Lots of tanks, no men

[Tarhunnas]

So armament prod is different for the Germans and the Soviets? I assume that the Soviet armament production sites produce armament points, but that is perhaps a rash assumption...[;)]

Edit: No, I just checked and found that the Germans have armament production sites too. So how do these figure into it?

[ComradeP]

The difference is in the modifier for their production, otherwise armament production is identical for both sides.

Like I said, supplies (produced by heavy industry locations) are used to form armament points. Armaments production was also decreased to a rate of 50 supplies for 200 per armament factory point, per turn at 100%, otherwise apply the modifier.

[randallw]

I believe there is a production process tree in the manual; not sure if this helps to explain things or just makes it more confusing. [:)]

[molchomor]

Some thoughts.

- Will disbanding some of those automatic or manual RR repair units help my riflesquad manpower pool (or will it just increase the labor squads, then it is really no use disbanding them)?

- How about the other various SUs (road construction etc. if they can be disbanded) ?

- I also have "Luftflotte 6" in my game with 17k men that is just sitting around doing nothing (no subordinates). Is it a good idea to disband it or not you reckon?

[cookie monster]

All disbanded units manpower goes back to the manpower pool

Their devices go back to the production pool

They are completely seperate from one another until a unit is made

[ComradeP]

Some thoughts.

- Will disbanding some of those automatic or manual RR repair units help my riflesquad manpower pool (or will it just increase the labor squads, then it is really no use disbanding them)?

- How about the other various SUs (road construction etc. if they can be disbanded) ?

- I also have "Luftflotte 6" in my game with 17k men that is just sitting around doing nothing (no subordinates). Is it a good idea to disband it or not you reckon?

I'd be careful with disbanding construction units. You'll need to disband quite a few to really notice a difference in manpower, but you'll immediately notice the reduced rail repair and fort construction rate. As far as I know, the manual also specifically states that you can't add units to FBD units, so be careful when removing/disbanding those.

Depending on the year, disbanding artillery support units might be a good idea. Axis gun losses can quickly go sky high, and if the Soviets have artillery divisions they'll just zap the artillery units you bring to a battle. At the least, I'd disband the 150mm howitzer units as they have guns that can be used by regular divisions. Unfortunately the battalions with the big guns are quite small, but as their guns are also generally long-ranged so they should be a bit less fragile.

Aside from the mixed AA units with the 88's, you can probably disband AA units as well. AA doesn't do much currently and even if it would, the units are still pretty small and use equipment also used by divisions.

You can disband army air bases if you have them, and possibly some HQ's. It depends on how spread out you want the Luftwaffe to be/how often your opponent bombs your air bases.

[squatter]

ComP, do your calculations suggest, then, that basically any and all resource points captured by the Germany are essentially useless as Heavy Industry will produce at maximum regardless of what resources you do or dont capture? 

[ComradeP]

Only highly theoretically, as I don't know if there's a maximum to the amount of resources that can be stored, for example. I also don't know if the way I calculated it is entirely correct, but thus far I don't see a (mathematical) reason why it isn't.

I'd like to repeat that the real limitations to a nation's production are build limits for ground elements and armament points.

I would say it's not entirely unreasonable that the Axis can keep their economy on a semi- or full-war footing with the resources they have at the start, their actual production is still suffering from deficiencies and from the results of the Allied strategic bombing campaign.

The main thing keeping the Axis war economy alive is the initial very substantial surplus because primarily Germany only has a pretty small war production and thus low resource requirements compared to what's available to them.

For the Soviets, the theoretical production is:

236/2=118 out of 196 so a surplus of 2184 for 1941.
306/2=153 out of 196 which increases the surplus to 4506 in 1942.
365/2=182 out of 196 in 1943 for an increase in the surplus to 5234.
401/2=200 out of 196 in 1944 for a decrease of the surplus to 5026.
424/2=212 out of 196 in 1945 for a decrease of the surplus to 4402.

If we assume the Soviets lose Minsk's heavy industry and 14 resource points on average in 1941 (Krivoi Rog+Kirovograd), 36 in 1942 and 1943 (basically everything in the Ukraine) and 14 throughout most of 1944, we get:.

232/2=116 out of 182 for a surplus of 1848.
301/2=150 out of 160 for a surplus of 2388.
359/2=179 out of 160 for a surplus of 1400.
394/2=197 out of 174 for a surplus of 204.
417/2=208 out of 196 for a deficit of 264.

So provided you can survive that long, you can slightly derail the Soviet economy in the end if you capture the Ukraine in 1941/1942. For the Soviets, like for the Germans, the building up of a surplus saves them in later years when they have a shortage.

[Lrfss]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Only highly theoretically, as I don't know if there's a maximum to the amount of resources that can be stored, for example. I also don't know if the way I calculated it is entirely correct, but thus far I don't see a (mathematical) reason why it isn't.

I'd like to repeat that the real limitations to a nation's production are build limits for ground elements and armament points.

I would say it's not entirely unreasonable that the Axis can keep their economy on a semi- or full-war footing with the resources they have at the start, their actual production is still suffering from deficiencies and from the results of the Allied strategic bombing campaign.

The main thing keeping the Axis war economy alive is the initial very substantial surplus because primarily Germany only has a pretty small war production and thus low resource requirements compared to what's available to them.

For the Soviets, the theoretical production is:

236/2=118 out of 196 so a surplus of 2184 for 1941.
306/2=153 out of 196 which increases the surplus to 4506 in 1942.
365/2=182 out of 196 in 1943 for an increase in the surplus to 5234.
401/2=200 out of 196 in 1944 for a decrease of the surplus to 5026.
424/2=212 out of 196 in 1945 for a decrease of the surplus to 4402.

If we assume the Soviets lose Minsk's heavy industry and 14 resource points on average in 1941 (Krivoi Rog+Kirovograd), 36 in 1942 and 1943 (basically everything in the Ukraine) and 14 throughout most of 1944, we get:.

232/2=116 out of 182 for a surplus of 1848.
301/2=150 out of 160 for a surplus of 2388.
359/2=179 out of 160 for a surplus of 1400.
394/2=197 out of 174 for a surplus of 204.
417/2=208 out of 196 for a deficit of 264.

So provided you can survive that long, you can slightly derail the Soviet economy in the end if you capture the Ukraine in 1941/1942. For the Soviets, like for the Germans, the building up of a surplus saves them in later years when they have a shortage.

I hope there is no limit or at least a very high end limit on the amount of resources that can be stored by either side! Though I could undertstand if there were a certain amount of spoliage to a small extent that may factor in? It's also kinda depressing that no matter how well you do in the campaign you are tied to as you stated the nations production/build limits and even worse the Allied SB campaign in the West. It would be nice if there was at least a option to plug in the best known historical factors or go random unknown for different results and interest, say like the weather, etc. Oh well...

[TAIL_GUNNER]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

OK, you guys do have a point about the Wurfrahmen, it seems both the regular Wurfrahmen (the launchers placed on the ground, basically) and vehicle mounted variants are missing. I've been mostly checking the editor for mistakes, not missing equipment. I'll post about it on the tester forum.

Some other missing equipment I've noted after heavy research:

SdKfz-251/16 - flamethrower version, appears in '43 panzergrenadier formations.
SdKfz-250/9 - began replacing light armored cars in '43.
SdKfz-250/7 - 81mm equivalent to 251/2 in PzGren divs.
SdKfz-250/8 - 75mm IG equivalent to 251/9 in PzGren divs.
SdKfz-250/11 - 28mm PzB., equipped armored infantry Btls. in early 1942
PSW-204(f) - equipped 7. and 20. Panzer Division at start of Barbarossa
Cavalry Squad (-) - with no LMG, there is a late-war version, but no early war
Motorcycle MG Squad - we have Motorcycle Rifle Squads but not these
Bicycle Rifle Squad - we have every other mode of Rifle Squad transportation but these
Various captured Czech and French artillery - used in many Inf. Divisions

Also noticed Panzer IIc and early war armored cars are using the wrong main gun. Should be a KwK 30, not KwK 38.

No worries if there is no desire to add these...I realize some Panzer Divisions are almost out of slots[8D]

[Lrfss]

ORIGINAL: TAIL_GUNNER

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

OK, you guys do have a point about the Wurfrahmen, it seems both the regular Wurfrahmen (the launchers placed on the ground, basically) and vehicle mounted variants are missing. I've been mostly checking the editor for mistakes, not missing equipment. I'll post about it on the tester forum.

Some other missing equipment I've noted after heavy research:

SdKfz-251/16 - flamethrower version, appears in '43 panzergrenadier formations.
SdKfz-250/9 - began replacing light armored cars in '43.
SdKfz-250/7 - 81mm equivalent to 251/2 in PzGren divs.
SdKfz-250/8 - 75mm IG equivalent to 251/9 in PzGren divs.
SdKfz-250/11 - 28mm PzB., equipped armored infantry Btls. in early 1942
PSW-204(f) - equipped 7. and 20. Panzer Division at start of Barbarossa
Cavalry Squad (-) - with no LMG, there is a late-war version, but no early war
Motorcycle MG Squad - we have Motorcycle Rifle Squads but not these
Bicycle Rifle Squad - we have every other mode of Rifle Squad transportation but these
Various captured Czech and French artillery - used in many Inf. Divisions

Also noticed Panzer IIc and early war armored cars are using the wrong main gun. Should be a KwK 30, not KwK 38.

No worries if there is no desire to add these...I realize some Panzer Divisions are almost out of slots[8D]

Ah, good find! Of course all the communication type vehicles and units are missing though see no reason to add them either!

[TAIL_GUNNER]

ORIGINAL: Lrfss

Ah, good find! Of course all the communication type vehicles and units are missing though see no reason to add them either!

Now adding all those would definitely put the Panzer Divisions over the slot limit.....just looking at a '42 Panzer Recon Battalion I count SIX different types of command/radio vehicles[X(]

Thought about modding in Panzerbefehlswagens...but probably won't due to slot limits...

[Lrfss]

ORIGINAL: TAIL_GUNNER

ORIGINAL: Lrfss

Ah, good find! Of course all the communication type vehicles and units are missing though see no reason to add them either!

Now adding all those would definitely put the Panzer Divisions over the slot limit.....just looking at a '42 Panzer Recon Battalion I count SIX different types of command/radio vehicles[X(]

Thought about modding in Panzerbefehlswagens...but probably won't due to slot limits...

No doubt[:D] Would be cool to have all that stuff in game however, course the mess in figuring the whole "In or Out" of Command Control along with the effects and all it would likely be a slight burden on most PC's prob and for sure my brain...[X(]

I rem the good 'ole SL/ASL days of all those extra never ending rule books = 1.0 hr Gaming = 2.0 hrs Rule Reading + 1.0 hr Rule Interpetation Arguments + 1.0 hr Rule Re-Reveiwing + 1.5 hrs Historical Referances to the Situation at Hand + 1.5 hrs of Heroic Bragging or Crying In your Beer of a Horrific and Unexpected Defeat! Such as like having some crummy loser bunch of T-26's or worse taking out your 10-3 Leader Commanded SS King Tiger from the rear at point blank with the last roll of the dice being a bizarre critical hit....

[ComradeP]

SdKfz-251/16 - flamethrower version, appears in '43 panzergrenadier formations.
SdKfz-250/9 - began replacing light armored cars in '43.
SdKfz-250/7 - 81mm equivalent to 251/2 in PzGren divs.
SdKfz-250/8 - 75mm IG equivalent to 251/9 in PzGren divs.
SdKfz-250/11 - 28mm PzB., equipped armored infantry Btls. in early 1942
PSW-204(f) - equipped 7. and 20. Panzer Division at start of Barbarossa
Cavalry Squad (-) - with no LMG, there is a late-war version, but no early war
Motorcycle MG Squad - we have Motorcycle Rifle Squads but not these
Bicycle Rifle Squad - we have every other mode of Rifle Squad transportation but these
Various captured Czech and French artillery - used in many Inf. Divisions

I've been wondering about the Sd.Kfz. 250's myself, as currently only the mortar carrier's in the game. It could be that they were somehow abstracted.

The French and Czech artillery is in some cases present in the game, but not in the actual units. I agree that it would add additional detail, but it would also turn the Wehrmacht into the same complicated mess in terms of artillery that the Finnish army is and given the way the production system works, that's probably not going to work in the end. The German formations don't really get an advantage through having standardized primarily German equipment in their divisions, it seems to be mostly a matter of convenience.

I'll post the list on the tester forum, though. I can probably add a few myself as well.