Leon Degrelle

[Lrfss]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"I would like to know if forced labor is included in my German production efforts and do they increase say up to around early 1944 assuming I capture more manpower centers and like wise decrease if I lose them"

Are you being serious or sarcastic?

Of course, are you kidding or what?

Have read the impact of all this was during the war...

Not intended to be anything other than fact, the question remains!

[rchora]

The "Russian civilians" are present in the game digging forts...Supposedly doing voluntarily work, something that had a different connotation in those days and places I believe. But its not important to know if the forts are dug by patriotic civilians or penal battalions, what matters is that the game took the building of field fortification by non military personnel into account. The same applies to the forced labor in Germany. Its there in the production numbers and factories. Very well researched by the people behind this game, I should add.

From all of those "peculiarities" we know existed in the eastern front, the one I think is absent and would be both easier to model and would have the greatest impact in game is the absence of "Hiwis", some 600.000 support personnel would have a huge impact in the way Axis players would play.

[barkman44]

I guess i should make my posts in crayon for you,my statement about mein kampf was meant to be read as to be a warning of his future intentions as when churchill told stalin to read it,maybe churchill read it as a blueprint for a better world.As for glorifying Degrelle I don't see my post as doing that,even the marines hated the japanese they were fighting had a certain respect for there bravery.Now this is'nt an indictment of the game{shame i have to explain this first but its for those who have difficulty understanding what they read}but those playing as the germans in the gc are trying to see if they can make hitler victorious in the east which imo would have meant a victory in the war in europe and thus a continuation of the persecusions of the jews,gypsies and others.Are we all to be condemned for this!!!!

ORIGINAL: Reconvet

ORIGINAL: Pirx the Pilot
Well if I can give my humble opinion I guess the type of man this game attracts have more in common than not. I'm certain most of us read military history books by the score, have been playing similar games for a long time, and have some kind of military experience.

Of course those of us attracted by this kind of game have things in common. Problem with this thread is that it clearly was opened by a guy trying to start a political discussion to get a platform for his world view, and not to discuss the game. He "knows that the book author is an unrepentant nazi", yet in the same sentence he glorifies him. In another post he presents "Mein Kampf" as being a blueprint for a better world. What's next? An article published by Mengele on his "studies" in concentration camps? But of course the thread opener will question the existence of such camps...

Lock up this thread please!

[barkman44]

I am 54 yrs old and have been studing ww2 since i was 11 ever since i saw Von ryans express.Probably like many forum members i have a extensive library starting with a first edition of greens warplanes of the third reich.
I guess i should be ashamed of the fact that the enemies side dominates.I've always been facinated by the wide assortment of military vehicle and aircraft the germans fielded{probably one of the reasons they lost to many different types so few spare parts}.Also the japanese for there aircraft.But when i pick up one of these books and read a chapter i should look over at a picture of belsen or the rape of nanking and say to myself these people in this volume supported these evil regimes and feel guilty an burn the book?
Or if I play a normandy war game and successfully repulse the landings and see the loses i caused I should curse myself and destroy the disc so I don't do this repellant act again,please

[Panama]

I find it highly suspect when someone will not buy or read a book because the subject matter is not PC yet they can buy a game covering the exact same subject matter and that's ok. [:D][:D][:D]

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: Pirx the Pilot

The "Russian civilians" are present in the game digging forts...Supposedly doing voluntarily work, something that had a different connotation in those days and places I believe. But its not important to know if the forts are dug by patriotic civilians or penal battalions, what matters is that the game took the building of field fortification by non military personnel into account. The same applies to the forced labor in Germany. Its there in the production numbers and factories. Very well researched by the people behind this game, I should add.

From all of those "peculiarities" we know existed in the eastern front, the one I think is absent and would be both easier to model and would have the greatest impact in game is the absence of "Hiwis", some 600.000 support personnel would have a huge impact in the way Axis players would play.

The last thing a Penal Battalion would be doing is digging holes behind the lines. No such picnic for them! To the front and charge the minefields! If you live perhaps you will be exhonerated.

[harrmonica]

can we get back to talking about how swell Leon Degrelle was !??!

[Aditia]

ORIGINAL: harrmonica

can we get back to talking about how swell Leon Degrelle was !??!

Best post of the thread.

You recieve a +20 die modifier for irony, 2200 free internets, and a cookie

[Reconvet]

ORIGINAL: Panama
I find it highly suspect when someone will not buy or read a book because the subject matter is not PC yet they can buy a game covering the exact same subject matter and that's ok. [:D][:D][:D]

Dead wrong. Playing this game is not roleplaying WWII ideologic activities, it confronts the player with purely military decisions.

Occupation policy (apart from garrison requirements), handling of pow's etc. is not part of WitE, and only a tiny fraction of those playing it and participating in this forum are ideologically motivated to do so (thread opener definitly is a nazi fan...).

I for myself would not have invested a dime in this software if I wouldn't have had full confidence that it's as free of WWII ideology as it can get. And I also won't throw good money to authors known as unrepentant nazis or stalinists. I just don't think the few bits of solid info I might get out of such books is worth the anger and sore neck I'd experience due to shaking my head in disbelief what trash can be put on paper by disfuncional brains. My time is too precious to be wasted like this...

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: Reconvet

ORIGINAL: Panama
I find it highly suspect when someone will not buy or read a book because the subject matter is not PC yet they can buy a game covering the exact same subject matter and that's ok. [:D][:D][:D]

Dead wrong. Playing this game is not roleplaying WWII ideologic activities, it confronts the player with purely military decisions.

Occupation policy (apart from garrison requirements), handling of pow's etc. is not part of WitE, and only a tiny fraction of those playing it and participating in this forum are ideologically motivated to do so (thread opener definitly is a nazi fan...).

I for myself would not have invested a dime in this software if I wouldn't have had full confidence that it's as free of WWII ideology as it can get. And I also won't throw good money to authors known as unrepentant nazis or stalinists. I just don't think the few bits of solid info I might get out of such books is worth the anger and sore neck I'd experience due to shaking my head in disbelief what trash can be put on paper by disfuncional brains. My time is too precious to be wasted like this...

Meh...I'll save if for an opinion forum. Wasting people's time with pointless personal perfidity. Sorry got soooo off topic. [&o]

[Reconvet]

ORIGINAL: Panama
Meh...I'll save if for an opinion forum. Wasting people's time with pointless personal perfidity. Sorry got soooo off topic. [&o]

[:D] Better get back to your cartoon, buddy. [:D][:D][:D]

[barkman44]

reconvent,I was going to use a paint program to do this post in crayon so you could understand but instead will try not to use big words.
I would like to play against you as the soviets because apparently i would start out with an advantage.I surmise{sorry big word}I figure from your posts that before we play you would automatically delete the following from your oob.
1st ss,omg they were so proud of their beginings they retain the title bodyguard Adolph Hitler,can't have that.2ss hmm what was that town called...oh Oradour thats right click.3ss eckkk Eicke,theodore was'nt he a former commandandt at Dachau hmm and were'nt most of the men in this unit from concentration camp units??click, into delete heaven they go.
4thss police..naw still ss gots to go.5thss a bunch of traitors and probably holocaust deniers click.The same with the 4th nederland and 10th nordland,traitors all bye bye.
12thss I'll get to them when witw comes out,bunch of fanatical hitler worshipping punks,you just wait you'll get yours.
Let's see...commanders,won't have to face von Leeb or Manstein 'cause they supported Hitlers commissar order,bullet in the back of the head for them.
But then again we would'nt be playing at all because in playing the axis you would be role-playing for Hitler.Like it or not you are the supreme commander when playing either side.
So lets try acw..naw,won't work because if you took the souths side you'd be defending slavery and if i took the souths side you'd say i was a neo-confederate who supported slavery and secceccion.
So lets just play a good game of chess..but then again if I took the WHITE side,s**t can't win for losing.
As you can divulge{sorry}figure I don't like being called a neo-nazi by a pseudo-intellectuall{sorry look it up}
You can respond but "speak to the hand 'cause the ears ain't listening".You've said enough and I think I deserve an apology for your gross miss-interpretation{another big word sorry}of my Mein Kampf post.

[Lrfss]

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

reconvent,I was going to use a paint program to do this post in crayon so you could understand but instead will try not to use big words.
I would like to play against you as the soviets because apparently i would start out with an advantage.I surmise{sorry big word}I figure from your posts that before we play you would automatically delete the following from your oob.
1st ss,omg they were so proud of their beginings they retain the title bodyguard Adolph Hitler,can't have that.2ss hmm what was that town called...oh Oradour thats right click.3ss eckkk Eicke,theodore was'nt he a former commandandt at Dachau hmm and were'nt most of the men in this unit from concentration camp units??click, into delete heaven they go.
4thss police..naw still ss gots to go.5thss a bunch of traitors and probably holocaust deniers click.The same with the 4th nederland and 10th nordland,traitors all bye bye.
12thss I'll get to them when witw comes out,bunch of fanatical hitler worshipping punks,you just wait you'll get yours.
Let's see...commanders,won't have to face von Leeb or Manstein 'cause they supported Hitlers commissar order,bullet in the back of the head for them.
But then again we would'nt be playing at all because in playing the axis you would be role-playing for Hitler.Like it or not you are the supreme commander when playing either side.
So lets try acw..naw,won't work because if you took the souths side you'd be defending slavery and if i took the souths side you'd say i was a neo-confederate who supported slavery and secceccion.
So lets just play a good game of chess..but then again if I took the WHITE side,s**t can't win for losing.
As you can divulge{sorry}figure I don't like being called a neo-nazi by a pseudo-intellectuall{sorry look it up}
You can respond but "speak to the hand 'cause the ears ain't listening".You've said enough and I think I deserve an apology for your gross miss-interpretation{another big word sorry}of my Mein Kampf post.

OMG, no SS units, who could play such a game!?!?! [X(] Hey I would play you, however I have to have all my SS men including Uncle Leon[:D]

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

reconvent,I was going to use a paint program to do this post in crayon so you could understand but instead will try not to use big words.
I would like to play against you as the soviets because apparently i would start out with an advantage.I surmise{sorry big word}I figure from your posts that before we play you would automatically delete the following from your oob.
1st ss,omg they were so proud of their beginings they retain the title bodyguard Adolph Hitler,can't have that.2ss hmm what was that town called...oh Oradour thats right click.3ss eckkk Eicke,theodore was'nt he a former commandandt at Dachau hmm and were'nt most of the men in this unit from concentration camp units??click, into delete heaven they go.
4thss police..naw still ss gots to go.5thss a bunch of traitors and probably holocaust deniers click.The same with the 4th nederland and 10th nordland,traitors all bye bye.
12thss I'll get to them when witw comes out,bunch of fanatical hitler worshipping punks,you just wait you'll get yours.
Let's see...commanders,won't have to face von Leeb or Manstein 'cause they supported Hitlers commissar order,bullet in the back of the head for them.
But then again we would'nt be playing at all because in playing the axis you would be role-playing for Hitler.Like it or not you are the supreme commander when playing either side.
So lets try acw..naw,won't work because if you took the souths side you'd be defending slavery and if i took the souths side you'd say i was a neo-confederate who supported slavery and secceccion.
So lets just play a good game of chess..but then again if I took the WHITE side,s**t can't win for losing.
As you can divulge{sorry}figure I don't like being called a neo-nazi by a pseudo-intellectuall{sorry look it up}
You can respond but "speak to the hand 'cause the ears ain't listening".You've said enough and I think I deserve an apology for your gross miss-interpretation{another big word sorry}of my Mein Kampf post.

You are beating a dead horse. Some people don't understand that to avoid future mistakes you have to know of and understand past evils. PC people are like a doctor trying to cure a plague over the phone. Don't want to get too close, it might be catching.

[Aurelian]

Dang, just read the book already[:D]

[Steelers708]

ORIGINAL: Panama

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

reconvent,I was going to use a paint program to do this post in crayon so you could understand but instead will try not to use big words.
I would like to play against you as the soviets because apparently i would start out with an advantage.I surmise{sorry big word}I figure from your posts that before we play you would automatically delete the following from your oob.
1st ss,omg they were so proud of their beginings they retain the title bodyguard Adolph Hitler,can't have that.2ss hmm what was that town called...oh Oradour thats right click.3ss eckkk Eicke,theodore was'nt he a former commandandt at Dachau hmm and were'nt most of the men in this unit from concentration camp units??click, into delete heaven they go.
4thss police..naw still ss gots to go.5thss a bunch of traitors and probably holocaust deniers click.The same with the 4th nederland and 10th nordland,traitors all bye bye.
12thss I'll get to them when witw comes out,bunch of fanatical hitler worshipping punks,you just wait you'll get yours.
Let's see...commanders,won't have to face von Leeb or Manstein 'cause they supported Hitlers commissar order,bullet in the back of the head for them.
But then again we would'nt be playing at all because in playing the axis you would be role-playing for Hitler.Like it or not you are the supreme commander when playing either side.
So lets try acw..naw,won't work because if you took the souths side you'd be defending slavery and if i took the souths side you'd say i was a neo-confederate who supported slavery and secceccion.
So lets just play a good game of chess..but then again if I took the WHITE side,s**t can't win for losing.
As you can divulge{sorry}figure I don't like being called a neo-nazi by a pseudo-intellectuall{sorry look it up}
You can respond but "speak to the hand 'cause the ears ain't listening".You've said enough and I think I deserve an apology for your gross miss-interpretation{another big word sorry}of my Mein Kampf post.

You are beating a dead horse. Some people don't understand that to avoid future mistakes you have to know of and understand past evils. PC people are like a doctor trying to cure a plague over the phone. Don't want to get too close, it might be catching.

You're right, some people are so PC they're beyond redemption and belief. I hate to think what Reconvet must think of me, I'm a raving Neo-Nazi as not only do I own and have read Leon Degrelles book I've also read those written by, amongst others, Kurt 'Panzer' Meyer, and Otto Weidinger, but I'm also a Neo-Fascist as I have read and own Benito Mussolini's "The doctrine of Fascism".

On the other hand I'm a raving Communist as I own and have read not only Karl Marx's 'Communist Manifesto' but Chairman Mao Tse-Tung's 'Little Red Book'.

Maybe, just maybe, I'm seriously interested in history, both it's good points and it's bad, but then I can't be that sort of person as it doesn't exist in 'the world according to Reconvet'.

[Lrfss]

ORIGINAL: Steelers708

ORIGINAL: Panama

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

reconvent,I was going to use a paint program to do this post in crayon so you could understand but instead will try not to use big words.
I would like to play against you as the soviets because apparently i would start out with an advantage.I surmise{sorry big word}I figure from your posts that before we play you would automatically delete the following from your oob.
1st ss,omg they were so proud of their beginings they retain the title bodyguard Adolph Hitler,can't have that.2ss hmm what was that town called...oh Oradour thats right click.3ss eckkk Eicke,theodore was'nt he a former commandandt at Dachau hmm and were'nt most of the men in this unit from concentration camp units??click, into delete heaven they go.
4thss police..naw still ss gots to go.5thss a bunch of traitors and probably holocaust deniers click.The same with the 4th nederland and 10th nordland,traitors all bye bye.
12thss I'll get to them when witw comes out,bunch of fanatical hitler worshipping punks,you just wait you'll get yours.
Let's see...commanders,won't have to face von Leeb or Manstein 'cause they supported Hitlers commissar order,bullet in the back of the head for them.
But then again we would'nt be playing at all because in playing the axis you would be role-playing for Hitler.Like it or not you are the supreme commander when playing either side.
So lets try acw..naw,won't work because if you took the souths side you'd be defending slavery and if i took the souths side you'd say i was a neo-confederate who supported slavery and secceccion.
So lets just play a good game of chess..but then again if I took the WHITE side,s**t can't win for losing.
As you can divulge{sorry}figure I don't like being called a neo-nazi by a pseudo-intellectuall{sorry look it up}
You can respond but "speak to the hand 'cause the ears ain't listening".You've said enough and I think I deserve an apology for your gross miss-interpretation{another big word sorry}of my Mein Kampf post.

You are beating a dead horse. Some people don't understand that to avoid future mistakes you have to know of and understand past evils. PC people are like a doctor trying to cure a plague over the phone. Don't want to get too close, it might be catching.

You're right, some people are so PC they're beyond redemption and belief. I hate to think what Reconvet must think of me, I'm a raving Neo-Nazi as not only do I own and have read Leon Degrelles book I've also read those written by, amongst others, Kurt 'Panzer' Meyer, and Otto Weidinger, but I'm also a Neo-Fascist as I have read and own Benito Mussolini's "The doctrine of Fascism".On the other hand I'm a raving Communist as I own and have read not only Karl Marx's 'Communist Manifesto' but Chairman Mao Tse-Tung's 'Little Red Book'.

Maybe, just maybe, I'm seriously interested in history, both it's good points and it's bad, but then I can't be that sort of person as it doesn't exist in 'the world according to Reconvet'.

How is that book BTW? I have been thinking about picking that one up and giving it a shot...

[Lrfss]

Here's a good book that some may like by "Gerd Niepold" Battle for White Russia, The destruction of Army Group Center-June 1944" I bought this one in like 1987-88 IIRC for a reasonable price, it seems now you can't touch it for less than U.S. $250.00-350.00 range...crazy!

[Reconvet]

ORIGINAL: barkorn45
Has anyone read his book about the eastern front?I know he was an unrepentant nazi ...
... Interestingly Hitler stated that if he was to have a son he would like him to be like Degrelle!

ORIGINAL: barkorn45
... I don't like being called a neo-nazi ...

ORIGINAL: barkorn45
... You've said enough and I think I deserve an apology ...

Apology? That's hilarious. [:D] Read what you posted, there's hardly room for misinterpretation there. You just got what you deserved, buddy. You open a thread dealing with an unrepentant nazi, throw in a Hitler quote allegedly praising this guy? Come on, admit you admire both of these creatures and out yourself...


As for PC: When fans of mass murderers of whatever colour crawl out of their holes I get into combat mode. It's one thing to take the path of historical research, looking for facts and offering insights illuminating why things happened the way they did, and it's totally something else to worship mass murderers and seek a platform to pursue your ideological agenda. Whoever gives covering fire for the latter puts himself in the same dirty corner...

ORIGINAL: Steelers708
You're right, some people are so PC they're beyond redemption and belief. I hate to think what Reconvet must think of me, I'm a raving Neo-Nazi as not only do I own and have read Leon Degrelles book I've also read those written by, amongst others, Kurt 'Panzer' Meyer, and Otto Weidinger, but I'm also a Neo-Fascist as I have read and own Benito Mussolini's "The doctrine of Fascism".
On the other hand I'm a raving Communist as I own and have read not only Karl Marx's 'Communist Manifesto' but Chairman Mao Tse-Tung's 'Little Red Book'.

@Steelers708: Reading all these books might have put you in a position to recognize where shameless propaganda can lead. You defending a neo means that your lecture didn't teach you a damn thing...

[Steelers708]

ORIGINAL: Reconvet

ORIGINAL: barkorn45
Has anyone read his book about the eastern front?I know he was an unrepentant nazi ...
... Interestingly Hitler stated that if he was to have a son he would like him to be like Degrelle!

ORIGINAL: barkorn45
... I don't like being called a neo-nazi ...

ORIGINAL: barkorn45
... You've said enough and I think I deserve an apology ...

Apology? That's hilarious. [:D] Read what you posted, there's hardly room for misinterpretation there. You just got what you deserved, buddy. You open a thread dealing with an unrepentant nazi, throw in a Hitler quote allegedly praising this guy? Come on, admit you admire both of these creatures and out yourself...


As for PC: When fans of mass murderers of whatever colour crawl out of their holes I get into combat mode. It's one thing to take the path of historical research, looking for facts and offering insights illuminating why things happened the way they did, and it's totally something else to worship mass murderers and seek a platform to pursue your ideological agenda. Whoever gives covering fire for the latter puts himself in the same dirty corner...

ORIGINAL: Steelers708
You're right, some people are so PC they're beyond redemption and belief. I hate to think what Reconvet must think of me, I'm a raving Neo-Nazi as not only do I own and have read Leon Degrelles book I've also read those written by, amongst others, Kurt 'Panzer' Meyer, and Otto Weidinger, but I'm also a Neo-Fascist as I have read and own Benito Mussolini's "The doctrine of Fascism".
On the other hand I'm a raving Communist as I own and have read not only Karl Marx's 'Communist Manifesto' but Chairman Mao Tse-Tung's 'Little Red Book'.

@Steelers708: Reading all these books might have put you in a position to recognize where shameless propaganda can lead. You defending a neo means that your lecture didn't teach you a damn thing...

So let's examine Barkorn's original post.

"Has anyone read his book about the eastern front?I know he was an unrepentant nazi but like Rudel you can't discount his bravery and fighting elan."

Simple enough question, admits Degrelle was an unrepentant Nazi, but doesn't discount his personal bravery. I don't see any pro nazi sentiment there, and I wouldn't question the personal bravery of any individual (no matter which side thsy were on) who fought on the Eastern Front.

"My favorite excerpt is his story of when they had been in position for a fairly long length of time and the bucket of the well they were using came loose and fell into the well. So the got a hook and instead of pulling up the bucket the pulled up a rotting russian corpse,his matter of fact statement"We'd been drinking him for weeks"brings into stark contrast what life was like back then.

So he qoutes his favourite excerpt from the book which includes a direct quote from Degrelle. Again I fail to see where Barkorn shows any pro nazi sympathy or sentiment, the excerpt and quote from Degrelle just shows the inhuman side of the war nothing more, nothing less.

"A good read have read it 3 times"

Of course having never read it yourself you're not in a position to judge it's merits one way or the other. Taken in context it is a good read and I fail to see why anyone who reads it must by your warped thinking be a neo-nazi.

"Interestingly Hitler stated that if he was to have a son he would like him to be like Degrelle! "

Well another quote that is widely attributed to Hitler about what he is supposed to have thought about Degrelle, again I fail to see why anyone mentioning this is assumed to be a neo-nazi.


As for me, I do know where shameless propaganda can lead, but I also realise that there are PC zealots out there who have there own agenda which precludes people from finding these things out and thinking for themselves, and those who dare to contradict the PC zealots by thinking for themselves are tarred with a brush, be it neo-nazi, communist or in religous terms they are all going to hell.

I'm sorry to be blunt but why don't you just take you pissant small minded control freak attitude and crawl back under the rock you came from. Failing that you can always take a leaf out of Hitlers book, and burn any books that your PC mind deems unfit for human consumption. Pun intended.

PS I also have a book on the Boer War which mentions the concentration camps set up by the British leading to 40,000 Boer deaths and an unknown number of Native black deaths, also currently before the courts here in the UK is the case of survivors of the Mau Mau rebellion who are suing the British Goverment for compensation regarding their detention, torture and in cases death, in detention camps during the rebellion. Maybe I should consider emigrating as I wouldn't want my taxes to go to a goverment that not only could sanction, but actively oversee these events, if i was to follow your way of thinking that is.