Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Nearly 35,000 people have registered here...thats just one part of the wargaming market..they sold what 200,000 Panzer Corps..most games here are just a step up to a new hobby that all those who bought PC will love..niche?..yeah due to the price and not willing to take a risk..PC sold well because it was Panzer General with a face lift..people knew what they where getting for the money..no risk.

Now check out some Indie games..like some of those Japanese story games..that is a niche..and they aren't expensive (not my thing though). Infact many indie games you'd say are more niche than wargaming yet they sell and sell well at a decent price..now whack a $49.99 price tag on them..no sales..

warspite1

The number of people who have registered here at one time or other means little on its own - afterall, how many people in this debate alone have admitted they don't buy Matrix games, no longer play wargames or only buy in the sales etc.

For every game that sells a shed load (relatively) how many don't? Some people have mentioned risk but then dismiss it - easy when that person has not invested their own cash.

Maybe the arguments being made against Matrix are correct - they are purposely hording cash (from selling games too expensively) to pay back to shareholders while pretending we are in a niche market to keep prices high and simultaneously putting the company out of business in a few years because the few grognards left have shuffled off this mortal coil - but of course they won't care because by then they will have taken all the cash off suckers like us.

Maybe..... but no one has given me a scrap of evidence to suggest that is so.

[wodin]

They are doing fine yes..but is it bringing in new blood? Is it good customer service?

"They say if we only have to sell 50 games for the same profit as say 500 at a lower price"..but hey thats 450 new customers or 450 wargamers enjoying the game compared to the select 50 who either loved the game and knew it or had money to take a risk.

No one is saying Slitherine is awful. However like most publishers they aren't whiter than white or some virtue of the publishing industry. As some one mentioned that "reward" offered recently was veyr odd business practice and we never found out who it was that "attacked" Slitherine. They are a business about making money not a small cottage industry supplying a niche because they love it and it's like a small paying hobby where they make enough to get by.

Ask yourself why we don' get the more obscure wars and Battle in wargames? It isn't because the developers don't want to make them..it's because the publisher says no it wont sell do something popular instead otherwise we wont sell your game. Now if the high price was due to it being a wargame niche surely then these obscure battles\wars are what the niche is about.

However thats beside the point. The point is about the older games. Games no one is getting money from..and the ones who need it most (not Slitherine)the developers get nothing back anymore. Slitherine are doing fine without it so they don't care, yet they turn around and say they price games to help developers..again odd those old games that probably sell one or two copies a year certainly aren't helping the developer..now do that bundle deal and yes you'll certainly help the developers because they'll get some mor eincome from their hardwork.

[Nemo84]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Nemo can I ask what research you have that confirms these two comments please?

Simple observational evidence that in an age where supposedly dead niche genres such as space combat sims, roguelikes and complex strategy games can easily collect hundreds of thousands of dollars in kickstarters in mere days and top Steam sales charts, Matrix is still this obscure little publisher with games nearly nobody has ever heard of. Paradox was once in a similar position as Matrix is now, considered to be catering to a tiny niche with no room for expansion. They smartened up and embraced the future, and are now more successful than ever.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Regardless, how is Matrix reducing prices of all three year old games to $1.99 going to help anybody with an interest in these games being sold in 5 -10 years?

How many copies of these 10-year old games does Matrix sell annually? 10? 20? By reducing the price of these games, they would not only increase profits due to a massive increase in sales, they would also lower the entry price into the wargaming genre. It offers a cheap option for the mainstream gamers to try what this "niche" has to offer, and thus rope them into spending money on the expensive flagship titles. Consider it a gateway drug: you get them addicted to the cheap stuff before slowly pushing them into the real moneymakers. And Matrix no longer actively supports these games anyway, so the only costs to selling them at low price is server costs.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
How do you know the average gamer does not know about these sorts of games? In todays world where you can look up just about anything on the internet, you believe there is a whole army of people out there just itching to play wargames if only they knew of their existence?

Because apart from wargames I also play a lot of mainstream games and thus hang around mainstream gaming forums. And each time wargames are mentioned, these people are simply stunned to learn such games even exist. How can you know you like something if you haven't tried it? There are many people out there who might like wargames. But they will not try them because most people have limited time and don't take $60 risks when they can get $20 guarantees.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
No. The game subject matter and the gamers make this market niche. Ask all your work colleagues tomorrow if they are interested in joining you in a monster wargame about the Punic Wars and tell me how many looked at you like you were smoking crack?

Yet if I ask them tomorrow about a monster strategy game where they can maneuver around huge armies against a competent AI, manage supply lines without getting bogged down in endless micromanagement and see their Roman legion sack an enemy city in attractive 2D graphics? They would line up. They might not care much about the settings, but they will care about the gameplay. Of course if I then tell them this would cost 50% more than the new Rome Total War while being a pain in the ass to play, with a horrible 90's interface and being forced to spend 20 hours of painstakingly micromanaging supply routes down to individual carts before starting turn 1? Then they look at me like I'm smoking crack.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Could you expand on that please - I do not understand what is meant by this.

You and Matrix claim this will always remain a niche market and that the ideas about increasing sales and mainstream appeal presented here are useless. People like wodin and I claim the opposite. These discussions will continue until either Matrix performs the experiment or goes bust. They can use some of their older titles, which are no longer actively supported and likely barely sell anymore, so it won't even cost them anything. Once Matrix attempts these ideas in a non-halfhearted manner, they have relevant sales data to analyze and we can see who was right.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Where do these facts come from please? How do you know? How many? How do you know its price that puts them off?

Because they literally say so and proclaim this company insane for charging these prices. Because the evidence that sales and low prices are purely a boon to developers and publishers is overwhelming, as already linked in this thread. Simply go read the comments on that RPS article for an example.

For a recent example, Eador: Master of a Broken World is the graphics upgrade for Eador: Genesis, a deep and very complex strategy game. It is far deeper and more complex than the majority of games published by Matrix, and considered a niche game. Yet the original (a one-man project) was already a top seller on GoG, the sequel is currently selling very well on Steam. None of this would have happened had it been sold at $60 instead of $19.

[warspite1]

Well its been an interesting debate guys but unless there is anything new to say I guess we are going round in ever decreasing circles so probably time for me to duck out. I'm afraid phrases like:

By reducing the price of these games, they would not only increase profits due to a massive increase in sales

....just don't help. If for every industry - the simple answer was "Falling sales and reducing bottom line?" "Well don't worry for we have the answer - just decrease prices and attract thousands of new customers". If that was true then guess what? No company would ever go bust would it? Well assuming a) those customers existed and b) the drop in price and write off of stock actually didn't harm cashflow to the point where the company was unsustainable and/or had no cash to develop new product.

You and Matrix claim this will always remain a niche market and that the ideas about increasing sales and mainstream appeal presented here are useless.

Its never useless for a company to try and increase its market - I just do not think that is necessarily an easy thing to do - as I say, if it was, why doesn't every company just do it...whatever it is?

But the killer was your response about getting work colleagues to all jump at the chance to play a monster game based on the Punic Wars.

They would line up

Okay...sorry but I genuinely have no answer to that..[:)] "Sorry warspite? you want me to play a computer game based on what? .... er would really love to but I'm washing my hair that day mate...."

[Aurelian]

As Warspite says, it is never useless for a company to increase the market. To which I'll add "Provided they can make a sustainable income doing it."

And I can just imagine the following conversation:

"Want to play a computer game based on the Punic War?"

"What's a Punic War? What's a Punic anyway? What weapons do I get and can I level up?"

[wodin]

OK how many wargames here cover unknown battles or lesser known ones like the Punic War??? Not many..so that isn't a valid argument. A vast majority are WW2..why's that? Well I answered that further up...

Get someone into wargaming through WW2 games..they will soon get interested in other wargames.

[Rosseau]

Ironically, I had lost my copy of SSG's Battles in Italy. So looked last night at maybe buying it again. But not for $60...

[Scott_WAR]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

By reducing the price of these games, they would not only increase profits due to a massive increase in sales

If for every industry - the simple answer was "Falling sales and reducing bottom line?" "Well don't worry for we have the answer - just decrease prices and attract thousands of new customers". If that was true then guess what? No company would ever go bust would it? Well assuming a) those customers existed and b) the drop in price and write off of stock actually didn't harm cashflow to the point where the company was unsustainable and/or had no cash to develop new product.

How many companies that go out of business DONT drop their prices until too late. Far too many, thats why you see so many "going out of business" sales and liquidation sales. Maybe if those companies had dropped their prices to stay competitive they wouldn't have lost sales. Sound familiar?

And with a digital product,....stock isn't a concern. In fact the lack of having to keep stock is further reason to reduce prices. I'm not buying a boxed product,...why should I have to pay a price as if I were?

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Its never useless for a company to try and increase its market - I just do not think that is necessarily an easy thing to do - as I say, if it was, why doesn't every company just do it...whatever it is?

Well, we are talking about a method that is tried and true. While you don't agree,...and that's your right,....I don't see any other suggestions. The suggestion we have put forth is proven to work,.......doing nothing ensures it remains a niche market,...and will eventually die out.

[Nemo84]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

....just don't help. If for every industry - the simple answer was "Falling sales and reducing bottom line?" "Well don't worry for we have the answer - just decrease prices and attract thousands of new customers". If that was true then guess what? No company would ever go bust would it? Well assuming a) those customers existed and b) the drop in price and write off of stock actually didn't harm cashflow to the point where the company was unsustainable and/or had no cash to develop new product.

Unlike traditional industry, videogames have one advantage: once completed, they cost next to nothing to create additional copies. And I have already given plenty of examples that these customers exist, you just choose to ignore them.

But the killer was your response about getting work colleagues to all jump at the chance to play a monster game based on the Punic Wars.

They would line up

Okay...sorry but I genuinely have no answer to that..[:)] "Sorry warspite? you want me to play a computer game based on what? .... er would really love to but I'm washing my hair that day mate...."

I told you I would talk to them about the features of the game, not the window-dressing. People don't care whether that game is about the Punic Wars or WW2. They just care that it is a good game, with interesting features and fun deep gameplay.

[shunwick]

ORIGINAL: wodin

OK how many wargames here cover unknown battles or lesser known ones like the Punic War??? Not many..so that isn't a valid argument.

Just in case anyone is interested...

1st Punic War, v2.0, SPQR, 71 units, Carthage, 30 units, 101 total units, 97 three monthly turns, 264 BC, Carthage PO, PBEM yes, External Documentation yes, 50Km per hex, Legion/Army unit/formation scale, Mediterranean,Brian Topp scenario designer, ACOW 100, version 1.04, Convertable by ACOW, 1/12/2002 scenario creation date, Ancients & Medieval, Ist Punic War, Mediterranean, Europe, Historical, Pre-WWI, Graphics Mod no, External Equipment Database no, AI Mod no, 8 size index, very small, Valid yes, Released in TOAW III format Legacy Project Volume I available from Gamesquad download area.

2nd Punic War, v2.0, SPQR, 89 units, Carthage*, 59 units, 148 total units, 67 three monthly turns, 218 BC, Carthage PO, PBEM yes, External Documentation yes, 50Km per hex, Legion/Army unit/formation scale, Mediterranean,Brian Topp scenario designer, ACOW 100, version 1.04, Convertable by ACOW, 1/12/2002 scenario creation date, Ancients & Medieval, Ist Punic War, Mediterranean, Europe, Historical, Pre-WWI, Graphics Mod no, External Equipment Database no, AI Mod no, 12 size index, very small, Valid yes, Released in TOAW III format Legacy Project Volume I available from Gamesquad download area.

All data taken from the TOAW Scenario Catalogue available from Gamesquad TOAW forum.

Whatever the question the answer is TOAW. It is always TOAW.

Best wishes,
Steve

[rodney727]

I guess my experience is just the opposite of yours. If your two big "organizations " are Liberians and green bean growers than I agree with you. In my 20 plus years in retail I have met many people who are wargamers. Hell ever played axis&allies ? It's still huge in college today . It's simple and fun but yet a wargame. Yet not one major gamming company can make a computer game of this that's good. WITE IS A NITCHE market A&A is not. Both are wargames so your point is?

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: wodin

Small niche market doesn't wash with me..if the price is right games will sell...and sell well..

warspite1

What is the right price? For how long? What is "selling well?" Why do people think they know the numbers better than the personnel in a company that lives and breathes this stuff - AND have their money invested in it?

Grown men (and women) playing wargames. Do people really think we are not in a niche market? I have worked for two very, very big organisations across 30-years, I have come into contact with countless suppliers, customers etc over the years too. Do you know I have met only a very few that play other computer game types and a few more that are interested in military history - less than a dozen people total in all that time. However, I have met only TWO other people that are interested in computer/board wargames. Oh yes, we are in a niche market.

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Nearly 35,000 people have registered here...thats just one part of the wargaming market..they sold what 200,000 Panzer Corps..most games here are just a step up to a new hobby that all those who bought PC will love..niche?..yeah due to the price and not willing to take a risk..PC sold well because it was Panzer General with a face lift..people knew what they where getting for the money..no risk.

Yeah, but Panzer General was hardly a monocle game to begin with. Number of people willing to play bottom of the barrel "strategy games" like Panzer General is much larger than number of people interested in playing actual simulation games.

[wodin]

True but many games here are just a step up..and I'm sure most who bought PC would give them ago if the price was worth the risk..

[Erik Rutins]

Please see our reply here:

tm.asp?m=3312181

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: wodin

True but many games here are just a step up..and I'm sure most who bought PC would give them ago if the price was worth the risk..

I don't see the point of risking anything. To me a game either has a good demo that shows me that it's worth buying or it doesn't exist.

I got into the Close Combat series because of demos, I got into the Command Ops series because of demos, I got into TacOps because of a demo, I'll quite probably get Steam and Iron because of the demo, etc.

And getting people to play even a free monocle wargame like Armored Brigade is very hard.

[DBeves]

ORIGINAL: wodin

There are loads of brand new board wargames that come out at the same price or less than one of the high price titles here..and yet think of the production costs of a boardgame over a PC game a boardgame you get a box full of goodies yet you can't even get a printed manual these days with a PC wargame. Go check the price of some of the GMT titles. I have Bloody April here and the box weighs a ton with all the wargaming goodness thats stuffed in it yet it's just as much a "niche" as any game here.

Tim Stone in my opinion is dead on the money. No matter how good the products are from a company they are capable of doing other things wrong..to overlook it because you enjoy their products is just blind fanaticism.

Says someone who has never programmed a damn thing in their life. Its just paper - whats so special about that ? - why dont you try writing a game on a computer - come back in a year when you have failed to even learn enough of one language to make a start - and then make the same point. Creating a game for a computer is a compeletely different ball game - if you had the first idea what you were talking about you wouldnt have made the analogy.

[bairdlander2]

Interesting deal at Strategy First,pay $10 or whatever you want for Achtung Panzer Operation Star and 10% of proceeds go to charity,cant Matrix do something like this will old games?"Strategy First

10% of all proceeds from this sale will be donated to Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption.

At the Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption, we believe that we have a responsibility to be the voice of foster care adoption, so that every child finds a family. We exist to find homes for children who are waiting to be adopted from foster care in North America. In the process, we work to inform adults who may have misperceptions about foster care adoption that keep them from getting involved. Through the money we raise, we are able to provide free educational resources, promote awareness, assist policymakers and employers, and support adoption professionals and agencies throughout the United States and Canada to ensure that every child finds a forever home."

[Perturabo]

Achtung Panzer is an Ukrainian game, so they can probably afford selling it for that price - Ukrainian minimal wage is just 2$.

[pmelheck1]

The problem with a lot of these discussions is that some folks are only interested in their pocket book. If the company goes bankrupt they just simply don't care as long as they get their discount. A lot of games that are on matrix would never even get considered at other publishers. First person shooter skinned with WW2 skins where do i sign... A hex based, turned based game!!! Wargames are so dead and we will not have anything to do with them, but if you can get a shooter just let us know...

I understand many of our board member might be from communist countries but here in the west we need to make a profit to stay in business.

[ezzler]

I did just buy it.
Now the $5 pittance I paid is not making anyone rich.
No new game should be this cheap, obviously. But the present $24.99 matrix price means I've never even considered it before. Would I have sprung $10. Yep. But no more.
But..its not my thing at all and I'm regretting it already. But...it was so cheap i bought it. This argument about old games is a valid one.

Many times I've looked at the space game distant worlds, but to buy it plus the necessary two expansions is £63.97. And there's another one on the way, so say £95. The reviews seem to indicate its necessary to have all the expansions.
Its never going to happen.

Why aren't they bundled together by now? £35? £39? for game + expansions + tempt us to buy the new expansion at FP when its ready.