Naval War Day-by-Day

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

R class battleships. Pic taken from HMS Royal Oak.

warspite1

[X(]

That is one absolutely cracking picture!!!!!

From the source, do you have the detail of which is which per chance? They look too similar to distinguish.

That is an epic picture, wow! Great find Aurelian!

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

R class battleships. Pic taken from HMS Royal Oak.

warspite1

[X(]

That is one absolutely cracking picture!!!!!

From the source, do you have the detail of which is which per chance? They look too similar to distinguish.

Unfortunately, no. http://warshipsimages.com/15171/r-class ... l-oak-1930

But, you can wear them. http://print.nmrn.org.uk/product/tshirt ... line-ahead

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

R class battleships. Pic taken from HMS Royal Oak.

warspite1

[X(]

That is one absolutely cracking picture!!!!!

From the source, do you have the detail of which is which per chance? They look too similar to distinguish.

That is an epic picture, wow! Great find Aurelian!

I have my moments

[Aurelian]

And, from the above source, the upgraded HMS Resolution

[Rosseau]

It's not Australian Beauties, but this thread is an excellent companion to the NWS series of naval games. Thanks.

[warspite1]

7th – 9th October 1939 (North Sea)

With the two Panzerschiffe having been ordered to commence operations, the OKM put in place an operation designed to a) provide the Royal Navy with something else to worry about (and thus take some pressure off the Deutschland and Graf Spee), and b) to hopefully draw the Home Fleet onto a fleet of bomber aircraft ready and waiting for the purpose.

On the 7th October the battlecruiser Gneisenau sailed from Kiel with the light cruiser Koln, escorted by nine destroyers. As hoped, the ships were spotted by a Coastal Command aircraft and, assuming a break-out into the Atlantic was on the cards, both the RAF and the Royal Navy went into action. The Home Fleet, consisting of the carrier Furious, the battleships Nelson and Rodney, the light cruiser Newcastle and their accompanying destroyers sailed from Scapa Flow, as did the Battlecruiser Squadron, consisting of the battlecruisers Hood and Repulse, the light cruisers Aurora and Sheffield and their destroyer screen. The plan was for these two forces to trap the German vessels in a pincer movement. Meanwhile the old battleship HMS Royal Oak was left behind, with two destroyers, to patrol around the Shetlands in case the Germans slipped past the main fleet.

The RN ships failed to find the Germans as they had turned around as per the plan. However, neither the RAF nor the Luftwaffe bombers sent out against the enemy fleets could cause any damage. The whole operation was distinctly unpleasant for both sides as the weather was appalling – so bad that ships were damaged.

The ships returned to base – although, in an incredibly lucky twist of fate – not to Scapa Flow. A Luftwaffe aircraft had flown over the fleet anchorage a couple of days previously and, fearing a bombing strike, the bulk of the ships sailed for Loch Ewe, Scotland. The only capital ship to return to Scapa Flow was the Royal Oak which had taken a battering by the weather and had been ordered to return there - which she did on the 11th. It was to prove a fateful decision….


The flagship of the Kriegsmarine in 1939: Gneisenau



Source:
www.naval-history.net
Chronology of the War at Sea 1939-45 (Jurgen Rohwer)

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Royal Sovereign-class Battleships

Royal Sovereign – Commissioned April 1916
Royal Oak – Commissioned May 1916
Revenge – Commissioned March 1916
Resolution – Commissioned December 1916
Ramillies – Commissioned May 1917

The Royal Sovereigns were a class of five battleships laid down between November 1913 and January 1914. They were originally to have numbered eight ships but two, Renown and Repulse, were re-designed as battlecruisers and a third, Resistance, was cancelled prior to being laid down.

Would the British have been better off if the ships that became Glorious, Courageous, and Furious had instead been built as battleships (say upgraded Queen Elizabeths)?
I can see the value of having a couple of ships like Renown/Repulse, but 5 is too many.
If they had been ordinary BBs instead, would the RN have had to build interwar CVs in lieu of converting the failed BCs?

[warspite1]

8th - 14th October 1939 (North Sea)

There is one U-boat story for October that we haven’t covered, and following hot on the heels of the loss of the Courageous almost one month earlier, it is another grim early episode for the Royal Navy….

Gunther Prien, aboard U-47, had already opened his account during the first month of the war, sinking three merchant ships between the 5th and 7th of September. For his second patrol he was to try and achieve something far more spectacular; Prien was going to try and breach the British defences at Scapa Flow (the Home Fleet’s anchorage in the Orkney Islands) and sink as many warships located there as possible. Two boats had attempted to do this in the First World War – neither were successful – but Donitz believed, from reconnaissance gathered, that such an attempt be worth undertaking once more. He tasked Gunther Prien with the job. Prien had as First Watch Officer, Englebert Endrass who was later to command his own U-boat with distinction and become a Knights Cross holder like his captain.

U-47 left Germany on her second patrol on the 8th October. While she was approaching Scapa Flow, the crew of the Royal Oak were clearing up the weather induced damage previously incurred (see Post 106). On the night of the 13th Prien carefully – and slowly - threaded his U-boat through the blockships that were designed to stop him entering Kirk Sound. Unfortunately the defences of Scapa Flow had been woefully neglected during the inter-war years and although the journey was difficult, it was possible, and just before 00:30hrs on the 14th October, the U-47 was inside the Royal Navy’s fleet anchorage.

One can only imagine Prien’s initial thoughts as he scanned the anchorage and found…… nothing. He sailed to the north of the basin and there, at last, he could make out two ships. He thought these were a Royal Sovereign-class battleship and a Renown-class battlecruiser. He was 50% right. What he was actually looking at behind the Royal Oak was the seaplane tender Pegasus.

Prien readied four torpedoes – two for Royal Oak and two for “Repulse”. One torpedo failed to launch and the second, aimed for “Repulse” missed as did one of those for the battleship. The second one slammed into Royal Oak but there was no visible sign of any damage to the ship and so Prien firstly launched his stern torpedo (which also missed) and then ordered three more torpedoes be fired. All three torpedoes found their target, and with four holes in her starboard side, the elderly battleship rolled over and sank in just thirteen minutes. Prien did not wait around and made as swift an exit as he could.

833 officers and men died out of a crew of 1,200. The death toll included Rear-Admiral Henry Blagrove, commander of the 2nd Battle Squadron. The toll would have likely been higher but for the sterling work done by the men of the little drifter Daisy II (John Gatt DSC) who worked relentlessly in the freezing cold to rescue as many survivors from the water that they could.

Prien and the U-47 returned to Germany on the 17th October to a rapturous welcome (both Raeder and Donitz were there in person to greet him) and an Iron Cross First Class for himself and a Second Class medal for the rest of the crew.

In terms of the strategic situation, the sinking of this elderly battleship meant little. In terms of shock value – hitting the Royal Navy in their own fleet anchorage - and the hit to morale, it was huge.

The Scapa Flow anchorage. The Royal Oak and the seaplane tender Pegasus were anchored in the northeast corner of the basin when Prien attacked. Prien had gained access through the incomplete defences of Kirk Sound (the northernmost channel on the map).




Gunther Prien. U-boat ace and winner of the Knight’s Cross with Oak Leaves. He sunk 31 ships totalling almost 200,000 GRT. He was killed in March 1941 when U-47 was sunk with all hands.



The Royal Oak lays where she sank in the early hours of 14th October 1939. She is an official war grave.



Sources:
Last Dawn (David Turner)
Hitler's U-boat War Volume I (Clay Blair)

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Royal Sovereign-class Battleships

Royal Sovereign – Commissioned April 1916
Royal Oak – Commissioned May 1916
Revenge – Commissioned March 1916
Resolution – Commissioned December 1916
Ramillies – Commissioned May 1917

The Royal Sovereigns were a class of five battleships laid down between November 1913 and January 1914. They were originally to have numbered eight ships but two, Renown and Repulse, were re-designed as battlecruisers and a third, Resistance, was cancelled prior to being laid down.

Would the British have been better off if the ships that became Glorious, Courageous, and Furious had instead been built as battleships (say upgraded Queen Elizabeths)?
I can see the value of having a couple of ships like Renown/Repulse, but 5 is too many.
If they had been ordinary BBs instead, would the RN have had to build interwar CVs in lieu of converting the failed BCs?

warspite1

That's complicated

The problem was that the three B/C's were built for a specific operation - I believe the only capital ships ever to have been so - and so they were not going to be built as BB. Conversion to BB would have been impractical once built I think (only so much you can change).

It would have been nice if two of Hood's sister were built and they were converted to CV as they were bigger.

[Aurelian]

The major flaw in the class was the deliberately reduced stability to give the ships a slow rolling motion to make gunnery easier. This made it almost impossible to update them. In addition, it was not economically possible to fit more powerful machinery later in their lives.

Unlike Queen Elizabeths, the Revenges were not given major reconstructions between the two World Wars. In fact, apart from some minor upgrades, they remained very much unchanged until the Second World War began. Partly this was because of the expense involved in giving them a thorough modernization; what money the Royal Navy received for this purpose was better spent on the Queen Elizabeths which, because of their higher speed and better adaptability, had retained better fighting value. Moreover, the Revenges were scheduled to be replaced by the new Lion-class capital ships as they came into service. However, the coming of the Second World War resulted in the cancellation of the Lions, leaving the Revenges to remain in service despite their limited value in the face of advances in naval technology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge-class_battleship

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Warspite [:-] Don't you know your suppose to quit your day job and slavishly work at this thread and give us the absolutly most detail epic report of the naval war! Damit man, I want to know round counts and fuel usage! [:@]

Here's one. HMS Hood, at 32kts, got 9 feet to the gallon.

[Jagdtiger14]

Warspite: Not to be negative within your awesome day by day (and think you for putting all this together if I have not already mentioned that to you)...but in post #95 you mention this RS class as "elegant"...maybe for 1916? In a previous thread somewhere you mention the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst as the "ugly sisters". The photos provided by Aurelian...well, yikes!...beauty must be in the beholder.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Warspite: Not to be negative within your awesome day by day (and think you for putting all this together if I have not already mentioned that to you)...but in post #95 you mention this RS class as "elegant"...maybe for 1916? In a previous thread somewhere you mention the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst as the "ugly sisters". The photos provided by Aurelian...well, yikes!...beauty must be in the beholder.

warspite1

Yes the reference to "elegant" was as designed - due in part to the fact that they (almost uniquely amongst capital ships at the time) had one funnel.

The "Ugly Sisters" reference has, so I believe, nothing to do with the looks of the Gneisenau-class. This is, from what I can see, simply wartime British humour. The two ships usually operated together and were a troublesome couple for a time (1939-42) until separated by Gneisenau's mine and bomb damage. The nickname therefore appears to have been out of a grudging regard for the ships. Difficult to see these two being described as properly ugly by any measure.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

The major flaw in the class was the deliberately reduced stability to give the ships a slow rolling motion to make gunnery easier. This made it almost impossible to update them. In addition, it was not economically possible to fit more powerful machinery later in their lives.

Unlike Queen Elizabeths, the Revenges were not given major reconstructions between the two World Wars. In fact, apart from some minor upgrades, they remained very much unchanged until the Second World War began. Partly this was because of the expense involved in giving them a thorough modernization; what money the Royal Navy received for this purpose was better spent on the Queen Elizabeths which, because of their higher speed and better adaptability, had retained better fighting value. Moreover, the Revenges were scheduled to be replaced by the new Lion-class capital ships as they came into service. However, the coming of the Second World War resulted in the cancellation of the Lions, leaving the Revenges to remain in service despite their limited value in the face of advances in naval technology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge-class_battleship

warspite1

The class were Royal Sovereign-class but I believe the name Revenge-class probably came about erroneously by the fact that Revenge was completed first.

[warspite1]

October 1939 (The North and South Atlantic – the surface raiders)

So we have covered the state of play for October as far as the U-boats are concerned, time to return to the Panzerschiffe. Having finally got permission from Berlin to commence operations, the Graf Spee opened her account with the sinking of the Clement on the 30th September (see Post 84). We shall start by following Graf Spee and then move on to Deutschland.

Having headed east, Graf Spee, by now sporting a rudimentary – but effective - disguise, was southeast of the Ascension Islands when she came across the 4,615 ton cargo vessel, Newton Beech (Captain Robinson). Robinson fell for the disguise (Graf Spee’s tower had been painted to look like a tripod and sported a French tricolour) and before a proper distress signal could be sent or secret papers destroyed, his ship was taken over. Stores of food were transferred from the Newton Beech and Langsdorff considered taking her as a prize.

Two days later Graf Spee intercepted the 4,200 ton Ashlea (Captain Pottinger). Again the disguise worked, and the merchant ship was boarded before a distress call was made, although at least her secret documents were destroyed. The crew of Ashlea was transferred to the Newton Beech and the Ashlea was sunk. Soon afterwards Langsdorff decided to sink Newton Beech too as her slow speed was causing him concern. The two merchant crews were taken on Graf Spee and the coup de grace delivered.

Travelling southwest, on the 10th October, Graf Spee’s next victim hove into view. She was the 8,300 ton cargo ship Huntsman (Captain Brown). Once again the Germans were able to capture important documents pertaining to British anti-raider precautions and codes. A prize crew transferred to Huntsman and she was ordered to sail to rendezvous with the Altmark, while Graf Spee hunted for her next victim.

The British were not convoying in the South Atlantic at this stage of the war and Graf Spee was reliant upon finding lone ships in the vast expanse of ocean. Her final success for the month did not come for another twelve days. Langsdorff in the meantime had another change of heart and, fearing the presence of large RN vessels (thanks to a large increase in wireless traffic) he decided to refuel from Altmark before making his next move. At the rendezvous all prisoners were transferred to Altmark and, after spending a few days transferring stores from Huntsman to both German ships, the British merchant ship was sunk. Time to move on.

Graf Spee was by now heading southeast and, on the 22nd October she came across the 5,300 ton Trevanion (Captain Edwards). Edwards ordered the distress signal be sent out and for confidential papers to be destroyed. 20mm rounds from the Panzerschiffe were meant to dissuade him of this notion, but Edwards refused to countermand the order and all vital documents were destroyed before the ship was overcome, the crew taken on board Graf Spee and Trevanion was sunk.

Graf Spee and Altmark met up again at the end of the month for further re-victualing, after which, Graf Spee headed southeast for the Indian Ocean.

While Langsdorff was dealing with Newton Beech on the 5th, Kapitan Wenneker was east of Bermuda intercepting the 5,044 ton merchant Stonegate (Captain Randall). A distress signal was sent, although this does not appear to have been picked up. The crew were removed, the British ship sunk and Deutschland then headed north.

Deutschland next came upon the 4,963 ton American merchant City of Flint. City of Flint had been one of the ships that come to the rescue of Athenia on the first day of the war. Wenneker believed that because she was carrying supplies for the UK he was justified in putting a prize crew aboard and ordered the ship to Murmansk (and thereafter to Germany). The US government protested strongly at this outrage and Hitler, still keen not to upset the US apple cart, ordered the ship be taken to neutral Norway instead. The Norwegians interned the prize crew and released the ship and her American crew to continue on to the UK.

Hitler was now concerned on two fronts. Firstly he was upset at the Norwegians (and no doubt seeds began to form in his mind that would ultimately lead to Weserubung (the invasion of Norway and Denmark)) and secondly he was concerned that Deutschland be sunk. Being superstitious, the idea that a ship bearing the name of the Fatherland be sunk horrified him. Hitler ordered Raeder to bring the Panzerschiff home.

Raeder did his best to “ignore” this order for as long as possible and on the 14th October, when 400 miles east of Newfoundland, Deutschland came across the 1,918 ton Norwegian vessel Lorentz W Hansen (Captain Hansen). By now, Raeder could not ignore his Fuhrer any longer and he ordered the Panzerschiffe to head back to Germany after what had been a thoroughly disappointing patrol.


The City of Flint. This neutral American vessel was involved in two episodes in the first few weeks of the war. She did not survive the war; she was torpedoed in the Atlantic in January 1943 by the U-boat U-575.


Next we will look at the Allied naval response to these German attacks.

Source:
The Real Cruel Sea (Richard Woodman)
The Price of Disobedience (Eric J Grove)

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

The major flaw in the class was the deliberately reduced stability to give the ships a slow rolling motion to make gunnery easier. This made it almost impossible to update them. In addition, it was not economically possible to fit more powerful machinery later in their lives.

Unlike Queen Elizabeths, the Revenges were not given major reconstructions between the two World Wars. In fact, apart from some minor upgrades, they remained very much unchanged until the Second World War began. Partly this was because of the expense involved in giving them a thorough modernization; what money the Royal Navy received for this purpose was better spent on the Queen Elizabeths which, because of their higher speed and better adaptability, had retained better fighting value. Moreover, the Revenges were scheduled to be replaced by the new Lion-class capital ships as they came into service. However, the coming of the Second World War resulted in the cancellation of the Lions, leaving the Revenges to remain in service despite their limited value in the face of advances in naval technology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge-class_battleship

warspite1

The class were Royal Sovereign-class but I believe the name Revenge-class probably came about erroneously by the fact that Revenge was completed first.

Ah, you're right. I've always used R class myself.

[warspite1]

October 1939 (The North and South Atlantic)

So while the surface raiders began to make their presence felt, what were the British and French doing about them? It must be remembered that the Allies were not even sure of the number of raiders at large, let alone their whereabouts, initially.

The first decision to be made was whether or not to initiate convoys in the South Atlantic. It was decided not to do so for two reasons: firstly the lack of escorts available for the task, and secondly the delays and disruption that convoying would cause. Imports into the UK were dramatically cut as a result of the North Atlantic convoys (and stopping these was considered as a result early in the war). So for now at least, each ship would have to take its chances while the Allied navies tried to get to grips with the problem.

The two navies worked together and formed Hunting Groups to try and find and then destroy the raiders. Note: The make-up of the groups vary from source to source (quelle surprise) and no doubt is in part due to the make-up changing over time. I have used the following which seems to be pretty accurate as far as I can tell (with the exception of a Force Y which appears in some sources).

Force F: North America and the West Indies – 2 x CA: Berwick and York
Force G: South America – 2 x CA: Cumberland and Exeter, 2 x CL: Ajax and Achilles
Force H: South Africa – 2 x CA: Sussex and Shropshire
Force I: India – 1 x CV: Eagle, 2 x CA: Cornwall and Dorsetshire
Force J: Aden – 1 x CV: Glorious, 1 x BB: Malaya
Force K: Sierra Leone – 1x CV: Ark Royal, 1 x BC: Renown, 1 x CL: Neptune
Force L: North Atlantic – 1 x CV: Furious, 1 x BC: Repulse
Force X: Brazil – Dakar – 1 x CV: Hermes, 1 x BB Strasbourg, 2 x CA: Algerie and Dupleix

In addition to these “Hunting Groups” the British deployed battleships (the Royal Sovereign-class in particular was ideal for this purpose) and cruisers on convoy escort duty in the North Atlantic. Meanwhile the French ordered Dunkerque and the light cruisers Georges Leygues and Montcalm to convoy protection duty once the presence of Deutschland was confirmed.

As can be seen, the presence of just one or more raiders was sufficient for the Allies to expend significant resource to try and locate them and to protect convoys. For all this effort, when battle did finally come, it was not the Allied navies that initiated it.

As will be seen later, one of the above Hunting Groups was central to the story of the Graf Spee….

Source:
The Price of Disobedience (Eric J Grove)
French Cruisers 1922-1956 (Jordan and Moulin)

[Pvt_Grunt]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

R class battleships. Pic taken from HMS Royal Oak.

I have a smaller version of that same picture in WARSHIPS from 1860 to the present by David Miller
Interestingly it shows a flag from the vessel the photo was taken from which is cropped out of the above version. Could it be the 5th vessel in the class?

Sorry about the poor quality scan... it is a tightly bound book and I dont like to break spines!


Edit - This is why it is a bad idea to think "I dont have to leave for work for 3 minutes, I've got time to scan those pages of the book" Especially with an HP scanner!

Edit2 - looking closer I can see it's not the same image, but a different one in the same series. I wonder if there are any more? It would have been quite a feat of photography to capture this image on a moving ship at sea so clearly given the technology of the time.

[warspite1]

17th – 18th October 1939 (North Sea Minelaying Operations)

Destroyers of the German surface fleet, carried out a number of audacious mine-laying operations along the East Coast of England between October 1939 and February 1940. These operations were to prove very successful in terms of enemy ships sunk. They caught the British entirely by surprise, and indeed when the Germans did suffer losses themselves – it was only in part thanks to the enemy…. But we get ahead of ourselves – that is much later in the story.

The first operation took place on the night of the 17th / 18th. Six destroyers – Karl Galster, Wilhelm Heidkamp, Hermann Kunne, Friedrich Eckoldt, Dieter von Roeder and Hans Ludemann – commanded by the KonterAdmiral Gunther Lutjens, sailed for the Humber Estuary. The destroyers laid their mines and, completely undetected, returned to Germany under the protection of Vice-Admiral’s Densch’s force of light cruisers and torpedo boats.

In the coming days seven ships were sunk (25,000 tons) and this convinced the Kriegsmarine that further attempts should be made.


KonterAdmiral Gunther Lutjens. He was the Commander of Torpedo Boats (FdT) at the time of this first minelaying operation, but replaced Vice-Admiral Densch as Commander of Reconnaissance Forces (BdA) four days later.




Lutjens was replaced by a new FdT and Commander of Destroyers (Zerstorer) (FdZ) Kapitan zur See Friedrich Bonte.This was part of a wider re-shuffle of the Kriegsmarine that also saw Admiral Hermann Boehm replaced by Admiral Wilhelm Marschall as Fleet Commander (Flottenchef). We shall be hearing a lot more from Marshall, Bonte and Lutjens in due course.

Wilhelm Marschall


Friedrich Bonte


Source:
The Gathering Storm (Geirr H Haarr)

[CarnageINC]

Its nice to see the timeline build up to the development for the key engagement at the River Plate in a few months. The Brits sure did do the right thing with Graf Spee but they also got lucky her captain was not a fighter, Her Majesties forces could of been hurt worse then they were.