UV 2.30 patch is now in test

[Mr.Frag]

The moral of this "training base" issue is to not over extend yourself and offer up a training base to the enemy for this purpose.

If you can't defend it (Gili Gili comes to mind as the most famous of these), don't take it in the first place. If you do not have AA units to pop on the spot to make training runs somewhat costly and some form of LR/CAP to feed on the training pilots, leave it be.

I have no problem with training like this as it is pretty much as close to real world as you get. As someone who went the private pilot path, I can tell you that every little circuit around the airport builds skills. Going off to bomb stationary rocks that happen to be nearby is perfectly valid.

The concern I have is that skill gains vs survival will NOT balance out which means pilots will DIE before getting enough skill to NOT DIE

Having had both F4F-4 & F4F-3 airgroups on Lexington & Yorktown both upgrade and shuffle in a pile of average 30 skill pilots while I was out at sea COST me almost 30 aircraft that very turn. I'm glad they have disabled this upgrade while at sea now, cause this happening in the middle of a patrol forces you to fly these suicidal newbies. It adds another level of micro management that the game can do without, having to baby sit each squadron just in case new pilots show up so you do not get mass graves that following turn.

[Nikademus]

Originally posted by Kid
I don't agree with you on this point. I spent 10 years flying in P-3s and we had various training missions. Some of them were just taking off circling the airfield landing and taking off again (touch-n-go). Any time you spend in the air gains you some kind of experience. Take those milk runs for example. The crews gain coordination experience, navigation experience, bomb practice (against a real target), communications experience, flying in formation, etc. Also, during some of these flight things break and create emergency situations that the crew has to handle giving them emergency procedure experience. The list goes on.

Rick

Hi Rick

I agree that there would be 'some' boost in training via these runs but my concern is that the exp gain may be too easy to obtain over too short a period of time

Let me clarify what I mean by "milk run" as well.

I'm talking about taking say, a single base force ground unit, at Buin, Gili, even Lae, and using it to boost up not only your level bombers, but also your carrier planes as well until they are up past the 80's in exp, then using that to go bomb moving ships with alot of teeth.

Cap is doing this to me in our current PBEM and recently announced at how experienced his carrier units had gotten just bombing a ill defended (and yes, ill conceived on my part) landing force. Avg exp levels in the 80's with a few 90's. We've only been playing about a month's worth of game time.

Just seemed a little extreme to me. Hence my concern that the 70 exp rule will be mostly negated by this type of tactic

[siRkid]

Originally posted by Nikademus
Hi Rick

I agree that there would be 'some' boost in training via these runs but my concern is that the exp gain may be too easy to obtain over too short a period of time

Let me clarify what I mean by "milk run" as well.

I'm talking about taking say, a single base force ground unit, at Buin, Gili, even Lae, and using it to boost up not only your level bombers, but also your carrier planes as well until they are up past the 80's in exp, then using that to go bomb moving ships with alot of teeth.

Cap is doing this to me in our current PBEM and recently announced at how experienced his carrier units had gotten just bombing a ill defended (and yes, ill conceived on my part) landing force. Avg exp levels in the 80's with a few 90's. We've only been playing about a month's worth of game time.

Just seemed a little extreme to me. Hence my concern that the 70 exp rule will be mostly negated by this type of tactic

Ok I see what you mean. I agree that you should only be able to get to a certain level of proficiency. There is a difference between a well trained air crew and a battle hardened aircrew.

Rick

[CapAndGown]

Since it takes someone with experience in the 80's to hit a ship (dive bombers only, level bombers do just fine with pilots with 40 experience) changing the training aspect of the game very well could mean that carriers will become toothless, most especially the US carriers, but also the jap carriers after they lose their first line pilots.

Also, those "80" experienced pilots were already in the 70's when they started their "milk runs". Before you go calling for any changes, I suggest you do some area 51 tests to justify your calls for any change.

[Nikademus]

pilots in the 70's dive bomb ships farily well in games i've played. ??

I can do some tests though i think the results speak for themselves. Yes i am aware that many of your pilots started in the 70's but i think your missing the point a little.

As of right now UV has a "learning curve" already instituted into the game. Meaning that its easier to gain exp in the lower dregs (50 and below) but gets progressively harder as you climb further and further up the scale, between 50-60, 70-80 and 80+

Since it only took a month to train your units from the70's into the 80's bombing but a single ill defended land target, how easy will it be to put air units starting in the 50's and 60's into the 70's where the preposed level bomber Acc penalty will be placed?

Seems to me it wont take much effort at all on players part to crest this level 70 threshold utilizing the static land unit field run method.

[mogami]

"Aso was used as a target ship for Kamikaze training attacks and did not survive this abuse. (guess some of the students did not learn "pull up"

Hi, I cut this from the WITP forum, One of the late war IJN CV was lost because it was used to train green pilots.

I think any target hex that contains an actual enemy unit should count for experiance. (I do think exp is gained too rapidly and actually goes too high. (I think pilots should arrive with a ceiling to how high they can go. It would be random and unknown to the player. Plently of mediorce pilots flew 25+ missions. (and they never were that much better)
However to be fair I think the group leader should be where bomber accuracy comes from. (esp against non ship targets)
And the group leaders ratings should have a chance to improve over time.
If it was not too much work prehaps even ratings for land targets and another for ships. (or just a modifer. Army LBA group is minus so many points versus ships)

[Joel Billings]

Please save yourself the trouble and don't do any tests until you get the 2.30 patch. Much has changed in this area (I think Gary tweaked some experience forumlas but I'm not entirely sure). I know that Gary felt the changes in bombing accuracy (together with any tweaks he made or didn't on exp gain) would change the way pilots got their experience. Try out 2.30 and let us know how things work. It should be out in a week or two (at most).

Also, did I see someone mentioning that they had 30 experience carrier pilots for the US? There was a time when US pilots never came in worse than 50 (certainly not in the 30's). Is this not the case anymore?

Joel

[CapAndGown]

Originally posted by Joel Billings

Also, did I see someone mentioning that they had 30 experience carrier pilots for the US? There was a time when US pilots never came in worse than 50 (certainly not in the 30's). Is this not the case anymore?

Joel

I got a whole slew of them. I'll trade you a case of beer for them.

I think this may have been an anomoly because the game was started using 2.1. Mike Wood indicated that the number of pilots in the pool for both Japan and US was doubled in 2.2.

Anomoly or not, though, I am still anxious to make the trade.

Originally posted by Nikademus

Since it only took a month to train your units from the70's into the 80's bombing but a single ill defended land target, how easy will it be to put air units starting in the 50's and 60's into the 70's where the preposed level bomber Acc penalty will be placed?

Actually, it is not that easy. Why? Because the program chooses the "good" pilots to fly offensive missions. Only if the "good" pilots are fatigued do the "crappy" pilots get tasked with executing the mission. Thus, in the SBD squadrons that bombed you for the last month, there are still 2 to 4 pilots in each squadron that are still below 50 experience. I have been trying every way I know to get them some "real" combat experience (ASW doesn't work since the "bump" is very small). But there are still some clunkers in each of those squadrons.

As for my F4F-4 pilots, pfhu! Can't even get in the plane without killing themselves. I have taken to banning them from the base.

[Nikademus]

Originally posted by cap_and_gown
I got a whole slew of them. I'll trade you a case of beer for them.



Actually, it is not that easy. Why? Because the program chooses the "good" pilots to fly offensive missions. Only if the "good" pilots are fatigued do the "crappy" pilots get tasked with executing the mission. Thus, in the SBD squadrons that bombed you for the last month, there are still 2 to 4 pilots in each squadron that are still below 50 experience. I have been trying every way I know to get them some "real" combat experience (ASW doesn't work since the "bump" is very small). But there are still some clunkers in each of those squadrons.

As for my F4F-4 pilots, pfhu! Can't even get in the plane without killing themselves. I have taken to banning them from the base.

Ah, Thanks for the reminder Cap. I had wanted to mention this to Joel.

I've been utilizing the 30% training rule that Drongo came up with as a safe way to try to bring up my greenie pilots without losing veterans to stupid op losses and am still noticing that the majority of the time its the EXPERIENCED/VETERAN pilots that are getting most of the airtime (based on fatigue and # of missions) while a good portion of the greenies just sit on the ground spinning their wheels.

Kind of defeats the purpose of training, not to mention mixing them with veterans. Logically it should be the greenest pilots that get the most training, not the other way around. This way your just increasing your chances to lose a valuable experienced pilot!

[Knavey]

Wasn't Wake Island used a training target for the USN on the way to real combat in the Pacific?

Having served on the USNs finest CVN, the value of training should not be underestimated. Workups and training are integral in the military's doctrine now due to lessons learned in WW2. I personally have no problem with someone bombing for experience, but having the level capped at some limit is also realistic. You can only gain so much experience from training, and then you just have to take what you have learned and apply it.

Keep the experience gain, but cap it.

[CapAndGown]

Originally posted by Nikademus
Ah, Thanks for the reminder Cap. I had wanted to mention this to Joel.

I've been utilizing the 30% training rule that Drongo came up with as a safe way to try to bring up my greenie pilots without losing veterans to stupid op losses and am still noticing that the majority of the time its the EXPERIENCED/VETERAN pilots that are getting most of the airtime (based on fatigue and # of missions) while a good portion of the greenies just sit on the ground spinning their wheels.

Kind of defeats the purpose of training, not to mention mixing them with veterans. Logically it should be the greenest pilots that get the most training, not the other way around. This way your just increasing your chances to lose a valuable experienced pilot!

I haven't seen this. Instead, I am seeing it work just the way it was advertised: least experienced pilots fly training missions. Occasionally, good ones will fly as well, but mostly its the newbies. Another way to give them air time is to put them on ASW or Naval Search. That won't work for fighters. But the training option does seem to work, though I tend to stand them down after every traing flight since I don't need them crashing into the ground on their next outing.

[Joel Billings]

Originally posted by Nikademus
Ah, Thanks for the reminder Cap. I had wanted to mention this to Joel.

I've been utilizing the 30% training rule that Drongo came up with as a safe way to try to bring up my greenie pilots without losing veterans to stupid op losses and am still noticing that the majority of the time its the EXPERIENCED/VETERAN pilots that are getting most of the airtime (based on fatigue and # of missions) while a good portion of the greenies just sit on the ground spinning their wheels.

Kind of defeats the purpose of training, not to mention mixing them with veterans. Logically it should be the greenest pilots that get the most training, not the other way around. This way your just increasing your chances to lose a valuable experienced pilot!

I would have sworn that a change was made in one of the patchs so that the inexperienced pilots were much more likely to fly training. Are you sure using 2.20 that this isn't the case?

[Hard Sarge]

Well don't know about training missions, but I have been sending most of my P-39's out on sweeps, and all the squadrons are in the 90+ range for Exp, I have 5 SBD and 2 TBF's that have been bombing Rebaul, along with the sweeps, and they are also in the 90's

(kind of strange, my high Kill Fighter squadrons, one has 112 kills and 68 Exp, the other has 104 kills and 74 Exp)

I have even gone to the extent of my new F4u squadrons have gone over to sweep missions while waiting for some bad guys to come back and fight

HARD_Sarge

[Drongo]

Posted by Hard Sarge

Well don't know about training missions, but I have been sending most of my P-39's out on sweeps, and all the squadrons are in the 90+ range for Exp, I have 5 SBD and 2 TBF's that have been bombing Rebaul, along with the sweeps, and they are also in the 90's

(kind of strange, my high Kill Fighter squadrons, one has 112 kills and 68 Exp, the other has 104 kills and 74 Exp)

I have even gone to the extent of my new F4u squadrons have gone over to sweep missions while waiting for some bad guys to come back and fight

Mate,

The P39s (as Fighter Bombers) always accrue high experience from sweeps (and port attacks, etc). In my experience though, "pure" fighters (like the F4Us, etc) on sweep missions hardly seem to get any real experience increase at all. Normally just get tired and suffer some casualties.

I've yet to find any fighter mission apart from escort and CAP that gets you any real experience (and even then it can't compare to what the F/Bs get on ground attack, etc). Go to your fighter squadron that has 112 kills and add up the total number of kills for the current pilots. Gives you an idea of how long the pilots who score (and gain experience) last over time in air to air. That's the real block on fighter squadrons gaining high experience.

I always end up with 90+ exp P39/P400s/Wirraways ( :p ) while my fighter squadrons languish in the 70s (at best).

[Drongo]

Posted by Nik

I've been utilizing the 30% training rule that Drongo came up with as a safe way to try to bring up my greenie pilots without losing veterans to stupid op losses and am still noticing that the majority of the time its the EXPERIENCED/VETERAN pilots that are getting most of the airtime (based on fatigue and # of missions) while a good portion of the greenies just sit on the ground spinning their wheels.

Under 2.20, the newbies often take a few turns to get going. Also, most of the experienced pilots will still train even when there is no benefit.

Because of this, you just need to be patient. It can take weeks to get all the new pilots into the mid 50s and beyond.

Haven't tried the experiment out yet in that other UV game (which shall remain nameless).:p

[Hard Sarge]

Roger that Dongo

(sweeps help if you can get a target that is out of supply, so the Flak don't work )

hassle my game, no more bad guys in the air, so it is either put my guys on lonely Cap or send out some sweeps

HARD_Sarge

[Drongo]

Posted by Hard Sarge

hassle my game, no more bad guys in the air, so it is either put my guys on lonely Cap or send out some sweeps

Oh, you poor baby.

sweeps help if you can get a target that is out of supply, so the Flak don't work

Agreed but.....

When I mentioned that fighters don't seem to do anything but get tired and take some losses, that also included attacking the "soft targets" you described. While their operational losses will be almost nil in that situation, they will lose 1-2 planes a week non-operationally. Its not the (tiny) losses that are a prob. Its the fact that they just wont pick up anywhere near the same experience as fighter bombers, for the same effort. Maybe its somehow related to the fact that fighter bombers (I think) will still drop bombs even at 100 ft (and therefore do more damage).

I cant confirm all this but I did have a group of Aussie P40s (exp 63) and a group of Yank P39s (exp 59) perform 100ft sweeps from PM at Jap held Buna (which had no AA defence, just inf). After 2 weeks of sweeping (you'd expect their airfield would be the cleanest in the South Pacific), I checked them again and the P39s were in the mid 70s exp and the Aussies?.......still 63. Since I'd lost 3 P40s for no gain, I dropped the idea and just left them on CAP.

See how you go.

Cheers