3rd Red Banner Slam Interactive DAR

[Mad Russian]

Due to orders delays and the engineer obstacle holding back our recon we will continue with the same orders we gave for turn 4.

We again have a 26 minute order cycle.

Good Hunting.

MR

[jack54]

Are the recon guys better at removing obstacles than other units? also can you construct obstacles during a scenario or is that done while making the map?

[Mad Russian]

Everyone removes obstacles at the same rate at this time.

Obstacles for the most part are created during scenario creation. There is some engineering that can be done during game play. You can build bridges during play and NATO can deliver mines with certain artillery units during game play.

The obstacle should have cleared in 30 minutes. We'll look and see why that didn't happen in this instance.

Good Hunting.

MR

[budd]

Doesn't look like the northern OH moved at all, I thought recon 2 was going to move around the Obstacles and continue down the road while recon 3 removed it. I'd like to speak to their commander this won't do.Time is short we have to move. TF1 hasn't moved much either, what do we have left 7+hours.

There isn't any map marker for the suspected enemy HQ's positions?Is there a command range display? Why is the 2/248 guards out of command range? radio's?

You know.....if this was WW2 this lack of progress would be dealt with...can you say differently

Good stuff....thx for doing this.

[budd]

Question

Is the AI scripted, will it play differently on a second play through of a scenario?

[GrumpyMel]

More of a WWII oriented player myself. I must say this looks really impressive though. If the A.I. is half-way decent this may go on my must buy list. Really love the level of detail you go into.

[budd]

^ what he said[:D]

[cbelva]

ORIGINAL: **budd**

Doesn't look like the northern OH moved at all, I thought recon 2 was going to move around the Obstacles and continue down the road while recon 3 removed it. I'd like to speak to their commander this won't do.Time is short we have to move. TF1 hasn't moved much either, what do we have left 7+hours.

If you are on the attack, time is not your friend. Also, if you don't plan your moves carefully, especially in tight terrain, you can create a real mess of a traffic jam. For the Soviets, they can only stack 30 subunits into a hex. If it is a transport and passenger, it counts as one as long as the passenger stays loaded. What you need to realize is this is a scenario that MR threw together. It has not been playtested or balanced. Even tho he put it together, he doesn't know how it will play out. That said, if he doesn't clear that road block out fast, he is going to have a mess on his hands up north

[cbelva]

ORIGINAL: **budd**

Question

Is the AI scripted, will it play differently on a second play through of a scenario?

No, the AI is not scripted. It tends to have a mind of its own. And it does not always do what it did before. This is one of the few AI that I have played against that actually attacks better than it defends. Even tho MR placed the AI forces on the map, I can almost guarantee you that they are not where he placed them. The AI has a tendency to move things around on you. I won't say that this is the best AI I have played against (it is just an AI), but it is pretty good and has frustrated me several times by doing the unexpected.

[Hexagon]

Interesting... a little question about obstacles, can you order move over them to infantry units??? leaving the transport and moving 1-2 hex to create a protection screen to the traffic jam in the obstacle hex???

Looks like AI is going to defend the last line... question now is WP forces can cross the river near Helglarn using the amphibian vehicles.

PD: i like see to a WWII title but maybe engine need add more details in the infantry units (number of soldiers for example) and other things... maybe for a 2nd engine version, maybe after the row of add-ons see a middle east title could be great specially if they add as add-ons things like Irak-Iran war or gulf war.

[CapnDarwin]

Hexagon,
No, infantry stay in hex with the transport unit. As for the AI, it looks at a factors to decide how to defend or attack. I would expect a counter attack or two to reclaim red VP locations.

[Mad Russian]

See a more detailed explanation of how the AI works in the, "About The Fighting" thread.

tm.asp?m=3313430&mpage=3

Good Hunting.

MR

[Hexagon]

I see... maybe this could be a interesting add in future, use the infantry units in certain situations as cover for vehicles... something like the skirmishers job in nap titles, doing advance control mission... this or at least made infantry dismoung when vehicles are stoped to prevent lose with a single missile transport and infantry unit.

Counter attacks... maybe is surprising dont see IA trying scout missions in the flanks... blind counterattack???

[CapnDarwin]

Hexagon,
You bring up a good point on those stalled units. They probably need to drop to screening while waiting for the engineers to clear the road. In many cases the AI will replan the route and go around the obstacles. In this case it is stuck between two rivers.

I have been surprised on a few occasions with the enemy popping up in an unlikely place. Leaves you scrambling to react. Not a good situation to be in.

[Mad Russian]

The issue has been corrected. There was an issue with the obstacle clearance. It is working as intended now.

@ Hexagon. We are all of 5 turns into the game. We only just found anything like a real enemy force. You are not going to see a counterattack this early into the game. We haven't taken anything of any value for it to counter attack us for yet.

Combat units don't unload every time their transport vehicles stop for a few minutes. That is not how real units respond on a battlefield. There is no threat here, the obstacle is expected to be cleared within minutes. Just sit tight and we'll be moving again in no time.

No need to correct something that's not broken.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Hexagon]

Sure??? because stay in a metal box in a road expose to air attacks or ambush attacks is not a good idea... infantry mission is do the dirty job (patrol flanks, cover units, help using arms...) no stay in the vehicle where they are blind and easy targets, in Vietnam i read that was oposite but because in Vietnam the antiarmor value in VC and NVA were not very high, in Europe with the number of tanks, AT missiles, air units (and we have here the specific air AT units) is other history, and we can add the greater number of arties, be in a BMP in a bombardement is bad as be on open, arty in WWIII is not the WWII arty.

I never in a tactical game leave infantry mounted in a vehicle when i dont know where is enemy is like leave units in a trafic jam in travel mode, is not the same move on an open road than find yourself stoped in a very expose situation.

I dont see ilogical dismount infantry at least when an unit is stoped automatically, maybe this could be an order called "activate patrol mode" that when is active made infantry dismount and enter in an abstract patrol model to increase recon value around unit.

[Mad Russian]

No, because getting everybody unloaded and reloaded into and out of vehicles takes time and deployment area.

Engineer obstacles are created for the sole purpose of delaying and channeling the enemies forces. They are to be built and then kept under observation and fire.

There are two types of engineer obstacles in the game so I'll address those. They are for the most part abstracted in the same way.

Obstacles. This includes everything from log cribs to road craters. They are an obstacle to movement. As such they are intended to slow down the enemy. That's all. Simply slow them down. Because all engineer obstacles are intended to be created to be under direct observation and fire. What that means is that they are watching the obstacle and when enemy forces drive up to it and are stopped from moving forward they bring down either direct fire or, more likely, artillery fire at the forces that have been stopped. To move up to the obstacle and get out of your vehicles would make the creators of the obstacle very happy. Because now you are out in the open with no cover when the artillery fire hits you.

If it was a vehicle ambush then the anti-vehicle weapons would fire on the enemy and if the enemy vehicles had to leave, to keep from getting hit, they would have to leave behind anyone that had gotten out of them. Or they could reload and stay in the kill zone longer. Either way getting out of your vehicles at every instance that the carriers are not moving forward is normally not a good idea and experienced troops won't do it. Infantry ride inside vehicles because it's safer than being out in the open. If you unload your infantry voluntarily you take away that protection.

Minefields. They too create a situation where the enemy unit is delayed. In addition to that, the minefield attacks each enemy unit that moves onto it until it is cleared. Again, it is to be created under observation and fire. So that the minefield attack is supported by direct or indirect fires on the location as well. Again, you do not get out of your vehicles. To do so would increase the casualties the unit would take.

That's why I wouldn't expect to see units that are held up by obstacles, minefields, traffic delays or any other reason other than they arrived where you told them to be to ever unload from their vehicles in the game.

In this DAR scenario some of these obstacles, minefields may not be covered by observation and fire, normally in my scenarios they would be. The very reason that armies have recon is to find these kinds of obstacles and clear them before the main forces arrive.

Your two best chances to stay alive on the modern battlefield (anything after WWI) are to stay hidden or stay moving.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Hexagon]

In a true tactical game you are right, i think in CC series for example but in a game where the small unit is a platoon in a 500m hex... the level of abstraction is enough to dont care about this, 500m is a big are to deploy infantry and leave vehicles on cover without leave the hex, i can asume lose a few minutes to mount again infantry if i can dismount it automatically to made these units less oneshoot for an AT unit.

Obstables are to slow the enemy advance but the other point is create bottlenecks and traps for enemy troops if is massed in a certain point, is bad be on this positions in vehicle or be out of vehicle but you cant negate that infantry survive is bigger on open where they can use his main advantage, dispersion, 10 guys inside a vehicle are a single target, 10 guys dismounted and 1 vehicle are 11 targets and a single AT weapon cant kill all them with a single shoot.

If i was human i leave spotters and 1 AT unit near obstacles specially if infantry cant dismount... i want know WTF are going to do the scout infantry like the one used in Bradley vehicles...

PD: maybe add a tactical order to mounted infantry units is interesting, autodismount, you lose a few minutes but you have units dismounted and you can increase recon value in the hex.

[CapnDarwin]

To add my 2 cents, there are a number of side issues with this particular road block. Normally the AI would attempt to route around the block. Hemmed in by the rivers basically leaves the force with prepping an amphibious run over the rivers or waiting for the engineers to clear the road. We are discussing right now if /how mechanized units stopped by obstacles or under fire should change posture and also dismount to fight. So what you see now may be changing in the near future.

Keep asking those questions and making observations. We are listening and looking for the odd bugs we have missed to this point. Helps us give you a better game down the road. [8D]

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

In a true tactical game you are right, i think in CC series for example but in a game where the small unit is a platoon in a 500m hex... the level of abstraction is enough to dont care about this, 500m is a big are to deploy infantry and leave vehicles on cover without leave the hex, i can asume lose a few minutes to mount again infantry if i can dismount it automatically to made these units less oneshoot for an AT unit.

While I agree that the game is abstract so is where you are in that 500m hex. And where that obstacle is in the hex. As you point out the obstacle would be set to create a movement hindrance and a bottleneck. You should assume that it was.

Obstables are to slow the enemy advance but the other point is create bottlenecks and traps for enemy troops if is massed in a certain point, is bad be on this positions in vehicle or be out of vehicle but you cant negate that infantry survive is bigger on open where they can use his main advantage, dispersion, 10 guys inside a vehicle are a single target, 10 guys dismounted and 1 vehicle are 11 targets and a single AT weapon cant kill all them with a single shoot.

I would agree that infantry chances are better at survival against antitank weapons firing at them. I didn't assume that would be the case. In fact, by sheer numbers alone tanks are one of fewest vehicle types on a battlefield. ATGM's can be countered in many ways. To hit a vehicle with artillery is extremely difficult under normal conditions using dumb munitions.

If you get to match the best weapons systems to the best target it is always going to be bad.

If i was human i leave spotters and 1 AT unit near obstacles specially if infantry cant dismount... i want know WTF are going to do the scout infantry like the one used in Bradley vehicles...

You don't know what kind of unit will come to that obstacle. As a commander you would put the obstacles under observation and fire with whatever you could afford to use. That would depend on what kind of unit you are commanding and what your mission is.

PD: maybe add a tactical order to mounted infantry units is interesting, autodismount, you lose a few minutes but you have units dismounted and you can increase recon value in the hex.

The order set will be expanded later. Auto dismount is in effect now for when infantry arrives at the order destination. Other situations could be considered.

Good Hunting.

MR