Low CAP vs High SWEEPS test #1

[Alfred]

If you go through old posts of mine on pilot training you will find I, contrary to the general "wisdom" have never been in favour of using the rest setting.

I see no benefit in using the rest setting when:

1.  the air unit has 4 aircraft in reserve

2.  the pilot roster is 133% of TOE

3.  the range set does not exceed normal range

4.  I have adequate aviation support

Occasionally a unit may need to be stood down but this is better than operating regularly at reduced capacity.

Alfred

Edit:

5. the altitude is less than 75% of the maximum altitude possible for the aircraft model

[Lowpe]

I am curious about using Rest in combat (Sweep vs CAP) situations. I think there is a place for it.

No Rest in training situations, is as Alfred has pointed out, I think well understood by most.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

If you go through old posts of mine on pilot training you will find I, contrary to the general "wisdom" have never been in favour of using the rest setting.

I see no benefit in using the rest setting when:

1.  the air unit has 4 aircraft in reserve

2.  the pilot roster is 133% of TOE

3.  the range set does not exceed normal range

4.  I have adequate aviation support

Occasionally a unit may need to be stood down but this is better than operating regularly at reduced capacity.

Alfred

Edit:

5. the altitude is less than 75% of the maximum altitude possible for the aircraft model

Alfred said it far more succinctly than I did.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
There's no randomness in the settings. If a unit does something I don't like or didn't think it was supposed to do, I go look at it... and there's always a reason it did what it did. Like range settings I did not intend, but were still set a certain way. Rest means rest. The de facto rest that Alfred and I have been yammering about means de facto rest. To get anecdotal, I've played 5,000 turns and never seen it vary.

Glad to hear you don't see any. Maybe I see it due to memory leak. I do. You don't. As I stated: YMMV.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
There's no randomness in the settings. If a unit does something I don't like or didn't think it was supposed to do, I go look at it... and there's always a reason it did what it did. Like range settings I did not intend, but were still set a certain way. Rest means rest. The de facto rest that Alfred and I have been yammering about means de facto rest. To get anecdotal, I've played 5,000 turns and never seen it vary.

Glad to hear you don't see any. Maybe I see it due to memory leak. I do. You don't. As I stated: YMMV.

If he isn't using the rest setting percent, how in the world is he going to see it?[&:]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I am curious about using Rest in combat (Sweep vs CAP) situations. I think there is a place for it.

No Rest in training situations, is as Alfred has pointed out, I think well understood by most.

+1

I completely agree. I'm starting to use the rest setting to add to some tests. I've noticed a few things but want to keep going before commenting on what might be happening.

I think the randomness Pax is referring to though could be a leader influence over a group in a certain situation in combat. Aggressiveness specifically.

[Alfred]

A pilot who does not fly a mission does not accrue fatigue and is therefore de facto "resting".
 
Assume an air unit with a 133% of TOE pilot roster with no "rest" level set.  Each turn the AI will excuse from flying the 33% most tired pilots (and if their fatigue level is above a threshold they are actually made "inactive").  By not flying a mission the excused pilots get an opportunity to rest.
 
Stand down an entire air unit.  No "rest" level is available to be chosen by the player.  The entire unit is told to do nothing and so the pilots get an opportunity to rest.
 
So it is not whether they are formally at rest that matters re accruing/removing fatigue but whether they fly or do not fly a mission.
 
Alfred
 
 

[obvert]

Yep. I get all of that. The questions I have are about rest settings and what they mean for a group of pilots (without extra pilots, so to see how rest settings actually operate at 1 to 1 pilot/plane) in combat situations:

1. If set to fly CAP x% and rest y% at zero hex range (no escort) do the pilots actually rest should a strike arrive? Or do all fly regardless of rest settings?

2. If set to fly CAP x% and without a rest % set, at zero hex range (no escort) do some pilots still rest should a strike arrive? Or do they all fly?

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: obvert

2. If set to fly CAP x% and without a rest % set, at zero hex range (no escort) do some pilots still rest should a strike arrive? Or do they all fly?

According to the manual they all attempt to intercept, following the 1/3rd rule.

I am a little more curious than you...What I am interested in is the Rest % done once, at the beginning of the day or twice at the beginning of each day air combat phase or applied for each interception with the latter what I am really curious about.

For example my CAP settings is 30/30(CAP/Rest), Range 0. So If I have a 100 plane squadron 30 are on active CAP (with 1/3 of the 30 actually airborne), while 30 planes have been stood down for rest. Now if a raid happens, then 40 more planes are scrambled, but there are still 30 stood down planes.

Now assume a second raid happens, but we lost 10 planes. 90 Plane squadron, 27 CAP (1/3rd in the air), 27 stood down for rest -- in effect you are moving 3 fighters from rest into operation to face subsequent air raids?

Or does the 30 planes on rest, rest all day no matter what is happening.[&:]

You can see I am not interested in using rest as a training tool. I am not talking about training. I am interested in countering wave, after wave of attacks. And it is in this kind of circumstance that I think the Rest percentage has a definite beneficial effect on the defender.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I am curious about using Rest in combat (Sweep vs CAP) situations. I think there is a place for it.

No Rest in training situations, is as Alfred has pointed out, I think well understood by most.

+1

I completely agree. I'm starting to use the rest setting to add to some tests. I've noticed a few things but want to keep going before commenting on what might be happening.

I think the randomness Pax is referring to though could be a leader influence over a group in a certain situation in combat. Aggressiveness specifically.

Yes, I've convinced myself in many situations that it is the Leader Agressiveness. But I've also had enough cases where the Leader Aggression was in the 30's where that is harder to say. BUT, is it Leader or memory leak or just flat out random or even a Aggression=30 would have probability? Who knows?

As I stated up front: I believe and use exactly what Alfred posted for exactly his reasons. That fact that it doesn't work 100% of the time doesn't change the fact that it works 99% of the time. ;)While the "why" is interesting to me, I'm not really hung up on it. This is a "Gary" game after all.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

A pilot who does not fly a mission does not accrue fatigue and is therefore de facto "resting".

Assume an air unit with a 133% of TOE pilot roster with no "rest" level set.  Each turn the AI will excuse from flying the 33% most tired pilots (and if their fatigue level is above a threshold they are actually made "inactive").  By not flying a mission the excused pilots get an opportunity to rest.

Stand down an entire air unit.  No "rest" level is available to be chosen by the player.  The entire unit is told to do nothing and so the pilots get an opportunity to rest.

So it is not whether they are formally at rest that matters re accruing/removing fatigue but whether they fly or do not fly a mission.

Alfred

This tied to your earlier post is very much what I do (again for exactly the reasons you state) for all groups in active combat areas.
I use the rest states on airgroups in rear or non-active combat areas. My experience is that I have lower ops losses when I do because frankly, I cannot take the time to look at every group every turn.
In combat areas, I do check them every turn and will stand down the entire group as needed.

[obvert]

I use rest in combat areas depending on frequency of strikes/sweeps, quality of opponent, time in game, service rating of airframes and daily checking of group fatigue/airframe damage or repairs.

This is something I'm particular about. I check a lot, and I don't let pilots go into combat above 30 fatigue or planes above 25 damage, usually.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: obvert

2. If set to fly CAP x% and without a rest % set, at zero hex range (no escort) do some pilots still rest should a strike arrive? Or do they all fly?

According to the manual they all attempt to intercept, following the 1/3rd rule.

I am a little more curious than you...What I am interested in is the Rest % done once, at the beginning of the day or twice at the beginning of each day air combat phase or applied for each interception with the latter what I am really curious about.

For example my CAP settings is 30/30(CAP/Rest), Range 0. So If I have a 100 plane squadron 30 are on active CAP (with 1/3 of the 30 actually airborne), while 30 planes have been stood down for rest. Now if a raid happens, then 40 more planes are scrambled, but there are still 30 stood down planes.

Now assume a second raid happens, but we lost 10 planes. 90 Plane squadron, 27 CAP (1/3rd in the air), 27 stood down for rest -- in effect you are moving 3 fighters from rest into operation to face subsequent air raids?

Or does the 30 planes on rest, rest all day no matter what is happening.[&:]

You can see I am not interested in using rest as a training tool. I am not talking about training. I am interested in countering wave, after wave of attacks. And it is in this kind of circumstance that I think the Rest percentage has a definite beneficial effect on the defender.

Um... no. If you have 100 planes in the unit and 30% are set to CAP, you will only see 30 planes on CAP at the most. That's it. There is no wiggling or jostling or randomness here. It's 30% because you set 30%. I know this because I usually set 80% CAP (with no rest, as per my usual), and with the USAAF 25-plane units it's really, really easy to see that only 20 of them ever come up into the air.

RE: Obvert's #1 - the pilots not set to CAP will be resting. x% will fly CAP, y% will rest, and z% (where z = 100 - x - y) will also rest because they weren't assigned a mission that day.

[Lowpe]

Ok, Lok, explain the below to me, please.[;)]

This is land based air coverage over a port/runway.



Pax feel free to chime in about your randomness...these are creme de la creme pilots and leader with high experience.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Ok, Lok, explain the below to me, please.[;)]

This is land based air coverage over a port/runway.


Pax feel free to chime in about your randomness...these are creme de la creme pilots and leader with high experience.

This is the kind of stuff I've been seeing too. I haven't gotten enough tested, just ran a few pre-tests to see what I should be looking at. I'm going to try CAP/rest 50/50, 50/20 and 50/0 all at range zero. That should reveal a lot. Should have something by tomorrow.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Ok, Lok, explain the below to me, please.[;)]

This is land based air coverage over a port/runway.



Pax feel free to chime in about your randomness...these are creme de la creme pilots and leader with high experience.

I've never, ever seen that happen. Screenshot of the unit? I believe you, but that doesn't happen in my games.

The 3 in the air + 10 on standby doesn't even equal 40% of 42.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Ok, Lok, explain the below to me, please.[;)]

This is land based air coverage over a port/runway.



Pax feel free to chime in about your randomness...these are creme de la creme pilots and leader with high experience.

This is typical of what I will see, and I 've been seeing it since release so nothing new. Not all the time, but every few turns I will see something exactly like this.

No surprise to me here at all.

As I've said, when I look into the leaders sometimes I convince myself it is leader aggression. Other times, I'm not sure what it is.

[Lowpe]

There are more things in heaven and earth, Lok,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. [:)]

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
As I've said, when I look into the leaders sometimes I convince myself it is leader aggression. Other times, I'm not sure what it is.

Sometimes, I think it may have to do with the number of incoming attacks. The above picture squadron had a long, long day.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
As I've said, when I look into the leaders sometimes I convince myself it is leader aggression. Other times, I'm not sure what it is.

Sometimes, I think it may have to do with the number of incoming attacks. The above picture squadron had a long, long day.

I have little doubt that is true ... what else there is, I can only speculate.