Community Modding Discussion

[aspqrz02]

Thanks! That worked! For Slovak Fast and Jaeger as well. Now for the rest!

Phil

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Thanks! That worked! And I would probably never have found it, even by accident.

Now I have Security Divisions with Regiments I and II and will soon be working on the Jaeger Divisions and Slovak Fast Division, then onto other German/Axis Divisions now I know what to do!

Now, if only I could figure out how to make the Regiments show their Nato symbol (Armour, Artillery etc.) instead of the Divisional one [&:]

Thanks!

Phil

Good.

OK, to get the Regiments showing Regt symbols instead of Div symbols, your best bet is to install the Ritterkrieg Mod and go from there.

Setting the Divisional assets to use Regt counters was achieved by editing the Div NATO counters and replacing the XX with lll. However, it could also have been done by clicking the 'Nat' button (next to 'Sh') and pointing the MODEL at another Nato graphic.

How he got the different sub-units to each use different Regt icons I don't know. I asked him but he didn't reply, so it remains a secret

[aspqrz02]

Yes, I will fool around with pointing to different symbols after deleting the originals from the Model Unit, which did the trick, after a bit of fiddling, for the Security, Jaeger and Slovak Fast Divisions ... but not tonight [>:]

Phil

[Ritterkrieg_slith]

Out of the loop here but here is my answer to your email phil...

Phil, your in luck!

The Divisional structure of the game includes a number assigned to the different types of Regimental or parts and this will invoke changes or overlays when displayed on the map.

This is set in the 'His' tab by using the 'Set Subpart' tab.

Basically this is what I know so far:

11 will show the Artillery symbol

13, 14, 15 will invoke the I II and III when displayed on map.

16 will show the Pz

-1 will show nothing.

Troy

[Redmarkus5]

Troy - did you Mod 11 in order to turn it into the combined Inf/Arty symbol in your mod? I can't see my files right now.

If you did, how do you get the Artillery sub-unit to show that NATO graphic and not the same graphic as the rest of the Division?

[Ritterkrieg_slith]

Its rather simple; the formation is assigned an overall NATO using Hist. tab.

The 11 and 16 are overlays to this NATO invoked with the subpart number assignment.

Troy

[Redmarkus5]

Ah, right - got it, thanks.

It doesn't look simple to me...

[Ritterkrieg_slith]

So looking at the modding of panzer div in the game has brought up an issue with the German formations. There were many panzer div that started Case Blue with a single Pz bn and others that had 2 or three so the single Ger. Panzer Bat. MODEL wont cut it for all.

As well, most of the PD had 12 Panzer IVf2 (early G) given to them regardless of the amount of BN in the Regiment.

I created a Ger. Panzer Bat. b to have the F2 instead of the E and this sort of works but it seems that to get any historical credibility we are going to have to go through the 20 or so panzer divisions and edit them individually. Case in point the 22 panzer division vanilla is pure fiction...it should be mostly Pz38(t)s. This is a fair bit of work but nothing compared to modding the OOB of the whole game!

One other issue is that if you want to edit the MODELS and then 'set all' to models then you will lose all your mico-editing so we need to have the models set right before this starts.

I think the OOB editing is best done as a community mod to allow everyone to pitch in and make something beautiful. I wouldnt mind doing some but not all!

Which brings up another issue of upgrades. Is this the '2nd reinforcement type' in the SFT tab???

VICTOR where are you?!? [:(]

Troy

[Redmarkus5]

I agree.

I think that Vic has been on holiday - IIRC he's back this week.

[aspqrz02]

According to the individual Divisional TO&Es (as of 28 July, 42) @ Nafziger, all the Panzer Divisions in DCCB except the 19th Panzer* had 3 Battalion Regiments ... and the 19th Panzer had an overstrength Battalion (4 x Light Tank Companies and 1 Medium Tank Company instead of 2 and 1**).

* The TO&E for the 23rd Panzer and 24th Panzer show the 201st Panzer Regiment, of 3 Battalions, for both ... since all other units seem to have different Battalion/Regimental Numbers, I presume this is one of his infrequent errors.

** Which would, presumably, have been temporary and unusual. How to mod it, though, as a special case that (may) later be corrected (or not). I would suspect that this can be done by having the 19th Panzer not point to a Historical Model ... or simply setting its start value differently, and let it attempt to build up to "normal" strength ... I think this can be done by doing it as the last unit being modded after doing the "Set ALL to their MODEL" button in Hist for any other changes (or does this button only apply to the currently selected unit type? ... you wouldn't think so from the label!)

So, maybe, not as big a problem as it might seem.

There is also the HisVar section (bottom left corner of the HIS screen), which *seems* to allow you to vary the TO&E of a unit by adding "attached" units to it. How this works, exactly, is, of course, unclear and not even hinted at in the manual. It may ... or may not ... be helpful at all.

Phil

[aspqrz02]

Thanks, that works! Didn't think it did, at first, till I followed redmarkus's sepatrate advice that you have to first delete all the changed units in the MODEL and then reload them with the new number.

Now the Slovak Fast Division has a Motorised Regiment, Panzer Regiment, and Artillery Regiment (with the nonstandard Artillery symbol, anyway [&:])

Now, my worry is ... all this work I am doing (or starting to do) ... if you are modding TO&E's and OOBs as well, and adding new sftypes, how to co-ordinate so we don't end up with reinventing the wheel ... or adding a fifth wheel [;)]. I think I may limit my work for the moment to see what you get up to!

Phil

[Ritterkrieg_slith]

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

According to the individual Divisional TO&Es (as of 28 July, 42) @ Nafziger, all the Panzer Divisions in DCCB except the 19th Panzer* had 3 Battalion Regiments ... and the 19th Panzer had an overstrength Battalion (4 x Light Tank Companies and 1 Medium Tank Company instead of 2 and 1**).

* The TO&E for the 23rd Panzer and 24th Panzer show the 201st Panzer Regiment, of 3 Battalions, for both ... since all other units seem to have different Battalion/Regimental Numbers, I presume this is one of his infrequent errors.

** Which would, presumably, have been temporary and unusual. How to mod it, though, as a special case that (may) later be corrected (or not). I would suspect that this can be done by having the 19th Panzer not point to a Historical Model ... or simply setting its start value differently, and let it attempt to build up to "normal" strength ... I think this can be done by doing it as the last unit being modded after doing the "Set ALL to their MODEL" button in Hist for any other changes (or does this button only apply to the currently selected unit type? ... you wouldn't think so from the label!)

So, maybe, not as big a problem as it might seem.

There is also the HisVar section (bottom left corner of the HIS screen), which *seems* to allow you to vary the TO&E of a unit by adding "attached" units to it. How this works, exactly, is, of course, unclear and not even hinted at in the manual. It may ... or may not ... be helpful at all.

Phil

Hey Phil.

According to Jentz, Panzertruppen I, there seems to be great sways in the Panzer Division composition July 42.

1st Pz Dv 1 x Bn and about 50 tanks;
2nd Pz Dv 1 x Bn and about 80 tanks;
3rd Pz Dv 3 x Bn and over 160 tanks;
4th Pz Dv 1 x Bn and 47 tanks;
5th Pz Dv 2 x Bn and almost 100 tanks and on it goes...

The Nafziger site - is a great reference but lots of it is based on official TO&E - not actual tank strength.

Im sure we can come up with agreeable numbers to set the MODELS at and let the random readiness built into the game take care of the plus or minus factor.

If you are working on OOB and new units, we really should work together; I have been doing the same. Really dont want to fall into what you have described, where we are all working in the same areas and getting bogged down in the immensity of the edits. If you want to do OOB and I can do graphics we will be so much further ahead.

Troy

[aspqrz02]

Yes, when I did my work on TO&E's I noted that it was only the theoretical situation. I'd prefer, personally, to have the MODELS based on the theoretical TO&E and actual UNITS based on a randomisation.

I'd like to know how the random at start strength variations is worked, and whether it can be modded or not.

As I have mentioned in other threads, relating to Romanian and other Axis allied divisions, the TO&E strengths were the way the Germans (largely) viewed them prior to Stalingrad ... even though they were way way under strength. My preference, for example, is to mod the Romanians as 3 x Infantry Regiment, 1 x Artillery Regiment Division, just like the Germans, even if, in reality, they were way way under strength.

I'd really like to see if you can mod the random strength variations at start as different between the different nationalities (and, perhaps, between different types of units ... mechanised and motorised units more savaged than, say, Infantry, for example), for a start ... I'd really savagely downcheck Romanian strength, but keep their theoretical TO&E to represent the way the Germans had them deployed.

And it would be really nice if you could hand mod units for which you have specific information at the individual unit level and not have that changed by the MODEL values. What is really needed is a "Change this specific unit to Historical MODEL value" button that only changes the one unit if you want to do that.

It would also be nice if you could directly combine units that have been decimated, as was historically done, by simply having them in the same hex and forming a Kampfgruppe, rather than by the clumsy alternative of disbanding one and then setting Replacement to PRIORITY for the other and having the elements sent back to OKH to be sent forward again to the unit in the same hex where the disbanded unit had been! That would reflect historical practice.

As for co-operating on TO&Es and OOBs, I have posted OOB and, for the Germans and Axis Allies, TO&E data in the main part of the forum and you can easily see where out sources disagree and point them out*! Which would be greatly appreciated!

* I have mainly used Nafziger and Niehorster, though I do have the reprint of the Handbook of German Military Forces (1945), which more reflects the situation of 1943/44 as a backup, though. A reasonable set of sources, but no way comprehensive! If you have better ones (and it seems you do have better data for the situation in actuality), I'd appreciate the input.

Phil

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

According to the individual Divisional TO&Es (as of 28 July, 42) @ Nafziger, all the Panzer Divisions in DCCB except the 19th Panzer* had 3 Battalion Regiments ... and the 19th Panzer had an overstrength Battalion (4 x Light Tank Companies and 1 Medium Tank Company instead of 2 and 1**).

* The TO&E for the 23rd Panzer and 24th Panzer show the 201st Panzer Regiment, of 3 Battalions, for both ... since all other units seem to have different Battalion/Regimental Numbers, I presume this is one of his infrequent errors.

** Which would, presumably, have been temporary and unusual. How to mod it, though, as a special case that (may) later be corrected (or not). I would suspect that this can be done by having the 19th Panzer not point to a Historical Model ... or simply setting its start value differently, and let it attempt to build up to "normal" strength ... I think this can be done by doing it as the last unit being modded after doing the "Set ALL to their MODEL" button in Hist for any other changes (or does this button only apply to the currently selected unit type? ... you wouldn't think so from the label!)

So, maybe, not as big a problem as it might seem.

There is also the HisVar section (bottom left corner of the HIS screen), which *seems* to allow you to vary the TO&E of a unit by adding "attached" units to it. How this works, exactly, is, of course, unclear and not even hinted at in the manual. It may ... or may not ... be helpful at all.

Phil

Or just create a new Hist MODEL called 19th Pz Div and give it the extra tanks?...

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

I'd like to know how the random at start strength variations is worked, and whether it can be modded or not.

Phil

This is handled by Events 29, 30 and 31, each of which executes on a different start date to cover Kharkov, Case Blue and Uranus.

The Soviets and Axis are both randomized and different unit types are treated differently, or can be. The events can also be turned off if you want all units to start with the assigned TOE, but then they won't reinforce above that starting level.

[Redmarkus5]

I guess you know this already, but just in case...

You can create a non-MODEL historical unit and give it whatever sub-units you want. Anything in the Hist units list that does not say 'MODEL' in the name is such a historical unit.

On the map, press 'HOME' to add a default unit based on the MODEL, or 'PgUp' to put one of the custom built historical units, such as 19th Pz Div. This allows you to tweak the starting OOB of any division to match history.

Because the tweaked unit is still based on one of the default MODELS, it will adjust to its full TOE as reinforcements permit, so I guess there's a risk that it will return units to the pool if it starts over the TOE. The key is probably to ensure that the MODEL TOE's reflect the largest divisional size recorded for the type...

Just brain dumping here.

[aspqrz02]

I'll have a look at those events! Sounds like they can do what I would like!

Phil

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

I guess you know this already, but just in case...

You can create a non-MODEL historical unit and give it whatever sub-units you want. Anything in the Hist units list that does not say 'MODEL' in the name is such a historical unit.

On the map, press 'HOME' to add a default unit based on the MODEL, or 'PgUp' to put one of the custom built historical units, such as 19th Pz Div. This allows you to tweak the starting OOB of any division to match history.

Because the tweaked unit is still based on one of the default MODELS, it will adjust to its full TOE as reinforcements permit, so I guess there's a risk that it will return units to the pool if it starts over the TOE. The key is probably to ensure that the MODEL TOE's reflect the largest divisional size recorded for the type...

Just brain dumping here.

Yes, I'd figured that out ... you just have to be careful to do all this after you have updated ALL the MODELS and used those MODELS to force update ALL the units you wish to have at "standard" (i.e "MODEL") TO&E ...

... but ...

... does the at start historical randomisation of unit strengths randomise even these hand modded units? If it does, it would sort of defeat the whole purpose of hand modding them!

For *overstrength" units, I am guessing that the HisVar section of the HIST screen allows you to add additional units ... to specific "Historical" ones, I guess?

Phil

[Redmarkus5]

Yes, it randomises all on-map units at the start of Turn 1. But there is a work-around:

1. Create your OOB, put the units on the map and complete all scenario creation steps.
2. Go into the Events editor and select event 30 (or 29/31) and click the execute now button. All units are now randomized.
3. Now edit the event so that it no longer runs at startup.
4. Finally, edit those particular units you are interested in. They will stay pretty much as edited (although we have noted some very slight randomization still occurring).

The downside is that players will have a fixed set of randomized units with no changes between games.

No doubt it is also possible to exclude given units or unit types from the Event, but that calls for a good degree of skill.

[aspqrz02]

OK. Sounds like that should work ... I certainly have no idea at all what all the ... gobbledygook ... in the various Events actually means ...

... I'm a researcher, not a programmer [;)]

Still, maybe Vic will have some suggestions when he's back from hols.

Phil