A funny thing happened on the way to the forum

[LiquidSky]

I am pretty sure that once the game reaches Minor Victory for the allies...it is over. It is incredibly difficult for the Germans to generate negative victory points by attacking if the allies are not creating openings by moving forward.

It is very easy for the allies to reach Minor Victory. It's only 300 points.

A Major Victory...is possible. But not likely. The allies will have to take some chances, which will give the Axis opportunities. In other words..it will be a game. But one the allies will probably lose (end up with Minor or Draw). You also open up an opportunity for disaster.

A Decisive Victory? 2000 points? Average 20pts a turn for the entire game? The only way this is happening is if Germany collapses and you take Berlin. And you have to push the allies very hard, which makes it even harder to do....

So it really comes down to your viewpoint. If you think a minor victory is a victory..then it is easy for the allies to win.

If you think that you need to take half of Germany and maybe Berlin as well...then it is really hard for the allies to win.

The trick will be to balance it in such a way so that the risks/rewards seem equal(ish) through the whole war.

But on to the game....

I am poised to launch a major attack to gain casualty victory points. It will probably fail. In fact, I would be upset if it succeeds since it point to other flaws in the game. But I am going to try anyways. It is odd that the game has changed to the point where the allies are the defenders, and the axis are the attackers to determine victory.


Hmmm..its a raging thundershower here (strange for this climate) so I better wait for it to pass before I do my turn.

[LiquidSky]

Well..after two attacks using 9 panzer divisions..of which 5 of them were SS, my attack on a Canadian and British infantry division failed. But I did manage to lower the allied gain in VP's to 2. My attack was in the rain...with a couple allied reserve activations to wreck the odds. I did have close to 2-1 though, and I did rip the fort up.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



I am pretty sure that once the game reaches Minor Victory for the allies...it is over. It is incredibly difficult for the Germans to generate negative victory points by attacking if the allies are not creating openings by moving forward.

It is very easy for the allies to reach Minor Victory. It's only 300 points.

A Major Victory...is possible. But not likely. The allies will have to take some chances, which will give the Axis opportunities. In other words..it will be a game. But one the allies will probably lose (end up with Minor or Draw). You also open up an opportunity for disaster.

A Decisive Victory? 2000 points? Average 20pts a turn for the entire game? The only way this is happening is if Germany collapses and you take Berlin. And you have to push the allies very hard, which makes it even harder to do....

So it really comes down to your viewpoint. If you think a minor victory is a victory..then it is easy for the allies to win.

If you think that you need to take half of Germany and maybe Berlin as well...then it is really hard for the allies to win.

The trick will be to balance it in such a way so that the risks/rewards seem equal(ish) through the whole war.

As you know I am playing this game to win (unlike my game with QBall) and therefore I am employing what I believe is the best strategy to achieve that goal. With 2 Competent Players both playing to win an Allied Minor Victory is almost inevitable (yet you still have me worried). But, IMHO, an Allied Major Victory or an Allied Decisive Victory are almost impossible. I just don't see how the Allies can capture enough Cities quickly enough without also taking huge casualties. Of course, a German Victory of any type is also almost impossible. The best the German can hope for is a Draw if the Allied Player makes some mistakes.

Having said the above, I may have to eat my words if QBall pulls off a Major or Decisive Victory in our game. He is pressing my Germans hard and my shortage of vehicles is making my situation dire.

[LiquidSky]

Well..after attacking twice with infantry in an attempt to trick the allies into activating reserves prematurely (of limited success) I press on with 5 SS panzer divisions, the Panzer Lehr and 3 panzer divisions...(with 3 more in reserve)
All divisions seriously beefed up with Heavy Panzer this and that's. All in all almost 2800 tanks vrs 400.
Final Odds: 1.9 - 1

[LiquidSky]

Not to be undettered.....I pull the reserves forward into the line, and try again...

This time...SUCCESS! Despite the allies getting a reserve tank division into the battle.

Final victory tally is -4 vps for the turn! If I can keep this up for the entire game, I can get a draw.

[Harrybanana]

For me the scariest units I am seeing on the front lines are those Flak regiments. I tried ground attacking a stack of 3 panzers in clear terrain last turn. First with 200+ FBs "Unit" attacking for 3 to 4 days and then 100 FBs "interdicting" for 3 to 4 days. Well that was the plan anyway. However, most of the attacking aircraft were wiped out in the first 2 days of attacks. Needless to say I caused very little damage and the final interdiction value was "0".







How come the German Flak regiments get CVs of 10 and the British Flak regiment (also shown above) is only a 2?

[LiquidSky]

I did notice that. The non LW flak regiments only cost 10 admin points to remove from cities

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

I did notice that. The non LW flak regiments only cost 10 admin points to remove from cities

"Only cost 10 admin points". Giving credit where credit is due that means it cost you 70 Admin points to move out the 7 Flak regiments (4 shown above plus 3 others) that participated in this attack alone. In my game with QBall I never seem to have enough Admin points. Though of course now that you know my attacking days are done you can gain lots of Admin points by making a lot of units static.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


Well..after attacking twice with infantry in an attempt to trick the allies into activating reserves prematurely...

That is not all they did. Despite using no engineers and terrible odds they also are successfully reducing my fort levels. The below attack is from last turn. I didn't even think that was possible. Can forts be reduced by Howitzers alone?

[Harrybanana]

And a couple more attacks this turn. At least in the bottom attack he used 3 engineer battalions. But I am pretty sure I have made lots of attacks with the Allies using lots of engineers that have not been successful in reducing German forts even when I get good odds. Is there some advantage given to the Germans in this regard? Or are assault engineers more effective than combat engineers?

[Joel Billings]

Yes, IIRC, artillery can reduce entrenchments (I remember reading it in the rules somewhere). Can't answer the engineer question for sure, but don't think there is a difference. I assume it has to due with the number of engineer ground elements, but I could be wrong.

[LiquidSky]

To reduce a level 3 fort to a level 2 fort...you only have to do 11% damage. The forts max out at some number plus 10%...and a fort at level 2 (99%) is still a level 2 fort.

EDIT: There is about 30 engineer elements in a panzer division. That would mean 270 engineer squads attacking. Not counting any in a support unit, which is only around 30

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


To reduce a level 3 fort to a level 2 fort...you only have to do 11% damage. The forts max out at some number plus 10%...and a fort at level 2 (99%) is still a level 2 fort.

EDIT: There is about 30 engineer elements in a panzer division. That would mean 270 engineer squads attacking. Not counting any in a support unit, which is only around 30

It is not the attacks with your panzers that I am talking about, it is the attacks by your infantry. For example, the attack shown above by 3 infantry divisions supported by no engineers and 6 howitzers reducing my fort level from 3 to 2 which ended in final odds of 1:7.9. At the end of my last turn the fort level was 3(10%) and at the start of my turn my fort level was 2(10%); so your weak attack reduced the fort level by 100%, not just 11%. I am aware that heavy artillery can reduce fort levels, I just didn't realize that howitzers were that powerful.The same with the attack above that ended in 1:11.1 odds. This was followed up by another attack on the same hex (shown below) which reduced the fort level from 2 to 1. At the start of my turn the fort level was 1(6%). So each of these attacks at poor odds with little or no engineers is reducing my forts by 100% per attack. As the Allies I have made attacks including 5 or 6 combat engineer battalions and lots of artillery where the final odds were 1.5:1 and still failed to reduce a fort level. Perhaps it is just luck and if this happened only once I would not be concerned. But the fact it is happening every attack leads me to believe that either something is wrong (ie a bug) or else there is something I am just not understanding. Maybe I'll run some tests.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


To reduce a level 3 fort to a level 2 fort...you only have to do 11% damage. The forts max out at some number plus 10%...and a fort at level 2 (99%) is still a level 2 fort.

EDIT: There is about 30 engineer elements in a panzer division. That would mean 270 engineer squads attacking. Not counting any in a support unit, which is only around 30

It is not the attacks with your panzers that I am talking about, it is the attacks by your infantry. For example, the attack shown above by 3 infantry divisions supported by no engineers and 6 howitzers reducing my fort level from 3 to 2 which ended in final odds of 1:7.9. At the end of my last turn the fort level was 3(10%) and at the start of my turn my fort level was 2(10%); so your weak attack reduced the fort level by 100%, not just 11%.

..

sorry but your statement is wrong. Going from a fort level of 3.1 (ie 10% over the baseline) to 2.1 (ie 10% over the baseline) is a drop in value of close to 33% (1-(2/3)) not 100%. A 100% drop would mean the value of your fort was down to zero (ie has just lost 100% of its value)

[LiquidSky]

I thought that it just went by points...not by percentage. But to be honest, I've never really looked at forts before. I have noticed in game as either the Germans or the Allies...I have no trouble bringing fort levels down. I don't rely on them as much as I do terrain for defence.

I didn't notice that the infantry attacks ripped fort levels down...I was only watching for reserve activations. I was trying to suck them in so I wouldn't have to face them with my real attacks later. It is curious as have only the pioneers attached to the infantry divisions. I wonder how many that is....quick check...be right back..


Hmm...the TOE calls for 36 pioneer squads. I know the smallest attack I did was three divisions...so that is still 100 engineer squads.

Well..assuming I was at full strength. Which is doubtful.

[LiquidSky]

Okay..I consulted the tome of infinite knowledge. On page 125 Rule 15.3.2.6 FORT LEVEL REDUCTION IN COMBAT it states:

Blah blah...blah...more blah. Oh wait...attacking force contains engineer ground elements.

Okay...I have them....about 100 of them.

Fort level reduction can be fractional..in 2% increments. So it does treat them like points. 50 points drops a level.

Engineer values are divided by the fort level. And is not divided in a deliberate attack.

Well..it was a very deliberate attack..I deliberated all night before I attacked.

If the odds are between 1-1 and 1-1.99 there will be *EXTRA* reduction not requiring engineers to occur. (but they make it easier)

Well...my odds weren't...but that just means I don't get the extra reduction.

Hmm..it doesn't really say what an engineer value is...so it may depend on the actual squads.

Time to peer deeply into the editor. Nothing there.

Not sure if they mean the construction value. If it does..then the engineers have about a 72 value total for 100 squads.

72 divided by level 3 would be 24. Which suggests a 24% chance to reduce a fort 1 level? Or does it reduce it 48% using 24 points?

Or am I completely out to lunch?

[Joel Billings]

I don't think construction value is the factor used, but I don't know what it is for sure. I think this is an area where there is a fairly large luck component in determining whether a fort level drops a lot, but engineer squads are the key factor. I think the bonus is from between 1-1 and 1.99-1 (not 1-1.99). At 2 to 1 the forts are destroyed because the defender retreats.

[Harrybanana]

Well I'm just going by my previous experience as the Allies. It seems to me that it was always unlikely to reduce a fort level unless you either had lots of engineers or good odds (1:1 or better). However, I just ran some tests and was surprised at how easy it now is to reduce fort levels. For example the attack below where a poor odds attack with just 3 engineer units and some heavy artillery reduced the fort level from 3 to 1. So either something has changed in a recent update of the game or my recollected experience is wrong. I believe it is the former.

Also didn't there use to be a number on the combat report telling you what your engineer value was in the combat?

[Joel Billings]

Is your recollection from WitE and WitW, or just from WitW? IIRC WitE had something about engineers in the combat display, but I think it was removed in WitW and it is not mentioned in the manual. AFAIK, there have been no changes in this area since release.

Gary was able to confirm that the manual is wrong in this case, but not due to any changes made since release as there have been none that we know of. Basically there are two ways engineers can reduce forts. As the battle is underway but before the final odds are calculated, the engineer squads are totaled up (engineer tanks and minesweeper tanks count as two), and they have a chance of reducing the fort level. From the basic formula Gary related to me, it sounds like it would take on average around 250 engineer squads on their own to reduce a fort by 1 full fortification level (50 fort points). Artillery can also reduce the fort level, but it’s hard to say exactly how much they are likely to reduce forts other than to say that heavy artillery/heavy mortars will do better at it. Once the combat odds are calculated, if the odds are between 1.5 to 1 and 1.99 to 1, then the fort level is reduced by 1 full level (50 fort points) and can be reduced further by the engineer squads (but only ½ as much as they do during the combat). If the odds are between 1 to 1 and 1.5 to 1 then the engineers get another chance (but only ¼ as much as during the combat). There is some randomness in the engineer values thrown in to avoid truncations, and it looks like they reduce forts in 10 fort point increments (that is they reduce fort levels by 20% increments, so from 3/10% to 2/90% or 2/70%, etc.). This 10 fort point increments is not true for artillery.

That’s how Gary understands the code to work. So it takes 1-2 battalions of engineers to reduce a fort by about 20% of a fort level. Most divisions have an intrinsic battalion of engineers.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Is your recollection from WitE and WitW, or just from WitW? IIRC WitE had something about engineers in the combat display, but I think it was removed in WitW and it is not mentioned in the manual. AFAIK, there have been no changes in this area since release.

It was in both WitE and WitW. Below is a screenshot from my AAR "Decisively beating the AI". I believe it is displaying that my Engineers have a 10 Value. While I was never quite sure what this number meant, it was useful as a guide to how strong the Engineers were.

EDIT: I haven't seen this displayed for a while, so obviously something has been changed since release.