Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+

[Peltonx]

No because he replasing 149k a turn in 43 and not 80k. Hes lost 2,000,000 men and his numbers are up from 7.1 million to 8 million.

So the production #s are about 100% higher then 80k a turn.

Pelton

[Encircled]

You take massive casulties as the Russians, every time your attack fails, you lose about 10% of your force.

That will hurt long term, especially if you have lvl 4 forts set up all the way to Berlin

[Peltonx]

Flaviusx very true, but from turn 70 to 73 there was zero fighting it was mud so the pools were next to zero.

Thats no going to effect the fact his losses were 2,000,000 and his numbers jumped by 1 million.

The men would still be in the pool right an not counted, which means when we hit mud season all them pool men will return to front and his numbers will be close to 8.3 to 8.5 million.

Which means he lost 2 mill and his army increased to 8.3 million, so still the 150k a turn stands. his number should be dropping if he was only getting 80k a turn. This is a sample of 20 turns not 3 or 4 turns.

[Flaviusx]

I'd have to drill into the numbers and see what's going on from the Soviet side. The numbers seem very high to me. He shouldn't be getting as many troops as this.

Possibly what's going on here is he topped off the Red Army in 42, and built up a huge replacement pool during the quiet period. So when he undertook offensive operations in 43 and added more units and conversions, these could draw into the accumulated pools and get big jumps in manpower.

I know from experience that by manipulating refit orders, it's possible even in 1943 for the Sovs to accumulate a huge reserve, and then dump it all once into refits in a single turn. So the Red Army could jump 500,000+ men in one turn doing this.

[Peltonx]

Yes thats what happened on turn 75ish.

Ok having said that his numbers are staying at 8 million, check out turn 80 numbers and 85.

His numbers jumped then have stayed stable even while taking 150k a turn in deaths.

[Peltonx]

Turn 80 7.8 million men and turn 91 8 million men.

So numbers are growing even with taking 150k a turn. Thats way more then 80k a turn.

I could be wrong, but there seems to be no way to wash the numbers down to 80k a turn.

His jump was on turn 75. so things were stable by turn 80.

[Peltonx]

Anyways i got to run have fun with them numbers. I keep getting the shit kicked out of me its only March of 43, heheheh How much longer can it last?

[:D]

[Peltonx]

One thing is for sure I love the game and it keeps getting better with every patch. Making things better requires some whining from time to time hehehehe

Say high to Devs for me [8D]

[M60A3TTS]

Could the variable be based on the numbers returning from the disabled pool? Last screenie showed 3.2 million Soviet. If I understand this, all replacements for a given turn are the sum total of manpower centers and returning disabled. The flow from manpower centers would be consistent, but if disabled was based on a % of casualties returning based on the turn in which they were lost, that might explain large increases. You fought a bunch of battles, generated many Soviet disabled, now the wave of disabled return on a fixed schedule. It would seem it's either that way or it's a set % of disabled return regularly. Either way with a disabled pool of over 3 million, even a 5% return rate will generate 150k. Seems the Soviets should have more dead and less disabled. At least one source I have seen had soviet total war dead between 8.8 and 10 million.

[Peltonx]

Fighting has been hvy and steady for 16 turns. Its a sample of 20 turns not a snap shot of 4 or 5

I told Hooper to pound the crap out of me in the air and ground and he is heheheh

[Flaviusx]

You do need to give ground in 43, especially in the face of a big buildup.

The Soviet is perfectly happy to slug it out on a static line over several turns and grind the German landsers to powder. I've done this myself. (Check out the 43 replay Bob and I did.) Look for the artillery divisions: if you see a lot of these piling up in a given section of the front line...run. They are not very mobile units and take some time to set up and get into play, but once there, they can demolish more or less any kind of defense the German puts up, at least with their grunts. (Dug in panzers are tougher. But even they can be bumped.)

[squatter]

Perhaps coincidentally, perhaps not, I noticed my Soviet PBEM opponent's OOB jump by around 500,000 troops in the space of a turn or two in the winter 42/43, which would also be around turn 75. I put it down to him tweaking his TOEs, but havent confirmed that.

[Arstavidios]

the soviets should have got about  110 000 men a turn through the manpower centres and around 30 000 disabled men a turn coming back.
That makes for around 140 000 to 150 000 men a turn. that seems pretty consistant.
 
To drop manpower centres to 80 000 you need to to take quite a lot of cities. and there are still the disabled men coming back.
In 1943 manpower centres production will drop a little.  Liberated centres may compensate, but they'll take some time to repair.

[Peltonx]

His attacks were from North to south 50+ a turn, so its not just a few art units. I been giving ground, basicly dropping back a hexe a turn flipping hexes ect.

The only reason my loses are so hvy is because of the 1v1 = 2v1 rule. If that was throw out it be more in line with historical.

the number are the numbers. Again this is a sample of 20 turns not one. So the number in the pool is 30k when you start and 30k turn 20 so what?

Again hes been losing 150k a turn and his numbers have increased by 1 million, We throw in the save up bump of 500k and we still have an increase of 500,000 along with 2 million dead.

Its much higher then the 80k Flaviusx says he should be getting in 43.

Arstavidios manpower production gets a nerf in 42 and again in 43 so output should only be about 80k per turn in 43. The numbers dont wash still.

[Flaviusx]

The 80k is for 1943, bear in mind. And that's just an estimate. Not sure what the exact numbers would be, but they should definitely be lower than in 1942, assuming the same numbers of manpower centers. And they'll continue to go down at the beginning of each year.

Pelton, I very strongly suspect the Sovs amassed a huge replacement pool reserve in 1942 that still hasn't been zeroed out. So to the extent he loses more than his new manpower production and disabled returns can cover, the stuff in the kitty covers the rest. And he'll continue to show higher than expected growth per turn until his kitty runs out. (Or he gets topped off. At which point any surplus accumulates in his pools.)

I wouldn't be surprised if he squirreled away a million or more men (maybe much more) during 1942 if little or no combat took place for months. You really do need to keep up the pressure on the Soviets if you want to keep their replacements from blowing up. That's one of the hidden costs of a German 1942 turtle.

[Peltonx]

If I attacked during 42 I would simply have had a more gimped army by turn 74 and would have got crushed sooner. This is the very very same issue Tarhunnas is having in his AAR vs Q-ball.

We all know if the exchange of combat is 2 dead Russians for every 1 German then the Russian is winning.

From turn 70 to 90 defending in forts Hoops lost 2 million and I lost 900,000. When I attacked during the summer the very same issue Tarhunnas is having I lost 1 man for ever 2 of his.

So on matter what he be saving up men not as many. Also my number would be much less come turn 70

Its simple math, if I attack in the summer 42 I am lossing and lose sooner in 43. If I do nothing in 42 I lose later in 43.

The killer is the dumass 1v1 = 2v1. If that gets canned then the game balance would be closer to historical.

If the German is unable to pocket Russians during the 42 summer then its a total waste of time attacking, because your lossing manpower sooner.

I took out more manpower centers then historical and more production then historical and the German army is crippled in March 43.

Thats called way out of balance.

Also Tarhunnas took out Leningrad and Moscow to Stalino and he cant do anything in 42. I know he lost more during blizzard but I lost next to nothing. the same thing will happen to him he will get steam rolled in early 43.

[Vorsteher]

Can perhaps one modify the Refit mode? The units more slowly are filled up.

[Peltonx]

Start of turn 96 or 22 turns into the Russian offensive of 1943. I have been pushed back atleast 20 hexes allong the front and 30 or so in the north. Remember I sealed of Leningrad on turn 6 and bagged everything, plus I took out a total of 70 ARM pts which is more then historical. Orel to Rostov by the end of the 41 summer offensive.

From turn 70 to 95 Hooopers manpower has increaed from 7.1 million to 8.1 million.

Russian losses the last 25 turn 2,400,000 men, Guns 38000, Tanks 12,000
German Losses the last 25 turns 1,000,000 men, Guns 34000, Tanks 3,400

Russian OOB changes +1,000,000 men, Guns +38000,Tanks +12,000
German OOB changes -370,000 men, Guns -9000, Tanks +1,000

So in 25 turns the Russians lost 2,400,000 men and yet the army over all totals are up 1,000,000 so over 3,400,000 replasements were produced in 25 turns.

That seems really high to me. In 25 turns the Russian have suffered 2.4 million loses in men and yet the over all total increased by 1 million men.

Flavius guess your wrong [:-] the manpower,guns and tank totals are still climbing at the very same rate as they were 20 turns ago. His loses are fairly steady per 5 turns I post and he is increasing in manpower,guns and tanks at a steady rate every five turns. He is basicly losing 100k a turn and his army is increasing by 50k a turn on average. not close to 80k a turn in replasements. The killer for German army is the lose of guns. Way way to many guns are lost when you are forsed to retreat, again the 1v1 = 2v1 rule craps the game out.

The German army is smashed (April 43) and even during the mud turns he is able to attack. The 1v1 = 2v1 is a pig of a rule. You can put dresses( change fort rules) and makeup( change production outputs) on the pig, but its still going to be a pig.

I am sorry to tell you guys, but putting make-up and a dress on a pig is not going to turn it into a super model [:-]


The Russian production rate, forts ect ect is good, great job [&o]


There is not way The German army should be getting rolled after doing better then historical in early 43.

You can go back to the first page of thread and check the lines and double check my numbers.

[Peltonx]

AGC

[Peltonx]

AGS