Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Your argument is sound as far as it goes, but in my view the Americans made the right choice (for fighters) when they dropped using cannons. That 20mm is still good for shooting up vehicles on the ground but in air combat, because of the lower muzzle velocity, the effective arc trajectory is rather short and the weapon is hard to aim in a dynamic situation like air to air combat. Having consistent aiming points makes the fighter pilot's job a little easier and .50's will do a lot of damage to any type of aircraft. I'll put the P-39 up front after I run out of P-40Es.

When I said "your argument" I was referring to Cap'n Sherwood. I don't think it's a good design choice to mix different guns with different aiming points. Maybe that's just me.

The US decision to keep to the 50cal was only acceptable in combat against japanese aircraft or German fighters.
The 20mm HS404 was a far superior weapon and 4 x 20mm much better than 6 x 50cal.
However it took a long time for the US to produce a combat worthy 20mm.

An experts opinion is at:
http://users.telenet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin ... un-ta.html

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The P-39 hits harder with that cannon, but the P-40 just seems to do better in dogfights. I don't know why that is.

Yes, the cannons hit harder but the down side is their slow rate of fire which makes it harder to blanket the target area with a hail of fire, and the small number of rounds carried. The other down side was the heavy weight of the cannon and ammo.

Japanese aircraft were so flammable that you did not need a cannon to down a large bomber. German aircraft were much tougher and a 20mm cannon would have helped shoot them down.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

The US decision to keep to the 50cal was only acceptable in combat against japanese aircraft or German fighters.

Or German bombers. Or German transport aircraft. Or Italian fighters. Or Italian bombers. Or Italian transport aircraft. Or Chinese fighters. Or North Korean aircraft. Or Russian fighters. Or all manner of ground targets. Or all manner of naval targets.

I read the chart. Interesting, but the numbers suggest that one of the most successful aircraft of the war-the Bf109-was underarmed by comparison to many of the US 0.50-armed aircraft. Also, if it was all about muzzle velocity and throw weight, wouldn't the Bristol Beaufighter have been a superlative fighter instead of an also-ran?

The 20mm HS404 was a far superior weapon and 4 x 20mm much better than 6 x 50cal.
However it took a long time for the US to produce a combat worthy 20mm.

Having an excellent 20mm cannon system would have been nice. However, the 0.50 round was an excellent intermediate-sized round for many purposes.

I think the question could be asked as to why it took so many others such a long time to come up with a similar 0.50 / 12.7mm cartridge and MG that surpassed the Browning M2 0.50. Why on Earth were Axis (and other Allied) airplane armaments still using rifle-caliber cartridges late in the war? Maybe because they didn't have good options for a reliable intermediate-sized caliber weapon?

Also-have you read any autobiographies of pilots that used some of the cannon systems? They went "Winchester" very quickly due to limited ammunition-moreso than the smaller ballistics.

Anyways, I'm not convinced that a P-47D2 could be considered dangerously undergunned or only suitable for use against Japanese aircraft or German fighters. It was a very good multi-role aircraft and very well armed for its intended purpose.

[witpqs]

I think you misinterpret. The Bf109 and other German fighters, for example, had later variants that were designed to go after heavier aircraft (mostly 4EB) with heavier and heavier armament. Why? Because they found the armament on the earlier models were not equal to the task of what they faced in combat. Even though they were already shooting down 4EB. They felt they needed to do it better (shoot down more, shoot them down faster, etc.).

It's not binary, it's not that .50cal can't shoot down heavier aircraft, it's how effective against heavier aircraft. The .50 is significantly better than the .30, but the .30 can also shoot down fighters and bombers. The .50 just does it better, depending on all the variables in a given situation. And a plane can fit more .30 ammo than .50, but they chose the .50 for US fighters. Why?

It's the balance of all the factors. If US fighters were facing significant numbers of heavier aircraft, then one of the major factors (the target mix) would have been different. A comparison similar to the .30cal vs .50cal would have existed with the .50cal vs 20mm provided that the US had made its 20mm cannon reliable enough. If the problem had been greater then more resources would have been applied to fixing the 20mm or a different approach taken (maybe even just producing the guns the British were using or something).

Adding: the P-47 was a great aircraft and a great multi-role aircraft. If facing 4EB, I believe we would have seen a variant with some or all 20mm.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I think you misinterpret. The Bf109 and other German fighters, for example, had later variants that were designed to go after heavier aircraft (mostly 4EB) with heavier and heavier armament. Why? Because they found the armament on the earlier models were not equal to the task of what they faced in combat. Even though they were already shooting down 4EB. They felt they needed to do it better (shoot down more, shoot them down faster, etc.).

It's not binary, it's not that .50cal can't shoot down heavier aircraft, it's how effective against heavier aircraft. The .50 is significantly better than the .30, but the .30 can also shoot down fighters and bombers. The .50 just does it better, depending on all the variables in a given situation. And a plane can fit more .30 ammo than .50, but they chose the .50 for US fighters. Why?

It's the balance of all the factors. If US fighters were facing significant numbers of heavier aircraft, then one of the major factors (the target mix) would have been different. A comparison similar to the .30cal vs .50cal would have existed with the .50cal vs 20mm provided that the US had made its 20mm cannon reliable enough. If the problem had been greater then more resources would have been applied to fixing the 20mm or a different approach taken (maybe even just producing the guns the British were using or something).

Adding: the P-47 was a great aircraft and a great multi-role aircraft. If facing 4EB, I believe we would have seen a variant with some or all 20mm.

Yes, I know that the upgunned Axis airplanes (like the FW190s) were done intentionally because of their primary raison d'etre. Most of my response was to frame the polemics of JeffK's argument about limited "acceptable" uses of the 0.50 round.

I also believe that the all-around excellence of the M2 Browning 0.50 weapon platform / cartridge made the improvement of the 20mm weapon platform / cartridge less important. Lots of a 'pretty good all-around' weapon is better than modest numbers of a 'much better sometimes, flawed sometimes' weapon: our procurement process / philosophy throughout much of the war.

I am not assuming that all 12.7mm weapons systems used by all combatants were as praiseworthy as the M2 / 0.50 was. So: if these were only so-so with other combatants, there would be an impetus to leapfrog them altogether to get to a 'better' 20mm platform.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood


And while I would agree that would be true in real life, in the game I doubt that there is any difference, but I do not know that since I had no input into the design.

Neither do I, but since they have both range and accuracy figures in the database for these weapons, it may very well be in the game.

[AU Tiger_MatrixForum]

7 December 1941
SNEAK ATTACK!!!!!!!!!

The first turn was surprising to me; if I didn’t know better I would have thought I was playing the AI. Skyros' attacks were surprising in that there were no surprises. But before I get into that, I want to mention that I wanted to use some of those nice screen shots of Tracker in my AAR, but after 2 hours of screwing with it trying to get it to run, I have run out of patience OPS points for this phase. I did determine that I needed Java 6, so downloaded it. Determined that I needed to point to it in the .BAT file, did that, but still no joy. I have neither the patience nor inclination to wade through 147 pages of that thread to try to figure it out, so maybe later……

According to our first turn HR, I was able to give orders to my air groups but was not able to move them, but even so the CAP did pretty well in breaking up attacks at PH, the damage was not too excessive, and barring follow on attacks, all ships should live to fight another day.

Morning Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 113 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 58
B5N2 Kate x 117
D3A1 Val x 101

Allied aircraft
P-36A Mohawk x 6
P-40B Warhawk x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 4 damaged
A6M2 Zero: 7 destroyed by flak
B5N2 Kate: 16 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 6 destroyed by flak
D3A1 Val: 29 damaged
D3A1 Val: 5 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
P-36A Mohawk: 3 destroyed, 2 damaged
P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
P-40B Warhawk: 7 destroyed on ground
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground
PBY-5 Catalina: 10 destroyed on ground
B-17D Fortress: 2 destroyed on ground
B-18A Bolo: 3 destroyed on ground
SBD-1 Dauntless: 3 destroyed on ground
R3D-2: 1 destroyed on ground
F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed on ground
A-20A Havoc: 2 destroyed on ground
O-47A: 1 destroyed on ground
SNJ-3 Texan: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires
CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1
BB California, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires
CL Honolulu, Bomb hits 1
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 3
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 6, on fire
CA San Francisco, Bomb hits 1
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1
AE Mauna Loa, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Allied ground losses:
15 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 27
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 64
Port hits 14
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 1


CAP engaged:
18th PG/19th PS with P-40B Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
18th PG/44th PS with P-40B Warhawk (0 airborne, 2 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 91 minutes
15th PG/45th PS with P-36A Mohawk (0 airborne, 2 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 54 minutes
15th PG/46th PS with P-36A Mohawk (0 airborne, 2 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 32340.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 115 minutes
15th PG/47th PS with P-40B Warhawk (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 8000
Raid is overhead

The PI had the best news for the Allies on the first day, but rumor has it that Gen. MacArthur is upset with the Clark Air Base commander for not seeking approval to get his birds in the air after receiving work of the PH attacks. But of course, the Gen. is making sure the glory has his name attached to it. The Clark commander had better watch his back in the future though.

Morning Air attack on Clark Field , at 79,76

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 46 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 64
G3M2 Nell x 36

Allied aircraft
P-35A x 18
P-40B Warhawk x 19
P-40E Warhawk x 27

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
G3M2 Nell: 5 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-35A: 2 destroyed
P-40B Warhawk: 2 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 3 destroyed
O-47A: 1 destroyed on ground

Airbase hits 12
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 22

Morning Air attack on Clark Field , at 79,76

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 20 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 16
Ki-48-Ib Lily x 27

Allied aircraft
P-35A x 10
P-40B Warhawk x 9
P-40E Warhawk x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-Ib Lily: 9 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-35A: 1 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed

Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 4

The B-17’s had all taken off on Naval Search orders before the attacks came in fortunately.

At Wake Island the Marines managed to get some planes into the air and are claiming 4 Nells killed, and the AA boys say they got another one. There was minimal damage on the ground, and some jittery civilian contractors are pitching in to help clean up the mess.

The Japanese are landing troops over the beaches in Malaysia at Kota Bharu as well as further north at Singora and Patani. The Malaysian command is rife with reports of a new commander for the region arriving in theater; allegedly an eccentric knight of the realm who travels with a merry troupe of minstrels.

Of Force Z and the uber cruiser Boise there has been no word……

[topeverest]

That was a long time coming!

That turn sucked...for the empire! Expect him to come back for another round. Your airframes at pearl prob cant hit KB, so I wouldn't the waste time trying. Spot the hell out of him. let me suggest 100% CAP and keep all slow ships in Pearl, as they cant outrun the KB if it stays. sending dd killer groups out and PT's to harass and potentially torpedo a CV is a great tactic early on if KB stays around.

Did Mersing occur?

Curious what you will do with the 2 CV's. Think seriously about turning back Gilberts or Rabaul. Rabaul / PM is strategic both sides early. let me also suggest supply to Manila with throw away AK's to extend the siege at bataan, and get all the ships / subs at Manila and DEI/Zingers in action.

[AU Tiger_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: topeverest

That was a long time coming!

That turn sucked...for the empire! Expect him to come back for another round. Your airframes at pearl prob cant hit KB, so I wouldn't the waste time trying. Spot the hell out of him. let me suggest 100% CAP and keep all slow ships in Pearl, as they cant outrun the KB if it stays. sending dd killer groups out and PT's to harass and potentially torpedo a CV is a great tactic early on if KB stays around.

Did Mersing occur?

Curious what you will do with the 2 CV's. Think seriously about turning back Gilberts or Rabaul. Rabaul / PM is strategic both sides early. let me also suggest supply to Manila with throw away AK's to extend the siege at bataan, and get all the ships / subs at Manila and DEI/Zingers in action.

Mersing did not occur. I did send some Dutch subs that were in the area to potential Malaysian landing beaches, and two of them were hit hard by ASW. One probably won't make it. Air attacks in Malaysia hit me pretty hard, fairly typically. The AK's that were in Hong Kong harbor were blasted also, but none have sunk. Yet.

Now that I think about it, I saw no sign of mKB..... Maybe it will show up in the coming Exodus.


I have some chores to knock out, then I will start working on the next turn. I don't know if I will get it completed today though.


NOTE: When I set up the CAP's at PH and Clark, I staggered each squadron to a different altitude, generally from 1000' up, with the Clark planes flying mostly higher than at Pearl. I don't know if it helped, but it sure didn't hurt.

[Bullwinkle58]

Tracker helps a lot.

On the off-chance you don't have the home site, it's https://sites.google.com/site/witptracker/

Getting Java to behave is the hardest part of the install. The site points to the Java site, which I think gives you the wrong Java now. Not sure. You need an ancient version. That's about as much as I know about Java.

Rather than read the whole Tracker sub-forum you can ask Floyd or Damien directly. They have helped hundreds get Tracker working. Tell them what you did, what you got, and take a screenshot if it got part-way loaded and stopped. I've never seen them unable ot get someone up and running who did what they asked.

You also need the Microsoft Visual C++ SP1 update. How to get it is in the Install instructions.

As the Allies in 1942 one of the best parts of Tracker is being able to see time-series data on bases, defense builds, logistic levels, etc. IT was invaluable to me as I tried to hold Singers for example. It's worth what it takes to get running.

[AU Tiger_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Tracker helps a lot.

On the off-chance you don't have the home site, it's https://sites.google.com/site/witptracker/

Getting Java to behave is the hardest part of the install. The site points to the Java site, which I think gives you the wrong Java now. Not sure. You need an ancient version. That's about as much as I know about Java.

Rather than read the whole Tracker sub-forum you can ask Floyd or Damien directly. They have helped hundreds get Tracker working. Tell them what you did, what you got, and take a screenshot if it got part-way loaded and stopped. I've never seen them unable ot get someone up and running who did what they asked.

You also need the Microsoft Visual C++ SP1 update. How to get it is in the Install instructions.

As the Allies in 1942 one of the best parts of Tracker is being able to see time-series data on bases, defense builds, logistic levels, etc. IT was invaluable to me as I tried to hold Singers for example. It's worth what it takes to get running.

I will do that. I have the correct Java and C++ on board. I can run Tracker with no error messages, it just "goes away" when I do.

[topeverest]

I cant make tracker work for the life of me, now that my Java conflicts. good luck!

[AU Tiger_MatrixForum]

Just a random thought:

The first full turn of a PBEM is much like ensuring every fastener on your car is tight. And then going back through to make sure you didn't miss one.


Just taking a break from setting patrol orders for 27 subs in Manila.......

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: topeverest

I cant make tracker work for the life of me, now that my Java conflicts. good luck!

There is nothing more important in life than WitP-AE. Go back to the older version of Java.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: AU Tiger

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Tracker helps a lot.

On the off-chance you don't have the home site, it's https://sites.google.com/site/witptracker/

Getting Java to behave is the hardest part of the install. The site points to the Java site, which I think gives you the wrong Java now. Not sure. You need an ancient version. That's about as much as I know about Java.

Rather than read the whole Tracker sub-forum you can ask Floyd or Damien directly. They have helped hundreds get Tracker working. Tell them what you did, what you got, and take a screenshot if it got part-way loaded and stopped. I've never seen them unable ot get someone up and running who did what they asked.

You also need the Microsoft Visual C++ SP1 update. How to get it is in the Install instructions.

As the Allies in 1942 one of the best parts of Tracker is being able to see time-series data on bases, defense builds, logistic levels, etc. IT was invaluable to me as I tried to hold Singers for example. It's worth what it takes to get running.

I will do that. I have the correct Java and C++ on board. I can run Tracker with no error messages, it just "goes away" when I do.

It's probably Java related; those guys can tell you. There is a slight chance you have RAM shortages. There's a No Map .bat file you can run that is a smaller footprint.

But most problems folks have had is the Java files (.jar?) pointing at the right path or being in the right folder hierarchy.

[AU Tiger_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: AU Tiger

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Tracker helps a lot.

On the off-chance you don't have the home site, it's https://sites.google.com/site/witptracker/

Getting Java to behave is the hardest part of the install. The site points to the Java site, which I think gives you the wrong Java now. Not sure. You need an ancient version. That's about as much as I know about Java.

Rather than read the whole Tracker sub-forum you can ask Floyd or Damien directly. They have helped hundreds get Tracker working. Tell them what you did, what you got, and take a screenshot if it got part-way loaded and stopped. I've never seen them unable ot get someone up and running who did what they asked.

You also need the Microsoft Visual C++ SP1 update. How to get it is in the Install instructions.

As the Allies in 1942 one of the best parts of Tracker is being able to see time-series data on bases, defense builds, logistic levels, etc. IT was invaluable to me as I tried to hold Singers for example. It's worth what it takes to get running.

I will do that. I have the correct Java and C++ on board. I can run Tracker with no error messages, it just "goes away" when I do.

It's probably Java related; those guys can tell you. There is a slight chance you have RAM shortages. There's a No Map .bat file you can run that is a smaller footprint.

But most problems folks have had is the Java files (.jar?) pointing at the right path or being in the right folder hierarchy.

Its probably the latter, I have beaucoup RAM.


Well, day 2 is off to Skyros. I am going to have little green blips dancing through my dreams tonight. Before, I mentioned that there was no sign of the mKB; I believe it is Southeast of the PI heading for the Celebes to interdict the PI refugees, but he won't see many there because most of them are still in Manila, although I gave orders for the faster ones to their way East to safety.

At Pearl, everything with a gun that can point up is in the water undocked. Even the damaged BB's and CA's are in task forces with the best AA DD's in port. If Skyros sticks around for another poke at Pearl I want to shoot down / damage as many as I can, because strategically I am willing to take some ship losses to kill some of his higher experience aviators. Besides, I can't see those old big BB's having any gainful employment for quite some time to come, Mahan be damned.

The B-17's have been bought out from Clark, and those that can fly have flown to Calcutta where they await their grounded comrades. I will do some pilot swapping and training as I can before I reintroduce these bad boys to the fray.

[AU Tiger_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: AU Tiger

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Tracker helps a lot.

On the off-chance you don't have the home site, it's https://sites.google.com/site/witptracker/

Getting Java to behave is the hardest part of the install. The site points to the Java site, which I think gives you the wrong Java now. Not sure. You need an ancient version. That's about as much as I know about Java.

Rather than read the whole Tracker sub-forum you can ask Floyd or Damien directly. They have helped hundreds get Tracker working. Tell them what you did, what you got, and take a screenshot if it got part-way loaded and stopped. I've never seen them unable ot get someone up and running who did what they asked.

You also need the Microsoft Visual C++ SP1 update. How to get it is in the Install instructions.

As the Allies in 1942 one of the best parts of Tracker is being able to see time-series data on bases, defense builds, logistic levels, etc. IT was invaluable to me as I tried to hold Singers for example. It's worth what it takes to get running.

I will do that. I have the correct Java and C++ on board. I can run Tracker with no error messages, it just "goes away" when I do.

It's probably Java related; those guys can tell you. There is a slight chance you have RAM shortages. There's a No Map .bat file you can run that is a smaller footprint.

But most problems folks have had is the Java files (.jar?) pointing at the right path or being in the right folder hierarchy.

Just as soon as I can Tracker to run, I am going to work on finding out what Intel Monkey thing won't run either.

[AU Tiger_MatrixForum]

As to this last turn, if even half of the Japanese losses for Dec. 7 are correct, Skyros had a bad day.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: AU Tiger

As to this last turn, if even half of the Japanese losses for Dec. 7 are correct, Skyros had a bad day.

Ouch. Where did that happen at?

[AU Tiger_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: AU Tiger

As to this last turn, if even half of the Japanese losses for Dec. 7 are correct, Skyros had a bad day.

Ouch. Where did that happen at?

At Pearl and the PI. The Wake pilots did pretty good too, but the second wave in the PI really got nailed.