The PERFECT WAR Mod

[FatR]

I'd say - if we plan the building programs from 1930s, then why build any Aganos? Use Aobas and Furutakas with 155mm armament as the leaders of the night fighting force.

In the treaty period - for administrative and tactical convenience build four Mogamis starting with 203mm guns, as you propose. If there is enough money (which is a big if) - add two more of the same with 155mm guns, never rearm them. In this case we're going above the historcial budget for cruisers. This is somewhat compensated by not building three fairly large ships replaced with 5500 CL conversions in the same period, but not entirely. Using the same hull should help to mitigate the cost further, making building them possible.

In the post-treaty period - build four Mogami-derivatives with the same 203mm armament. Build two light cruisers meant to support the carrier force in search, AA defence and command center roles. Basically, smaller versions of Oyodos, following a more realistic doctrine (sub doctrine should be different by that time anyway). They should be big enough to carry four floatplanes. Armament should consist only of 127/50 DP guns now in development (8-12 of them), which will delay availability to 1943, at best late 1942 (see my suggestions on armament above). Hopefully this could be placed in 6500-7000 tons. So instead of seven cruisers each of which is impaired in some aspect, we'll build six more useful ones.

Instead of Shimakaze, develop a big leader/small CL with slightly reduced torpedo battery, the same speed as normal DDs, and 8 new DP guns.

As about remaining 6 5500-ton CLs - how about placing them in ports at damaged state (reflecting removal of their old armament) at the beginning, with the options for either CLAA or torpedo cruisers conversion?

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: House Stark

So, if I'm reading this correctly, the Japanese would get -1 CA and +2-3 CL compared to the real war, but they would be better ships overall (no old, weak CAs and fewer old CLs) so the cruiser fleet would still be superior to the real life IJN cruiser fleet during the war?

Battleship fleet looks good though-a few more good battleships compared to the real war, at the cost of super battleships. Seems a good war to improve Japan battleship OOB while staying reasonable.

Looking forward to when you summarize the carrier ideas into one of these posts (unless I missed it further up the thread?).

Am working on a CV proposal.

As of the end of Circle One:
The Japanese would start with 4 Myoko, 4 Takao, and 5 Takao-Kai: 13 CA. Going by RL they started with 4 Aoba, 4 Myoko, 4 Takao, and 4 converted Mogami: 16 CA.

CLs at start: 9 Old 5,500T, Yubari, 4 Aoba, and 4 Agano: 18 CL. By the end of Circle 1 IRL the Japanese had 18 as well.

[John 3rd]

Got to run errands for a bit. Toss ideas and I'll jump back in when I get home.

[FatR]

Final count by my proposal above, assuming the best case:

CAs: 4 Myoko, 4 Takao, 4 Mogami, 4 Mogami-Kai (about 2 should still be in construction at the beginning of the war) - 14 ready, 2 in construction. (Instead of 16 ready IRL, but ours are a bit better armed)

1-st class CLs: 2 Mogami, 4 Aoba - 6 ready, 0 in construction. (5 in construction IRL, but ours are significantly larger and better-armed.)

2-nd class CLs and CLAAs: 5 ready, 2 in consruction, 6 in reconstruction (18 ready IRL, quality is roughly the same on December of 1941, but newly constructed and reconstructed ships are much superior).

3-rd class CLs (trainers): 3 ready. (3 ready IRL).

As you can see, the first cruiser line is considerably more numerous and packs a bigger punch at the beginning of hostilities.
This is bought at the expense of second-line cruisers. Destroyer flotillas are quite short on flagships from RL standpoint, although Aobas probably can fill this role, while still leaving 16 best cruisers for other assignments. From the game perspective, 5500-ton cruisers serve as very useful fleet warhorses and convoy escorts during the initial expansion, so the trade-off will be felt as well. Later in the game, though, the situation will improve with arrival of new CLAAs and converted ships.

Any further pre-war expansion, if a scheme to get more money for cruiser building can be plausibly concocted, should consist of producing improved variants of Mogami design, saving money through unification and building the cheapest possible type that still dominates any cruiser of the probable enemy one-on-one.

EDIT: Actually, considering 6 ships not built and replaced by converted CLs instead (AS Taigei, CM Okinoshima, CM Tsugaru, three training cruisers), I think in the long run we might even be saving a bit of money here, compared to reality. Not nearly enough for another pair of first-rate cruisers, but maybe enough to pay for some extra DDs.

You might notice that I like Mogami design... well, yeah. Despite accusations of being overloaded and unfortunate vulnerability of the torpedo banks*, sinking all of them but unlucky Suzuya required massive amounts of damage, they were quite well-armed and not quite as big and expensive as their precedessors, which is important here.

*In fact, it is pretty interesting that 3 out of 3 Long Lance detonation accidents that resulted in loss of ships that might have survived otherwise happened during the Battle of Leyte Gulf. Bad luck or maybe problems with late-war produced torpedoes?

[John 3rd]

I was using the Agano as a class reference to a new group of CLs prior to and then going into the war armed with a main battery of 3x3, solid secondary, strong TT battery, aircraft, and displacement of around 8,500T. This is what you mean by the Aoba's?

I assume you are saying to build any further CLs with 3rd and 4th Circle to be along the size and layout of these converted ships? If so, it makes sense to me. What could be built in 3rd and 4th? My thoughts would be two more in 3rd and 4 in 4th. Essentially we recreate the budget for the 4 Agano and 2 Oyodo from the war but in a far more useful hull.

The CAs seem to work through 3rd and 4th Circle. 12 CA built through 2nd Circle and then orders placed for 2 CA in 3rd and 2 CA in 4th. The last pair are building when the war begins. Sounds good.

Do we have consensus?

[FatR]

We're in consensus about CAs.

I mean old cruisers of Aoba and Furutaka classes refitted to 9x155mm armament, so around the specs you've described. With sharply limited resources, I see no purpose in constructing more ships of this size. They can match new Allied cruisers in night combat, but not during day, and their size realistically leaves too little space for DP armament. Plus, as was mentioned above, high-power engines are a bottleneck. As you can see above, in my proposal I tried to avoid going significantly above the cost of the existing shipbuilding program (to the extent allowed by my limited knowledge).
Even if we postulate extra money for the navy (from the war in China starting later, or something else), a significant expansion to light forces and auxialiries is necessary in accordance with the postulated shift in priorities, so money better be spent there. Also, on expansion of aviation training program, aircraft industty expansion and AAA armament production.
I also wanted to avoid buffing Japanese too much at the start. That's one of the reasons (besides providing the player with options) why the reconstruction of the older 5500-ton CLs should happen during the game.

And to serve as torpedo division leaders, as I said above, a destroyer leader/light cruiser (classification should depend on whether it will be decided to make these ships armored, or not), designed to carry new DP armament, should be created and built during the war, instead of economically non-viable Shimakaze.

[John 3rd]

Ahhhhhh...now I understand the vision you are being governed by. OK. This makes sense.

The only CLs added would be a pair in 3rd Circle as you described in this note: In the post-treaty period - build four Mogami-derivatives with the same 203mm armament. Build two light cruisers meant to support the carrier force in search, AA defence and command center roles. Basically, smaller versions of Oyodos, following a more realistic doctrine (sub doctrine should be different by that time anyway). They should be big enough to carry four floatplanes. Armament should consist only of 127/50 DP guns now in development (8-12 of them), which will delay availability to 1943, at best late 1942 (see my suggestions on armament above). Hopefully this could be placed in 6500-7000 tons. So instead of seven cruisers each of which is impaired in some aspect, we'll build six more useful ones.

There is no issue with this and me due the ability of the player to choose conversion of the mothballed CLs to either a Kitakami-syle torpedo cruiser OR a CLAA. As with RA, this leave it up to the PLAYER to make choices and I do so love that.

[John 3rd]

I think I've got a Japanese design for a CL--Air Search type ship in my books. Will try to find it.

[FatR]

I take it, you approve my proposal about armaments above?

Meanwhile, a quick recap on carriers:

- Early Japanese carriers: Akagi, Atago, Hosho, 12.5k ton Ryujo (the plane complement will remain the same as it is in the game currently, as in practice it was lower, the third pair of medium AA mounts will remain installed and some protection will be added) reclassified as CV.
- As you might have noticed, I'm against building any dedicated shadow fleet ships. Taigei, Takasaki and Tsurugisaki are not built. Taigei is replaced in its initial role, which is also necessary, by two converted CLs, and others were laid down past treaties breakdown, when the naval arms race is already inevitable, so what's the point. Instead, build two repeat Hiryu* carriers.
- Once the war with the Western powers becomes highly probable, in second half of 1940, start laying down repeat Shokaku carriers, with the plan of completing two per year, the first pair available in late 1942-early 1943, the second pair in late 1943-early 1944 and so on. Build nothing else, certainly no Taiho. As initially the threat of war is yet uncertain, and funding limited (so are the plane and pilot pools), part of the money for buildig the first pair will be obtained by pausing conversion of less valuable merchant ships to CVEs until 1943, when they will be needed as aircraft transports and ASW ships. Taiyo, Unyo and Chuyo arrive in 1943. Junyo and Hiyo are converted as IRL.

So, how do you like this plan?

* By the way, I've just noticed that Unryu class has wastly reduced armor compared to Hiryu in the game. ???

[John 3rd]

Cruisers are now good.

BBs good.

ON CVs we still have a some issues. Hosho did not count against tonnage whatsoever since it was used as a Training Ship--like Langley. Akagi and Atago are good, however, there is now substantial tonnage available for something different. My vote is the Japanese move smaller just like the US (Ranger) but opt for WAY smaller and build a true CVL at about 10,000T. It would not need to be reconstructed several times as did Ryujo (Saving $$$). The dollars saved here and elsewhere then could be spent on building a proto-Soryu. Specific plans and proposals to follow later today once my son's 5TH B-Day Party is over.

What about DDs and SS?

I'd say hold on auxiliary ships until we've settled all the warships.

[FatR]

Why not build a proto-Soryu right away, then, in according to your previous proposal? Alternatively, what is going to be sacrificed to get money for an extra light carrier?

I have no real ideas about the sub fleet. About DDs, will post a plan a bit later.

[Cyber Me]

ORIGINAL: FatR

Final count by my proposal above, assuming the best case:

CAs: 4 Myoko, 4 Takao, 4 Mogami, 4 Mogami-Kai (about 2 should still be in construction at the beginning of the war) - 14 ready, 2 in construction. (Instead of 16 ready IRL, but ours are a bit better armed)

1-st class CLs: 2 Mogami, 4 Aoba - 6 ready, 0 in construction. (5 in construction IRL, but ours are significantly larger and better-armed.)

2-nd class CLs and CLAAs: 5 ready, 2 in consruction, 6 in reconstruction (18 ready IRL, quality is roughly the same on December of 1941, but newly constructed and reconstructed ships are much superior).

3-rd class CLs (trainers): 3 ready. (3 ready IRL).

As you can see, the first cruiser line is considerably more numerous and packs a bigger punch at the beginning of hostilities.
This is bought at the expense of second-line cruisers. Destroyer flotillas are quite short on flagships from RL standpoint, although Aobas probably can fill this role, while still leaving 16 best cruisers for other assignments. From the game perspective, 5500-ton cruisers serve as very useful fleet warhorses and convoy escorts during the initial expansion, so the trade-off will be felt as well. Later in the game, though, the situation will improve with arrival of new CLAAs and converted ships.

Any further pre-war expansion, if a scheme to get more money for cruiser building can be plausibly concocted, should consist of producing improved variants of Mogami design, saving money through unification and building the cheapest possible type that still dominates any cruiser of the probable enemy one-on-one.

EDIT: Actually, considering 6 ships not built and replaced by converted CLs instead (AS Taigei, CM Okinoshima, CM Tsugaru, three training cruisers), I think in the long run we might even be saving a bit of money here, compared to reality. Not nearly enough for another pair of first-rate cruisers, but maybe enough to pay for some extra DDs.

You might notice that I like Mogami design... well, yeah. Despite accusations of being overloaded and unfortunate vulnerability of the torpedo banks*, sinking all of them but unlucky Suzuya required massive amounts of damage, they were quite well-armed and not quite as big and expensive as their precedessors, which is important here.

*In fact, it is pretty interesting that 3 out of 3 Long Lance detonation accidents that resulted in loss of ships that might have survived otherwise happened during the Battle of Leyte Gulf. Bad luck or maybe problems with late-war produced torpedoes?

The Long Lance torpedo was a danger for any ship carrying them due to their extremely volatile oxygen fuel system: six of Japanese CAs were sunk as a direct result of damage to the Long Lance torpedoes.
Suzuya: Was sunk by a near-miss bomb!!! that caused the long lance torpedoes to detonate, within two hours she sank.(not even hit)
Chokai: was hit by a single 5inch shell in the Battle of Samar that caused a sympathetic explosion among the torpedoes that damaged the rudder and engines- causing her to fall out of formation. A 500lb aerial bomb then hit her and Chokai became dead in the water and scuttled next day.
Abukuma: was struck by two 500lb bombs dropped by B24s on 26th Oct 1944. A fire started in the engine room and spread to the torpedo room where 4 torpedoes exploded. 5 mins later she sank.
Furutaka: was struck by over 90 shells during the Battle of Cape Esperance- some of her torpedoes exploded too- she sank over night.
Mikuma: damaged after colliding with the Mogani during the opening day of the Battle of Midway, Mikuma was hit by five bombs while returning to Wake Is- one bomb landed among the torpedo tubes- the resulting explosion sank the ship.
Mogami: Having received damage after ramming Mikuma, Mogani was returning to Wake Is when attacked planes that scored a single hit near the torpedo tubes- but luckily the ship's crew had jettisoned their torpedoes minutes before the planes arrived. Mogani made it back to Wake. During the Battle of Surigao Strait Mogani was hit by four 8in shells that damaged the bridge- but didn't start any fires. While trying to leave formation she collided with Nachi which started a fire which quickly spread to the torpedo tubes... soon five torpedoes exploded- leaving the ship dead in the water, and sunk by USN cruisers shortly afterwards.


Aoba: A single bomb hit dropped by a B-17 on April 3, 1943. Two long lance torpedoes exploded and the ship had to beached to prevent sinking. She had to be tow to Truk for repairs. Aoba Had to be towed to Kure- arriving on Aug 1. She returned to the fleet on 24th Dec 1943- but had her max speed permanently reduced to 25kn due to engine damage. Not sunk though.

The Japanese CA were sunk by their own torpedoes when they were hit or fires spread to them. Some CA were saved by jettisoning their torpedoes before an attack, but as the war continued munitions would become scarce and probably the skippers were reluctant to jettison them if they were not assured replenishment.

The other navies had rejected the compressed oxygen fuel systems for their torpedoes as too dangerous.

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: Cyber Me
The Long Lance torpedo was a danger for any ship carrying them due to their extremely volatile oxygen fuel system: six of Japanese CAs were sunk as a direct result of damage to the Long Lance torpedoes.

Two actually - Suzuya and Chokai. For that matter we don't actually know what happened on Chokai, although the torpedo detonation is the most likely culprit.

For Mogami the torpedo detonation probably was the critical blow, but let's not forget that she was rammed, hit by 2 227-kg bombs and 14-24 6- and 8-inch shells, and even then she only eventually lost propulsion due to engine breakdown and needed to be scuttled by Akebono - most cruisers would have been in dangerous situation from gunfire alone. And she still almost certainly would have survived after a victorious battle.
Mikuma was dead in the water with massive fires before the torpedo detonations (which happened several minutes after a bomb exploded right above torpedo tubes - not exactly). Before talking about Long Lance danger or something, kindly direct us to an Allied heavy cruiser that survived 5 hits and 2 close near-misses by bombs above 250 kg, preferably one which had all engines knocked out by those hits.
Abukuma took 1 torpedo hit and 3 direct bomb hits (by all rights, already enough to sink a small and old ship), which caused loss of power and steering. If you have an idea how a ship in such condition could have possibly survived in enemy waters, please enlighten us. Torpedo detonation was caused by uncontrollable fires, 17 minutes after the fatal bomb hits.
Furutaka... blaming her loss on torpedo detonations is extremely bizarre, as she took a torpedo and over 90 shells of various calibres. By comparison, Canberra was dead in the water and sinking from no more than 24 large-calibre hits, Astoria from 65 hits of various calibres, and both were larger ships.

ORIGINAL: Cyber Me
The Japanese CA were sunk by their own torpedoes when they were hit or fires spread to them.

Well, about up to three of them were, either by bad luck or decreasing quality of late-war torpedoes (as earlier in the war torpedo detonations followed direct bomb hits or uncontrollable fires). Not that their survival particularly mattered in October of 1944. So, did you have an actual proposal here?

[bigred]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

That is some solid thinking. Let me mull it over some before responding.

Anybody else got thoughts or reactions to what we've been chatting about?

Hi John. I am reading the thread from the beginning. What do u think about incorporation of the RHS varient where the USSR starts the game at war w/ japan, is in a neutral state unless the IJA pulls too many units out of marchuria? Instead of a Jap garrison requirement it is more of a real life type situation!

[FatR]

So, on destroyers. Let's keep things as they are until the middle of thirties, including Tomozuru Incident and Fourth Fleet Incident, to keep the link to political realities and perception of the Japanese fleet by foreigners.

After that:

- Stop building of torpedo boats after the Tomozuru class. Don't build 8 torpedo boats of Otori class.

- Instead, use money to thoroughly modify all destroyers of Minekaze and Kamikaze classes in late thirties, replacing their old armament. The newer ships (all 11 ships of Kamikaze class - it will include 11 ships, not 9, because 2 were cancelled due to Washington treaty - and 3 latest Minekazes, starting with Nokaze) will be rearmed to 1x1+1x2 127/40,1x4 610mm torpedo laucher,4x2 25/60 standard. The older ships (12 remaining Minekazes) will retain parts of their old torpedo armament and weapons removed from upgraded ships will be used for bringing them all to 1x1+1x2 120x45, 2x2 533mm torpedo launchers,5x2 25/60 standard. All these ships will carry 2 depth charge racks and 2 depth charge throwers (36 DCs). Of course, modern fire directors and so on will be installed. One of the boilers will be removed, and extra fuel tanks istalled, reducing speed to 31 knots (a bit less by the wartime, due to wear and tear) and increasing range.

- Use the rest of the money to modify all 20 Momi-class and 6 Wakatake-class torpedo boats into escort destroyers, meant primarily for anti-submarine warfare. Use primarily various old guns removed from newer ships as their armament, to achieve maximum economy. Again, remove a boiler, add fuel. Armament standard - 1x120/45, 1x2 533mm TT (will be removed during the war to increase small-calibre flak armament), 1x2 40/40, 2x4 13.2, 60 DCs, again with 2 racks and 2 throwers.

Thus IJN will receive 26 second-class destroyers with modern AA/ASW armament and 26 long-range escorts in addition to its modern destroyers.

- Rearm six Hatsuharu-class DDs to 3x2 127/40, as I described before, during their reconstruction. Add 3x3 + 2x1 25/60 as well in the process and increase ASW armament to at least 36 DCs. These will be attached to the carrier divisions.

- Build the first six Shiratsuyu-class DDs with the same cannon armament as Hatsuharus (but 2x4 TTs, as Shiratsuyus carried IRL), as an experiment in creation of a dedicated night fighting ship. Build the last four as Asashio-class DDs, bringing their total production to 14.

- By the time the Asashio production run is complete, the carrier faction strongly urges against construction of more destroyers with non-DP armament, and, owing to removal of research distractions, the new version of high-angle 127/50 turrets is completed 1.5 years earlier, allowing its installation on Kagero-class DDs, effectively uniting Kageros and Yugumos into one class. It is not a very satifsying compromize, as the new guns (thanks to the new dual-stat model) remain mostly inadequate against aircraft. Lay down 20 of these ships until second half of 1940.


Until this moment I haven't tinkered with production and the number of ships. Is everyone OK with these ideas? If so, I'll finish the proposal for immediate pre-war and wartime production tomorrow

[Terminus]

Where will all these extra weapons come from? Japan couldn't produce enough IRL.

A few of her older capital ships had to go to war without receiving the 12.7cm AA guns, because there weren't enough to be had.

[FatR]

As far as I know 470 127/40 guns were produced before the war. 104 to arm all carriers, 104 to arm all battleships (including Yamatos), 96 to arm all cruisers that can use Type 89, 18 to seaplane tenders. Even including a few ships I cannot be bothered to count, production exceeds demand by over 100 units. Extra 127/40s in the proposal above, not counting those ordered in place of other modern guns, number only 42 (counting those, 102).

As about the reason why Japanese failed to reequip all their capital ships to 127/40 before the war (besides space and weight limitations on some ships), the most plausible explanation I've heard is lack of funds for upgrade works. Well, the proposal includes cancelling 8 ships to provide funds and extensive use of tubes removed from more valuable ships.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: bigred

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

That is some solid thinking. Let me mull it over some before responding.

Anybody else got thoughts or reactions to what we've been chatting about?

Hi John. I am reading the thread from the beginning. What do u think about incorporation of the RHS varient where the USSR starts the game at war w/ japan, is in a neutral state unless the IJA pulls too many units out of marchuria? Instead of a Jap garrison requirement it is more of a real life type situation!

Hey BigRed!

My standard reaction is "I HATE China and USSR!" What do people think of this thought?

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: FatR

So, on destroyers. Let's keep things as they are until the middle of thirties, including Tomozuru Incident and Fourth Fleet Incident, to keep the link to political realities and perception of the Japanese fleet by foreigners.

After that:

- Stop building of torpedo boats after the Tomozuru class. Don't build 8 torpedo boats of Otori class.

- Instead, use money to thoroughly modify all destroyers of Minekaze and Kamikaze classes in late thirties, replacing their old armament. The newer ships (all 11 ships of Kamikaze class - it will include 11 ships, not 9, because 2 were cancelled due to Washington treaty - and 3 latest Minekazes, starting with Nokaze) will be rearmed to 1x1+1x2 127/40,1x4 610mm torpedo laucher,4x2 25/60 standard. The older ships (12 remaining Minekazes) will retain parts of their old torpedo armament and weapons removed from upgraded ships will be used for bringing them all to 1x1+1x2 120x45, 2x2 533mm torpedo launchers,5x2 25/60 standard. All these ships will carry 2 depth charge racks and 2 depth charge throwers (36 DCs). Of course, modern fire directors and so on will be installed. One of the boilers will be removed, and extra fuel tanks istalled, reducing speed to 31 knots (a bit less by the wartime, due to wear and tear) and increasing range.

- Use the rest of the money to modify all 20 Momi-class and 6 Wakatake-class torpedo boats into escort destroyers, meant primarily for anti-submarine warfare. Use primarily various old guns removed from newer ships as their armament, to achieve maximum economy. Again, remove a boiler, add fuel. Armament standard - 1x120/45, 1x2 533mm TT (will be removed during the war to increase small-calibre flak armament), 1x2 40/40, 2x4 13.2, 60 DCs, again with 2 racks and 2 throwers.

Thus IJN will receive 26 second-class destroyers with modern AA/ASW armament and 26 long-range escorts in addition to its modern destroyers.

- Rearm six Hatsuharu-class DDs to 3x2 127/40, as I described before, during their reconstruction. Add 3x3 + 2x1 25/60 as well in the process and increase ASW armament to at least 36 DCs. These will be attached to the carrier divisions.

- Build the first six Shiratsuyu-class DDs with the same cannon armament as Hatsuharus (but 2x4 TTs, as Shiratsuyus carried IRL), as an experiment in creation of a dedicated night fighting ship. Build the last four as Asashio-class DDs, bringing their total production to 14.

- By the time the Asashio production run is complete, the carrier faction strongly urges against construction of more destroyers with non-DP armament, and, owing to removal of research distractions, the new version of high-angle 127/50 turrets is completed 1.5 years earlier, allowing its installation on Kagero-class DDs, effectively uniting Kageros and Yugumos into one class. It is not a very satifsying compromize, as the new guns (thanks to the new dual-stat model) remain mostly inadequate against aircraft. Lay down 20 of these ships until second half of 1940.


Until this moment I haven't tinkered with production and the number of ships. Is everyone OK with these ideas? If so, I'll finish the proposal for immediate pre-war and wartime production tomorrow

Converting the older DDs into DE is EXCELLENT. We've decided that the Japanese will pay attention to ASW. This will begin a serious attempt at that without costing the Japanese too much of their DD Force at the war's start. One might make an argument that these ship conversion could serve as the research platforms for wartime escorts of better effectiveness.

You had highly specific stats regarding those guns. Where did you get the info? Would love that source! [8D]

[John 3rd]

Keep mulling around ideas for the replacement of Ryujo. Have, perhaps, a semi-radical idea. How about the Japanese follow their tendency of quality over quantity? The Kaingun has 25,000T of carrier building left after Akagi and Atago are completed. How about--instead of building Proto-Soryu--they elect instead to build a proto-Shokaku? They certainly have the tonnage available and it is only ONE hull taking the place of Ryujo. Yes--it would be more expensive but it would also serve as a great reason why the Japanese reduce size to a pair of Hiryus with Circle Two and then decide to bounce back to the the Shokaku-Class with Circle 3.

It is a very different idea to think about...