Moline Co.
400 airplanes from Bell Aircraft
400 electric motors from Wagner Electric Co.
400 truck chassis by GM (see Ford above)
310 tons of ball bearings from the Fafnir Company.
200 aircraft provided by the U.S. Navy
200 aircraft engines by Aeromarine
100 tractor-trailer units by GM (trucks)
70 aircraft engines by Pratt & Whitney "

There seems to be conflicting info. Some sources state that the crews operating the shipping docking in Soviet ports were always Russian, which makes sense to me. But others imply maybe some were crewed by Americans. I will keep poking around.

Not sure any of this affects our game. But interesting anyway.

You guys are slowly turning me into a ship fanatic [:)]
I am starting to accumulate a nice stack of books, articles, web sites.......

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: treespider

For Brady's benefit...

Register of Ships received by Soviet Union as per Lend-Lease Agreement

(can't believe I took time to look for this...)

On average during the "peak" period (the final 26 months of the war) of Soviet Far East Shipments an average of 36 ships per month visited Soviet Far East ports.

I'm not certain, but my guess is, these ships are not included in the Allied total as Brady would like to suggest. On to other conspiracy theories...[8|]

< Message edited by treespider -- 2/22/2011 6:03:25 AM >

First of all thx, I love this kind of stuff.

Second, since all of the ships used in the N. Pacific run to the USSR were Russian flagged, they shouldn't be in our game. I see no Russian ships floating around [:)]

[vettim89]

Stuman I think there are convoys that arrive at Vlad ala Cape Town periodically that represent this. WIthout a code change, it would be impossible to stop the USSR flagged ships from being attacked

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

Stuman I think there are convoys that arrive at Vlad ala Cape Town periodically that represent this. WIthout a code change, it would be impossible to stop the USSR flagged ships from being attacked

I did not know that.

Actually I was talking literally. That I don't think there are any " free floating " Russian ships in our game. Not that there should be.

It is interesting to think that while the the Pacific War was in full roar, hundreds of ships were plowing back and forth between the West Coast and Russia.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: stuman

More stuff:

In Print
Russia's Life-Saver: Lend-Lease Aid to the U.S.S.R. in World War II,
by Albert Weeks



" The ships proceeded in convoy, the Japanese were informed by the
Soviet government of the size, makeup and route of the convoy

> Was it all Russian shipping?
A typical convoy left Seattle for Vladivostok in Jan 1944.
It was composed of 46 merchantmen (all 8-10K ton ships); built by
McCormack Ship Yards that were Soviet flagged and Soviet crewed.

Six of the 46 ships were loaded with ammunitions and small arms. Four of the
46 ships were loaded with foodstuffs. Two of the 46 ships were loaded by
Dodge (presumably with trucks). One ship was loaded by Westinghouse
(presumably with communications gear).

They carried:
20,000 tons of steel provided by U.S. Steel.
3,000 truck chassis, by Ford (the Soviets also assembled U.S. trucks from
parts).
3,000 truck differentials from Thornton Tandem Co.
2,000 tractors by Allis Chalmers Co. (agricultural and military use)
1,500 automotive batteries from the Price Battery Corp.
1,000 aircraft provided by the North American Aviation Co.
612 airplanes from the Douglas Aircraft Co.
600 trucks from Mack.
500 Allison aircraft engines.
500 half-tracks from Minneapolis Moline Co.
400 airplanes from Bell Aircraft
400 electric motors from Wagner Electric Co.
400 truck chassis by GM (see Ford above)
310 tons of ball bearings from the Fafnir Company.
200 aircraft provided by the U.S. Navy
200 aircraft engines by Aeromarine
100 tractor-trailer units by GM (trucks)
70 aircraft engines by Pratt & Whitney "

There seems to be conflicting info. Some sources state that the crews operating the shipping docking in Soviet ports were always Russian, which makes sense to me. But others imply maybe some were crewed by Americans. I will keep poking around.

Not sure any of this affects our game. But interesting anyway.

You guys are slowly turning me into a ship fanatic [:)]
I am starting to accumulate a nice stack of books, articles, web sites.......

I have been buying like crazy and reading nothing.[&:]

[Brady]

In 1942-1944 the Soviet Union chartered about 120 American ships and 50 U.S. tankers, and to protect these vessels from attack by Japan in the wake of its December 1941 strafing of Pearl Harbor, American crews sailed under the Soviet hammer and sickle flag

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: Brady

In 1942-1944 the Soviet Union chartered about 120 American ships and 50 U.S. tankers, and to protect these vessels from attack by Japan in the wake of its December 1941 strafing of Pearl Harbor, American crews sailed under the Soviet hammer and sickle flag

It seems it was Russian flagged ships, crewed by Russians:


"As a matter of fact the Pacific shipping was carried out only by vessels under Soviet flag with Soviet crews. As it was said in the Report of the People's Commissariat of External Trade: "EXCLUSIVELY SOVIET STEAMERS" (External Policy Archives, fund 'Comrade V.M. Molotov's Secretariat', list 4, file 104, page 96). There were no convoys. The vessels sailed across the ocean one by one without close escort, although a lot of historians and officials tell about Pacific convoys in their articles and documents. "

[Brady]

It would seam our sources differ in this, though they agree their American ships. From a practile stand point it would seam &nbsp;likely the crews were American as finding and traing enough Soviet crews to man 170 ships might of not been expedient.
&nbsp;
&nbsp;I will see if I can someting to back up the claim they were American crews.

[treespider]

To what end? Point of the matter is the ships are not in the game..and that's the way it should be...unlike your implication that the US has ships in game that were on the Soviet Far East milk runs.

[Nikademus]

Here's a shot in the dark.


Been thinking this for a long time. So much effort has gone into crunching the numbers based on certain absolutes....mainly that the supply point represents a "ton" of supply of some measure....and hence we get all the calculations for shipping and air transport etc etc not to mention burning of said supply at bases and for industry.

However......a supply point is itself...an abstract. It is simotaniously everything a base needs save for "Fuel" for ships. Its a bullet....an arty shell....a bedbunk....and medical supplies...oh and SPAM! [:D]

Since supply levels and it's ready availability and ease of transport have been oft commented on.....what about the idea of taking the base calc and then reducing it on a % to account for this abstraction? I did something similar years back in my mod for air transport....reducing the "tonnage" figure that they could carry by over 50% to account for the fact that they could really only transport one type of supply at a time in any sig numbers.

A similar thing could be done for shipping and even supply usage if the % level were kept consistant based on a number to account for supply point abstract-ness.


Just a thought. It would be a massive undertaking but i always felt that it was the abstraction of supply itself, not the accuracy of any particular carrier that was the root problem.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Here's a shot in the dark.

Yes. There's two (actually 7) things happening.

There's the idea that some form of resources and oil need to be transported to Japan for processing into useable components, and then there's the other 5, which is distributing the resource and oil inputs to the end-users as supply and fuel, and providing input to the factories.

It is practically impossible to differentiate between a "point" or a "ton", or anything like that, or even determine what a "point" or a "ton" actually means. By using a "word", it allows all the whackos to ping on the "word". But the "idea" is the game premise: this is several steps up the conceptual ladder. The game works at the top couple rungs of the conceptual ladder; the "words" are just chrome.

[oldman45]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Here's a shot in the dark.

Yes. There's two (actually 7) things happening.

There's the idea that some form of resources and oil need to be transported to Japan for processing into useable components, and then there's the other 5, which is distributing the resource and oil inputs to the end-users as supply and fuel, and providing input to the factories.

It is practically impossible to differentiate between a "point" or a "ton", or anything like that, or even determine what a "point" or a "ton" actually means. By using a "word", it allows all the whackos to ping on the "word". But the "idea" is the game premise: this is several steps up the conceptual ladder. The game works at the top couple rungs of the conceptual ladder; the "words" are just chrome.

Oh fine, make it that simple [;)]

Just wondering out loud, why didn't they seperate fuel and av gas as an end product?

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Oh fine, make it that simple [;)]

Just wondering out loud, why didn't they seperate fuel and av gas as an end product?

Only Gary Grigsby knows. I would 'speculate' it was done that way for simplicities sake. The game is enough of a micromanagement nightmare as it is. (sometimes called...."Quartermaster in the Pacific")

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Here's a shot in the dark.

Yes. There's two (actually 7) things happening.

There's the idea that some form of resources and oil need to be transported to Japan for processing into useable components, and then there's the other 5, which is distributing the resource and oil inputs to the end-users as supply and fuel, and providing input to the factories.

It is practically impossible to differentiate between a "point" or a "ton", or anything like that, or even determine what a "point" or a "ton" actually means. By using a "word", it allows all the whackos to ping on the "word". But the "idea" is the game premise: this is several steps up the conceptual ladder. The game works at the top couple rungs of the conceptual ladder; the "words" are just chrome.

Maybe avoid using the "word" and instead substitute the symbol for delta or sigma?[:)]

Alfred

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Here's a shot in the dark.

Yes. There's two (actually 7) things happening.

There's the idea that some form of resources and oil need to be transported to Japan for processing into useable components, and then there's the other 5, which is distributing the resource and oil inputs to the end-users as supply and fuel, and providing input to the factories.

It is practically impossible to differentiate between a "point" or a "ton", or anything like that, or even determine what a "point" or a "ton" actually means. By using a "word", it allows all the whackos to ping on the "word". But the "idea" is the game premise: this is several steps up the conceptual ladder. The game works at the top couple rungs of the conceptual ladder; the "words" are just chrome.

Maybe avoid using the "word" and instead substitute the symbol for delta or sigma?[:)]

Alfred

Like "The artist formerly known as Prince"? -> "The concept formerly known as Supply." [:D]

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: oldman45
Just wondering out loud, why didn't they seperate fuel and av gas as an end product?

Because they should be transported on ships, and ships have small flags, and their pentacles aren't big enough to keep the evil spirits away [;)]

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Only Gary Grigsby knows. I would 'speculate' it was done that way for simplicities sake. The game is enough of a micromanagement nightmare as it is. (sometimes called...."Quartermaster in the Pacific")

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with GG, and the Word was GG. It was in the beginning with GG. All things came into being through GG, and apart from GG nothing came into being that has come into being. In GG was life, and the life was the Light of gamers. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness does not comprehend it

[vettim89]

Back to the merchant issue directly, it occured to me that there is a bit of phantom Japanese merchant shipping in the game that is used but unseen. Because HI is pooled and not physically shipped, those HI points that are generated outside of Japan are for the most part used in Japan without ever having to be loaded onto a ship. In RL, a portion of the merchant fleet wa tasked to moving the industrial output associated with those HI points to Japan