Case Blue Don Waltz - Bonners (axis) vs Olivier

[Bonners]

20th October - Russian Armavir offensive

I am not too sure yet if this is a full blown offensive or a spoiling attack. I will be quite pleased if it is not an offensive, as if it is, it will have one of Olivier's horrible codewords. Olivier is really good at launching Russian offensives, but his code words are horrible[:D]

Anyway, he succeeds in pushing my infantry about once again and with dual attacks manages to grind another infantry regiment into the dust. he then pushes on through wit ha fresh tank corps to directly threaten my communications.

I am still weak in this area, but decide I cant just let Olivier push me around, so I decide to fight back. For the next turn two panzer divisions, a motorized division and the SS motorized brigade are brought in form the west to counter attack Olivier's forces.

In the meantime I play a freedom card from 17th army and a speed card on one of the infantry divisions and try and take on the fresh tank corps. Although I dont push it back I am happy enough that Olivier will have to think twice before carrying on the offensive, especially with my reinforcements now arriving. I decide to risk some of my precious bombers and managed to reduce the readiness of the tank corps with my level bombers, with thankfully very few losses.

As an aside, Olivier finally evacuates Taman this turn, probably the right thing to do as I think his troops were beginning to suffer from a lack of supply

[hlhudson]

Bonner,

Thank you for all of your AARs. They are a great read and in the end it was your AARs that tipped the scales in my decision to get DC:CB.

Henry

[Bonners]

The scene cuts to a telephone conversation at OKH......

Zeitler (in a state of agitation talking on the telephone) : ...but Von Bonners, we have Russian breakthroughs around Armavir, the Romanians on the flank are threatened.....

(pauses to listen to pleading on other end of line)

.....no I dont want to talk to Frau Bonners you must tell her.....

(more pleading)...

....Frau Bonners (gulps in air)...how lovely to speak to you....

(rabid unintelligible chatter at the other end of the line)

.....no of course Von Bonners can have the weekend off, I'm sure we'll manage to deal with the Russians without him for a few days, what is a million Russian troops amongst friends...

(line clicks dead)

Zeitler collapses into a heap of tears

[Bonners]

ORIGINAL: hlhudson74

Bonner,

Thank you for all of your AARs. They are a great read and in the end it was your AARs that tipped the scales in my decision to get DC:CB.

Henry

Thanks Henry, glad you enjoy them. I enjoy writing them and really use them as a learning process. I get loads of useful hints to improve my play and get lots of ideas for future games as well.

[LiquidSky]

You can play the avoid cards with the objective in your high command..however, you will still lose the points for that city. However, you won't get the city again as an objective. My opponent tells me that he still gets it as a defensive one, though.

So...Stalingrad is showing as an objective. I play Avoid Stalingrad. When time runs out, I lose the points for Stalingrad..then no longer get the city as an objective.

Other things I have noticed...You wont get Krasnador as an objective unless Rostov falls..so it gives you that long to gain the avoid points if you don't want to do the Caucaus at all. And Krasnador leads to the Poti and Grozny....so if you avoid Krasnador, you only have to worry about Astrakahn if you take Stalingrad.



By the way, strategic postion will not change unless you have lost enough victory points over the last 4 turns to average umm..4 I think...then there is only a percentage chance that it will change.

[Bonners]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


You can play the avoid cards with the objective in your high command..however, you will still lose the points for that city. However, you won't get the city again as an objective. My opponent tells me that he still gets it as a defensive one, though.

So...Stalingrad is showing as an objective. I play Avoid Stalingrad. When time runs out, I lose the points for Stalingrad..then no longer get the city as an objective.

Other things I have noticed...You wont get Krasnador as an objective unless Rostov falls..so it gives you that long to gain the avoid points if you don't want to do the Caucaus at all. And Krasnador leads to the Poti and Grozny....so if you avoid Krasnador, you only have to worry about Astrakahn if you take Stalingrad.



By the way, strategic postion will not change unless you have lost enough victory points over the last 4 turns to average umm..4 I think...then there is only a percentage chance that it will change.

Cheers useful information. I have retreated this turn so I am hopeful that the strategic position will start to change.

[Bonners]

22nd October - The Russian Bear awakens


...and so it begins. The Russians launch the first probes of their offensive north of Stalingrad. I think Olivier has been keeping his forces well hidden from the frontlines, as at the moment it is only one tank corps and supporting units that begin to attack the Romanians. As they are not all the way forward that also means that I have the chance to retreat further this turn to avoid any breakthroughs and create time for the supporting German units to arrive.

With this attack I am not waiting around to see what develops - therefore all offensive operations around Stalingrad are abandoned and the great retreat to the west begins. As I shorten the line I also make the decision to send one of the panzer corps down to 17th army.

The reason for this is that the pressure from Armavir is mounting and the Russians are now going into all out offensive mode, breaking through and wiping out yet another infantry regiment.

I again retreat all along the line and the temporary stopping point is the Kuban river. I suspect the retreat is going to go all the way out of the Caucasus as well.

The other main issue I have is to try and create a strategic situation where I start to get defensive objectives. Therefore I need to keep retreating enough to give myself a chance of the strategic level going down each turn, otherwise I am going to keep on getting offensive objectives which will end the game sooner.

[Bonners]

24th October - the end is nigh

Unfortunately this game is rapidly drawing to a close, which is a real shame as both Olivier and myself would like a crack at the Russian winter offensive and it looks like I will be dismissed before that happens.

I currently have 54pps and will lose another 37 next turn when I have to play the ambition card again to avoid dismissal. On the basis that I will get five a turn I will not be able to afford to play the dismissal card again (not too sure what the cost will be) and with another objective due on the 26th October I will be down to zero prestige on the 28th October, which means I need to save up to play the ambition card again on the 1st November, which just isnt going to happen. So my failure to take Stalingrad is really starting to haunt me and has decided the game, with those 10 prestige points I would've been able to have held on for far longer - hopefully until I got defensive objectives when the strategic position changed. Even with the Grozny objective coming up I would probably have enough pps saved up to hold on at least until the Poti objective in December.

Not much fighting this turn, apart from the continued attack against the Romanians. Even with infantry divisions double stacked the Russians are slicing through the defences. Again the retreat continues to prevent any encirclements until German reinforcements arrive.

Even with the lack of an air force I think I am in a stronger strategic position than in the actual operation Uranus, as I have started to withdraw from Stalingrad and with the retreat I am gradually creating a reserve. In a couple of turns I will have 11th army and 4th panzer army off the front lines and able to reinforce where needed.

[Bonners]

26th October - Game over - dismissed by OKH

Really disappointing, but basically I have been dismissed by OKH for being at zero prestige for three turns. Last turn I played the ambition card which immediately increased my prestige to 1. This turn I lost one prestige by not taking Stavropol. The way I thought it worked was that I would go down to zero this turn (having ended the previous turn on one prestige) and the count to three turns until dismissal would've started again.

I dont suppose it makes that much difference, as I would've been dismissed in a couple of turns anyway as I would've had to play the ambition card on 1st November and wouldnt have had enough prestige to play it as I had 27 saved up and with a full three turns worth of prestige that would've only left me with 42 and the ambition card now costs 55pps.

So well played Olivier, out foxed me yet again, I just wish I could've managed to keep the game going until the Soviet winter offensive as I'd have liked to have seen how I did in a better defensive position (apart from in the air) that in the real operation Uranus.

I guess as the Germans Liquidsky's play is the only way to keep the game going if you dont manage to keep the offensive rolling - i.e. to start playing the avoid cards nice and early and save up your early prestige to that effect.

Right, off to do some final statistics, I wont do another map update as the final position hasn't changed since last turn.

[Bonners]

26th October - Final statistics

Right, here is a run down of most of the important final statistics. I think the two most telling ones are prestige points and the aircraft statistics. From about the end of August Olivier was successfully contesting the battle in the skies and from the end of September he basically had air superiority. From that stage onwards I didnt have the extra firepower that I needed to try and break through his lines. The most obvious example is in the battle of Stalingrad. On two occasions all but one of Olivier's troops retreated, panicked or were broken, maybe by having a bit of airpower in the assault it might have been just enough to have tipped the balance.

Trying to work out how to use the Luftwaffe successfully for longer is something I really need to work out.

The other thing is prestige, mine was never high enough. I missed out on too many objectives for too long so never built up a prestige cushion which would've enabled me to have pushed on a bit slower in the later stages. Conversely, Olivier was getting the prestige for all the objectives he was hitting and his main problem with prestige was playing the cards so much they were getting expensive[:D]

So, my play has improved enough that I can attack with the Axis, and attack successfully, at a slow pace; I now need to work out how to speed up the attack and when to speed up. Another telling point in the game was when I did advance at full pelt, Olivier picking the right moment to counter attack and wiping out one of my panzer divisions and the Slovak division; at that point it was really costly as I lost my mobility in the Caucasus and it also made me more cautious in the advance which enabled Olivier to build up effective defences when I did hit his lines.

obviously he took a risk by putting three tank corps into the Caucasus, but it really paid off as I couldnt afford to advance beyond a snails pace, knowing I would get hit by his tank corps and at that stage I was losing air superiority as well.

So, main things I've learnt form the loss:

1. I need to work out how to speed up the rate of advance in the early stages to make sure I dont hit the prestige brick wall.

2. Related to that, I need to work out how to maintain air superiority, at least until about mid to late September, that is essential to keeping the advance going.

3. Going the long way round to Rostov is too long a route, I need to work out how to assault cities.

4. Similarly with Stalingrad, I need a far better plan to take the city.

5. Keep a more careful eye on what Soviet forces are where and dont get caught out.

[LiquidSky]

Well you got further then I did in my last game. I only made it to early October before the bridge bombing bug bit the Bolsheviks.

At the time my entire army was on a defensive footing except for a panzer korp in the Caucaus heading for Astrakahn.

I did suspect in that game, though, that I was in for a world of trouble with prestige. I had only played the avoid Stalingrad card, and would have probably lost Poti and Grozny...and although I would like to think not...Astrakahn as well.

That would have put me in the 20's for prestige, and I would have been nickeled and dimed to death with the small minor objectives...

My current game is in late July. I have played Avoid Krasnador, and pulled my Axis minors up to guard the Don. (and Rostov) By not heading into the Caucaus, I give up a chance at an automatic victory, but will save myself from having to take Poti/Grozny

This does free a rather large German push for Stalingrad..which I hope to take on time.

Maybe I should go back to posting my AAR

[Bonners]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



Well you got further then I did in my last game. I only made it to early October before the bridge bombing bug bit the Bolsheviks.

At the time my entire army was on a defensive footing except for a panzer korp in the Caucaus heading for Astrakahn.

I did suspect in that game, though, that I was in for a world of trouble with prestige. I had only played the avoid Stalingrad card, and would have probably lost Poti and Grozny...and although I would like to think not...Astrakahn as well.

That would have put me in the 20's for prestige, and I would have been nickeled and dimed to death with the small minor objectives...

My current game is in late July. I have played Avoid Krasnador, and pulled my Axis minors up to guard the Don. (and Rostov) By not heading into the Caucaus, I give up a chance at an automatic victory, but will save myself from having to take Poti/Grozny

This does free a rather large German push for Stalingrad..which I hope to take on time.

Maybe I should go back to posting my AAR

I'm not quite sure what the solution is, hopefully your tactic of using the avoid cards will work, certainly would be interested to find out (hint, hint, AAR, hint hint[;)]). The thing is I like the extra excitement of the game played using the dismissal rule, yet at the moment I think it still needs some fine tuning. I'll fully admit that in this game Olivier was going over to the offensive, but I still had quite a lot of victory points, and could afford to lose a lot and still get a minor victory. Yet if we played without the dismissal rule my job would probably be too easy, as I would've suspended the attacks on Stalingrad far earlier and settled for a good defensive line around Krasnodar in the Caucasus - all a bit predictable and easy for the German player if he doesnt succeed in winning straight off. The dismissal rule makes you do things you dont want, which is what makes it more enjoyable and gives the game its overall flavour of the actual Case Blue - you cant be sensible and you do have to keep pushing for silly objectives at times.

In the game I had going along side this against Jon I was playing as the Soviets in Case Blue and again I was dismissed, just as my troops numbers had reached their low point and were very slowly starting to build up, the trouble being I had to retreat in the north and because of that I had to keep using the ambition card again to stop the dismissal.

Of course, if none of us play with the dismissal rule on, then Vic is never going to get any feedback to help with fine tuning it. For example, with the Trappenjagd scenarios starting in May, the dismissal rules have changed to prevent the Soviet player being dismissed if he doesnt take Kharkov and that has come from feedback from players.

Anyway, the important thing is that both me and Olivier have learnt a lot from the game and enjoyed it; I think we both would've liked to have played the winter offensive though as a counter point to the Uranus scenario which we've played through twice.

[Keunert]

thank you for the aar! compared to Oliviers game against me, he managed to inflict far more losses early on. this makes a soviet recovery harder.
maybe my defending skills were just awfull...

[olivier34]

[quote]ORIGINAL: Bonners

26th October - Final statistics

Trying to work out how to use the Luftwaffe successfully for longer is something I really need to work out.

I did not look at the fighters stats (screenshot), thinking that with FOW on them they were not accurate at all or I had the good informations. Only 165 german fighters left...that's something to consider.

The other thing is prestige, mine was never high enough. I missed out on too many objectives for too long so never built up a prestige cushion which would've enabled me to have pushed on a bit slower in the later stages. Conversely, Olivier was getting the prestige for all the objectives he was hitting and his main problem with prestige was playing the cards so much they were getting expensive[:D]

You need absolutly to build this "cushion of prestige points". Rostov seems hard to take in time but Voronezh and Millerowo can definitly be taken, maybe with the play of a more time card. After that...like Liquidsky said, play an avoid card at the good time... On my side, it has been really easy to get all those prestige points. Only once, I had to defend heavily Armavir to keep it and save 6 points.

So, my play has improved enough that I can attack with the Axis, and attack successfully, at a slow pace; I now need to work out how to speed up the attack and when to speed up.

We could analyse the first turns of the game. I see two places where I was expecting some axis moves that did not occur.

Another telling point in the game was when I did advance at full pelt, Olivier picking the right moment to counter attack and wiping out one of my panzer divisions and the Slovak division; at that point it was really costly as I lost my mobility in the Caucasus and it also made me more cautious in the advance which enabled Olivier to build up effective defences when I did hit his lines.
obviously he took a risk by putting three tank corps into the Caucasus, but it really paid off as I couldnt afford to advance beyond a snails pace, knowing I would get hit by his tank corps and at that stage I was losing air superiority as well.

I had decide to move half of my tank corps into the caucasus and I was pleased to see that I could fight you back there but I was fearing that you would rail a panzer corps from the Stalingrad area with some artillery. With this reinforcement you could have blown away my 51A and 1arm.

[olivier34]

Hi Keunert !
I have discover the soviet side of the case blue scenario and understand much more what happen in our past two games. This side is more difficult to play and I don't think that you have "lost" those two games. With the DC1 experience we had, it was kind of easy to pick up the axis side but definitly not the soviet one. In fact I have use all the experience and analyse you have done in those games to play the soviet. [:)].

[Keunert]

we should do a rerun sometimes. for now my mac crashed and i do not dare to install parallels again as i got the feeling the problems started with it...

[olivier34]

That would be great to play a rerun. Have you tried VMware Fusion instead of parallels ?

[BK6583]

Going the long way round to Rostov is too long a route, I need to work out how to assault cities

Brother if you figure that out let me know! I've read a lot about how CB [supposedly] favors the German player but urban terrain in my view favors the defender a bit too much. I've tried every combination of massive amounts of arty and air and attacks from 3 and 4 sides and it seems that as long as a defender maintains huge stacks in a Rostov or Stalingrad, you're just not going to take those hexes.

[LiquidSky]

Rostov is easy to take...just cross the river to the side of it. If the Russians stubbornly hold on to the city itself, cut it off from behind. Instant Russian prison camp.

Stalingrad, well...that is a different kettle of fish.

Last game I didn't even attack it once, as my already beat up army was in no shape to endure the kind of losses I expected to take. The game I am in now, I have every intention of taking the city, and will see what happens. I have several plans in mind to try.

[Bonners]

The problem with going behind the river is getting supply to your troops once across the river, as obviously the rail line runs through Rostov. I would've thought that to do that method it is fairly essential to have your JU52s inbound and a healthy supply of fighters in the south to sweep the Russian airforce from the skies.

The only player I've seen do it really successfully is when I played Isokron, who absolutely annihilated my forces, by crossing the river and then pushing on to surround all my Rostov forces. IIRC he maintained supply for the first couple of turns by flying JU52 missions.