3R-Axis - Avalon Hill 'Third Reich' for TOAW - by sPzAbt653

[Crossroads]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I like how the BRPs appear as dispandable units in conquered capitals.

I expected it to be a fun aspect, maybe if Rodia gives it a little more time it will grow on him. [;)]

Alternatively, there could be a separate BRP box, like there is one for Murmansk. It would be easier to spot the dispansable units, while there still would be a 3R feel for receiving units based on areas conquered.

Dispanding units with a name Poland, Belgium, France etc give a very nice "3R" feel, one that I would like to see kept.

Of course, when they are grouped into one box, the pain of diminihing resources when tides of war have changed is very visible too. Something that the behind-scenes percentages would not yield.

I say keep them [:)]

[sPzAbt653]

Alternatively, there could be a separate BRP box ...

I think this is possible, I just have to figure out how the events would work (occupations can get messy).

You and Rodia should give me your names so I can put them in the scenario credits. PM or e-mail me if you don't want to post them here.

[Rodia]

No credits for me please, I'm trying to keep a low profile [:'(]

QUICK 1.2 GAME!

I was finishing France in 1.2 when one yellow infantry unit (english?) came of nowhere and took Berlin. I promise.

I got an event in the news "Allies Conquer Germany!!". Retook Berlin in the same turn, and one turn later all Germany units were withdrawn.

News were like that:

SPRING 1941
Allies Conquer Germany!! <--- the bastards
Axis capture Berlin

SUMMER 1941
Axis Reclaim Germany!!


But I didn't get any end screen or anything.

Lol, I lost WW2 in turn 8.

[Crossroads]

No credits needed for me either [:D]

Still early phases of Barbarossa for me.

I am traveling for a couple of days, but hope to continue be playing when back!

[sPzAbt653]

No credits for me please, I'm trying to keep a low profile

No credits needed for me either

Great, now I have to take the blame for this whole thing. [:(]

Lol, I lost WW2 in turn 8.

Well ... don't leave Berlin ungarrisoned. [:-]

The question is, did the Brits sneak past your lines thru Belgium, or was there something else going on ?

[sPzAbt653]

Retook Berlin in the same turn, and one turn later all Germany units were withdrawn.

Oops, a bank of bad events, its fixed now. Don't start again until v1.3 is posted, or who knows what else might go bonkers. [:@]

But I didn't get any end screen or anything.

It actually shouldn't end until Italy and Germany fall, but I hadn't implemented that yet. I'll include that in v1.3. Anything else ?

[Rodia]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

The question is, did the Brits sneak past your lines thru Belgium, or was there something else going on ?

ORIGINAL: Rodia

... one yellow infantry unit (english?) came of nowhere...

Yeah, I should be more precise. Definitively nothing strange at all on that, I had some AI invasions as I left the coast ungarrisoned.

[Crossroads]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Great, now I have to take the blame for this whole thing. [:(]

Well, since it is you who's done all the hard work it is only fair you get all the blame for this mess as well [:)]

I will hereby credit myself for insisting Gulf of Finland should be full hexes. That was not your fault. See I'm not a heartless sob after all. [;)]

Looking forward to seeing the new version!

[sPzAbt653]

Looking forward to seeing the new version!

I'm trying to think of something else to add in (besides the correction that will make it playable again, lol). Maybe the Lend-Lease route thru Persia.

So far I can't figure how to get the BRP Units out of the Capitols and into their own box. It takes too many complex events. [:(]

[Crossroads]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I'm trying to think of something else to add in (besides the correction that will make it playable again, lol). Maybe the Lend-Lease route thru Persia.

The Persian Lend-lease route I forgot all about. I don't think I ever used in the board games I played, though it must be at least a good 15 yrs since I played the board game version ...

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Strategic Warfare - Axis Subs and Allied Bombers.

I don't intend to put any effort into modeling this aspect of Third Reich. But if anyone can put forth a workable idea, I will entertain it.

I tried to come up with ideas about this aspect of the board game again, but did not come up with anything... Must. Try. Harder. [:D]

Economic aspect was sort of a new thing with 3r box set at the time I think. I like how you implemented the BRP rule here though, so I don't know if we are really missing anything by not having the Strategic Warfare component available.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
So far I can't figure how to get the BRP Units out of the Capitols and into their own box. It takes too many complex events. [:(]

Well there aren't that many of them, and they only appear a few times per game, so I believe the effort of remembering to consider each unit is not such a burden.

It still cathches the board game feel very nicely imho. That, and having the FOW off [:)]

Of course if you come up with an idea that would be great.

I am in the middle of play testing three new JTCS scenarios, but I will try to dedicate more time to play a complete 3R game over the weekend instead. Looking forward to see for an example how the Murmansk Lend-Lease route performs and how the rise of the Allies takes place. Latter should not be a problem regardless, as I am such a lousy player lol.

It should be a fun weekend ahead [:)]

[Crossroads]

Regarding Strategic Warfare, I was toying with an idea that there'd be a 'standard model' how the German economic engine would behave, something that perhaps initially gives them an advance, but later on starts to decline. This is propably what you have done with the BRP system right now?

Then, there'd be certain milestones, if certain criteria is not met, Germany would be penalised.

Something among the line that if Paris does not fall by Fall 1940 there's a penalty. But if it already falls on say Spring 1940 there's a bonus.

There could be a few key locations such as this, and depending who owns them at which stage there'd be an adjustment of additional 'BRP's, reported as SW results.

Out of my head:
Poland Fall 1939
Denmark, Norway Spring 1940
Netherlands, Belgium Summer 1940
Paris Fall 1940
Some USSR cities Fall 1941
Some USSR cities Fall 1942
Some USSR cities Fall 1943
Italy still Axis by Fall 1943
Finland Bulgaria Romania still Axis by Summer 1944

Something in Africa somewhere along the time line as well. And special bonus for Nazi Gibraltar!

Not too many though, to keep this still relatively simple.

These events would be reported to players somehow so they would know how they are faring. But using "3R language" related to Strategic warfare. So when the news are positive, it could be because of new Submarine models and new, efficient interceptors. And when negative, because of strategic bombing and anti-submarine warfare?

I have no idea how difficult it is to program events into TOAW, and I don't know if this makes any sense or not.

And it still sounds like the BRP reinforcements calculation logic and not SW logic...

But I'm trying![:)]

[Crossroads]

Then again, I'd hate if these events would force the players to just trying to repeat historical timelines, instead of being creative. For the next game I've already decided to postpone Barbarossa and to initiate Sealion instead as soon as capable for doing it.

Therefore I guess there should be parallel options if possible. London conquered by Summer 1942 in a manner that would at least partially negate the missing of the Barbarossa deadlines?

But again, this still sounds like BRP calculation logic...

SW was a separate box in 3R. So what if this is separate box, and depending how many assets were created there, and how the separate SW-battle ends, it could trigger some stuff. SW-fighters between the Axis and Allies would deduce strategic airwar results, and SW-fleet action would deduce submarine results.

All this sounds more and more like a bad idea... Maybe we should leave it as it currently is, as everything plays out quite nicely without any arbitrary complexities for the sake of similar arbitrary complexities inherited from the 3R rule set... [&:]

[sPzAbt653]

Maybe the Lend-Lease route thru Persia.

In the original it was tied into holding [Tabriz and Sarab] and [Grozny, Astrakhan and Krasnovodsk], so its too convoluted for TOAW. There should still be a way to get the BRP's to the USSR while still giving the Axis a chance to block them. But this would also rely on the PO protecting the route, which isn't a guaranteed thing. Perhaps ... if Tabriz falls to the Axis, a Theater Option appears to 'Block Persian Lend-Lease Route', if choosen two German Inf Korps are withdrawn permanently to the benefit of the Lend-Lease being shut down. The player has to weigh it out.

[sPzAbt653]

... it still sounds like the BRP reinforcements calculation logic and not SW logic...

Yes it does, but the whole scheme makes me think of something simpler. Because we're not giving the PO any choices, we really only have to deal with the Axis side of it, so maybe :

1. Axis recieve a BRP reduction in 43, 44 and 45 based on historical Allied Bombing increases.

2. Axis gets Theater Options in 43, 44 and 45 to 'Increase Air Defense', which would lower the Bombing reductions but also reduce Axis Fighter and Bomber replacements.

The player would have to decide between taking the automatic reductions or protecting the overall force at the sacrifice of Airpower.

[sPzAbt653]

Looking forward to see for an example how the Murmansk Lend-Lease route performs and how the rise of the Allies takes place.

Yes, these items are of great interest. I made changes to Elmer after my last run thru but have yet to test them out. I'm hoping he can get ashore in France by 1944, and praying that he will keep some units in Africa to defend Egypt.

[Crossroads]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

... it still sounds like the BRP reinforcements calculation logic and not SW logic...

Yes it does, but the whole scheme makes me think of something simpler. Because we're not giving the PO any choices, we really only have to deal with the Axis side of it, so maybe :

1. Axis recieve a BRP reduction in 43, 44 and 45 based on historical Allied Bombing increases.

2. Axis gets Theater Options in 43, 44 and 45 to 'Increase Air Defense', which would lower the Bombing reductions but also reduce Axis Fighter and Bomber replacements.

The player would have to decide between taking the automatic reductions or protecting the overall force at the sacrifice of Airpower.

Yeah, I think that's it! And another option for investing in submarines, lowering the Lend-lease rate / Allied BRP rate, but again lowering their fleet replacements perhaps. [:)]

[sPzAbt653]

And another option for investing in submarines, lowering the Lend-lease rate / Allied BRP rate, but again lowering their fleet replacements perhaps.

Damn we're good. [8D]

[Crossroads]

Damn right we are [;)]

Perhaps the Submarine option should be made quite early on. Building a fleet in the board game took a year. So perhaps from the very beginning the Axis players should start considering adding to their submarine fleet for the next Year Sequence.

Both SW components could then be made visible for the player on the turn the decision needs to made. Current levels for the both sides, what they mean to BRP calculation, then the option to built interceptors / submarines. And when these are calculated the results should be reported to players again with proper '3R language'.

We're on a roll! [8D]

[Crossroads]

Turn 14 - Fall 1942. Leningrad falls by not following history and having Finns participating in the attack. Barbarossa gains slowly momentum.

All is not quiet on West Front. A US Corps lands in Calais in Summer 1942. Another corps join them in the fall! I'll be damned if I move to coastal hex with all those allied fleet there. So I am just guarding the bridgehead, digging in. Dieppe is a success in this alternative reality!

On a separate note I can't find my Italian troops anywhere now that I had them joined in. Did I forget to built them, or what might have happened.

Turkey has joined in as an Allied Country. Did I move next to them?

Hmm, I will take notes for the next test round, instead of just doing one turn when ever I can steel a 15 minutes...

[Crossroads]

On a separate note, is it possible to remove the units a conqured nation has?

There's a Polish bomber unit in Norway, together with one inf unit with Red Army and another one in Balkans.

Then again, a lot of Polish men retreated to UK to fight another day so why not.