The Accidental War Obvert vs Lowpe

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

As someone who has only played Allies, stock scenario, I dread Jap torpedo planes more than bombers. They seem to be more accurate, except in bad weather. Torpedoes also seem to have a greater chance to sink a ship, compared to the same number of bombs.

Well, they do make a big gaping hole in the ship below the waterline. Water tends to get in. Water inside the hull tends to sink ships.

Not to state the obvious or anything [8D].

[MakeeLearn]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna




Well, they do make a big gaping hole in the ship below the waterline. Water tends to get in. Water inside the hull tends to sink ships.

Not to state the obvious or anything [8D].

Yes, it is another gold star for WiTPAE's modeling of the real world.

[Lowpe]

It is harder to sink ships in a big port like Pearl, with naval support squads and a nice repair yard.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Xargun

but nothing beats 200 Helens catching an allied unit sitting in the open. I have killed many allied units (complete destruction) in the open using Helens - mostly in Burma and Oz.

They are guidelines not hard and fast rules.[;)] Oz is usually easier as their is a noted lack of AA there. Burma can be tough, especially if the Ceylon AA is bought out.

One torpedo is 10 supply.

[Lowpe]

Night bombing:

As JFB, I hate night bombing. Don't really use it...but we seem to have a very interesting HR limiting it's use on ports and airfields.

So, I think I may actually dedicate one squadron of Helen/Sally/Peggy to it. Of course, Japan used it in real life.

I think it will be about as effective as the following passage, but it will add flavor.

The following morning we went off with the twins to Calcutta to see what damage was caused by the bombing. On our way we were met by the astonishing sight of a great exodus from Calcutta. Men, women and children, cars and lorries of all descriptions, donkeys, goats tethered to carts, parrots in cages on top of lorries, one solid mass of humanity were moving along the trunk road, all terrified out of their wits trying to reach a place of safety anywhere away from Calcutta. We continued on or way but apart from a small hole in the road in front of the Great Eastern hotel there was nothing much to see.
Eugenie Fraser, wife of a jute mill manager, Calcutta, late 1942

(source:page 104 of Eugenie Fraser: “A home by the Hooghly. A jute Wallahs Wife” .Edinburgh: Mainstream Publishing 1989)

(COPYRIGHT NOTICE: Reproduced under 'fair dealing' terms as part of a non commercial educational research project. The copyright remains with Eugenie Fraser)

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Aurorus





Playing the Ironman scenarios, I did not use torpedos againt Pearl at all. The flak is just too murderous. In so doing, I discovered that 800 Kg bombs are actually more effective than torpedos at sinking the BBs (and more likely to get magazine explosions). The problem with just setting all bomb attacks in a PBEM is that the damage will be mostly system damage and many of the BBs will still make good speed on the 8th. It will also be hard to sink them with submarines later when they make their move to the West Coast, because they will have less flotation damage.

But for someone who wants to inflict maximum damage with 1 strike, bombs are actually better than torpedos for the Kates. And if you want to sink all 8 against the AI, which anyone can do without much trouble, it is much easier to do it with bombs than torpedos, while the BBs are at Pearl.

I really disagree. Torpedoes are best for quickly sinking ships, particularly armored ones. There's no guarantee that your Kates will fly with 800kg bombs instead of 2x250kg.

Ironman flak may be a special case, but you could try setting the attack altitude of the Kates to maximum to see if that magically avoids the flak. It's possible that torpedo bombers are still fired at when at 200 feet, but torpedo planes appear to teleport from whatever altitude they were at to 200 feet in order to launch.

Have to agree with Lok here, and I have played nasty nasty and the Pearl strike is a step to far, if you want to take the SRA, but the problem with assigning a higher altitude to the Kates is the decreased hit rates for those squadrons that do take bombs over torpedoes which I am not sure how the player can influence.

There does seem to be a magic coordination in the Pearl strike, where flying at different altitudes doesn't seem to cause the strike to splinter however.

Trust me... the Kates take flak at 200 feet if they torpedo on Dec. 7th. It is just that the majority of the U.S. flak is turned off somehow. On Ironman nasty, even with some flak turned off, it is too much for the Kates at 200 feet... really bad... like 18 Kates destroyed and 30 damaged. Now fly in at 12K or 15K... lots of nice bomb hits, usually a magazine explosion, and 1 Kate destroyed, 2 damaged. Much more acceptable. Wash, rinse, and repeat against nasty, and you sink all 8 BBs. The computer makes a break for it on day 4 or 5, I think, so that is the time to use your torpedos. Why not strike Pearl in nasty? Just go slow in the DEI. Use land-based air and move 1 base at a time. It is well worth it to get the Lexington, which starts in Pearl, and 8 BBs.

[Lowpe]

Here is a look at the starting fighter squadrons -- Army.

I feel bad for these guys, as they are going to have a tough time early game.

They will be stuck with the Oscar Ic, until Tony rolls around probably somewhere in mid 42. Even in games where I accelerate the Oscar, Tojo they don't really seem to contribute much thru mid 43 as the Allies really hide a lot so I am hoping the Ic will fill the bill.

By the time I need to defend Magwe, the Tony should be coming online to fill the bill, and perhaps I will have to use the Nick as well.

I have a fair bit of Tony research, and I am pondering now do I accelerate the an early model just to get something in place of Oscar Ic or do I jump straight to the 100-I. By the time the factories repair, I will have the 500 engine bonus for the Ki100 and that is powerful.

The Ki61-d comes with centerline cannons and is one year earlier than the Ki100-I. The Ki61-c also has cannons (f mount)and comes 7 months sooner than the D.

Jumping forward it is past mid 43 for the Frank A to start production. On the Navy side the Jack should start production in very early 1943. So there is a fighter gap say from June 42 to 1943 where the Navy Zeroes & Nick will really have to do quite a bit of work.

I will have one factory of Tojo IIa, and if the air war is quiet perhaps that will be enough to let me jump straight to the Ki100-I and skip all previous versions of the Tony.

As for bomber escorts it is going to be the Oscar Ic for the Army for quite a while.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna




I really disagree. Torpedoes are best for quickly sinking ships, particularly armored ones. There's no guarantee that your Kates will fly with 800kg bombs instead of 2x250kg.

Ironman flak may be a special case, but you could try setting the attack altitude of the Kates to maximum to see if that magically avoids the flak. It's possible that torpedo bombers are still fired at when at 200 feet, but torpedo planes appear to teleport from whatever altitude they were at to 200 feet in order to launch.

Have to agree with Lok here, and I have played nasty nasty and the Pearl strike is a step to far, if you want to take the SRA, but the problem with assigning a higher altitude to the Kates is the decreased hit rates for those squadrons that do take bombs over torpedoes which I am not sure how the player can influence.

There does seem to be a magic coordination in the Pearl strike, where flying at different altitudes doesn't seem to cause the strike to splinter however.

Trust me... the Kates take flak at 200 feet if they torpedo on Dec. 7th. It is just that the majority of the U.S. flak is turned off somehow. On Ironman nasty, even with some flak turned off, it is too much for the Kates at 200 feet... really bad... like 18 Kates destroyed and 30 damaged. Now fly in at 12K or 15K... lots of nice bomb hits, usually a magazine explosion, and 1 Kate destroyed, 2 damaged. Much more acceptable. Wash, rinse, and repeat against nasty, and you sink all 8 BBs. The computer makes a break for it on day 4 or 5, I think, so that is the time to use your torpedos. Why not strike Pearl in nasty? Just go slow in the DEI. Use land-based air and move 1 base at a time. It is well worth it to get the Lexington, which starts in Pearl, and 8 BBs.

On the combat replay simulation, where all the kates carried torpedoes, that was the loss 14 kia and 30 damaged roughly.

Flying high avoids the first round of AA, or at least whatever you are flying above, but they still get nailed on their torpedo run.

I didn't do the Pearl strike on Andymac's idea. He had just come out with the mod, and there is a battleship to sink near Manila...seemed like a fair trade to accelerate the SRA conquests.

[Lowpe]

Navy Fighters at game start.

Not many, and they will really be tasked with a lot of responsibility early on.

The Rufe and A6M3 planes are just around the corner and will help. Expect to see a fair bit of Rufe action this game.

It will be Jack and George carrying a lot of weight after 1942,and I expect to get Sam mid 44.

[Anachro]

What are your thoughts on night fighters and R&D as you go forward? J1N1 seems like the easiest to get early on, but I don't rate it highly. It might not even be worth it considering when massed Allied night attacks might appear.

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Here is a look at the starting fighter squadrons -- Army.

I feel bad for these guys, as they are going to have a tough time early game.

They will be stuck with the Oscar Ic, until Tony rolls around probably somewhere in mid 42. Even in games where I accelerate the Oscar, Tojo they don't really seem to contribute much thru mid 43 as the Allies really hide a lot so I am hoping the Ic will fill the bill.

By the time I need to defend Magwe, the Tony should be coming online to fill the bill, and perhaps I will have to use the Nick as well.

I have a fair bit of Tony research, and I am pondering now do I accelerate the an early model just to get something in place of Oscar Ic or do I jump straight to the 100-I. By the time the factories repair, I will have the 500 engine bonus for the Ki100 and that is powerful.

The Ki61-d comes with centerline cannons and is one year earlier than the Ki100-I. The Ki61-c also has cannons (f mount)and comes 7 months sooner than the D.

Jumping forward it is past mid 43 for the Frank A to start production. On the Navy side the Jack should start production in very early 1943. So there is a fighter gap say from June 42 to 1943 where the Navy Zeroes & Nick will really have to do quite a bit of work.

I will have one factory of Tojo IIa, and if the air war is quiet perhaps that will be enough to let me jump straight to the Ki100-I and skip all previous versions of the Tony.

As for bomber escorts it is going to be the Oscar Ic for the Army for quite a while.

Don't forget, your Tony factories upgrade through the line for free, and each Tony brings something new. Why not research the line? It seems more supply efficient and gives you a better airforce throughout the war, not just at the end-game.

The first Tony has 2 main problems: range and service rating. As the line progresses, these problems are resolved. The Tony is very good if you can get the better SR and longer range versions into play early.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Anachro

What are your thoughts on night fighters and R&D as you go forward? J1N1 seems like the easiest to get early on, but I don't rate it highly. It might not even be worth it considering when massed Allied night attacks might appear.

Obvert wrote the book on late war night fighter defense, and I was an avid pupil at the time. [:)]

In my game against Tiemanj, I was able to put together a strategy that really minimized night bombing, to the point that for the most part the Allies pursued a daytime strategy.

Obvert proposed no 4E ground bombing as a HR. I think this speaks volumes for his planned usage of 4Es. I am expecting early and often night bombing especially of places like Magwe.

To counter I have a strong r&d program and a holistically zen approach:

Irving-s (size 30 x2): It is the first and critical night fighter to get. Many bad mouth it, but in 1943 it does well, especially against 2E night bombers. The Sa version is a marked step up, has an extra gun which lets the Irving fight longer, and has radar as of 6/44 I believe. Both factories will probably research the -sa version, depending upon game events.

France-s (size 30 x2): The best NF in the game. Hands down imho. Perhaps an argument can be made for the Myrt being that it is single engine (but the lack of armor is a telling disadvantage I think)?

Zero NF: (size 30 x1): Carrier capable, and allows for some modest resizing of a few NF squadrons.

Nick D: (size 30 x1): This should insure it arrives roughly in time with the early B29 squadrons. You need Nicks for their sheer volume.

Dinah NF: (size 30 x1): Important to get so that some recon squadrons can be opened up to the NF tree.

Peggy 109-I (size 30 x2): Armored, durable, fast enough if just barely. If I make it this far will become the primary Army NF.

Myrt NF (size 30 x1): Because Pax likes them, also because they seemed to do better than their stats would suggest. I hope I live long enough to find out.

Denko: trash. SR way too high, radar activates late.
RandY: trash. Radar activates way too late, arrives too late.
Judy: cheap single engine and fairly fast, but barely armed and you don't need it to unlock any NF squadrons. Not CV capable.

The best NF are armored, 360mph+, with good and accurate cannons and radar, low SR. Doesn't exist, so we will make do with the above choices turning all 21 or 22 possible NF squadrons to achieve mass.

AA is key. Searchlights are nice and those AA units with them will be prioritized to likely night bombing bases, but radar is very important. The biggest deterrent early is to have something flying that will distract the bombers in addition to the AA-- my preferred choices will be Petes in port, and the Dinah Fighter when she comes along. M-M has reported good results with Randy F and Nicks.

I am thinking there will be a lot of night action in this game!

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Here is a look at the starting fighter squadrons -- Army.

I feel bad for these guys, as they are going to have a tough time early game.

They will be stuck with the Oscar Ic, until Tony rolls around probably somewhere in mid 42. Even in games where I accelerate the Oscar, Tojo they don't really seem to contribute much thru mid 43 as the Allies really hide a lot so I am hoping the Ic will fill the bill.

By the time I need to defend Magwe, the Tony should be coming online to fill the bill, and perhaps I will have to use the Nick as well.

I have a fair bit of Tony research, and I am pondering now do I accelerate the an early model just to get something in place of Oscar Ic or do I jump straight to the 100-I. By the time the factories repair, I will have the 500 engine bonus for the Ki100 and that is powerful.

The Ki61-d comes with centerline cannons and is one year earlier than the Ki100-I. The Ki61-c also has cannons (f mount)and comes 7 months sooner than the D.

Jumping forward it is past mid 43 for the Frank A to start production. On the Navy side the Jack should start production in very early 1943. So there is a fighter gap say from June 42 to 1943 where the Navy Zeroes & Nick will really have to do quite a bit of work.

I will have one factory of Tojo IIa, and if the air war is quiet perhaps that will be enough to let me jump straight to the Ki100-I and skip all previous versions of the Tony.

As for bomber escorts it is going to be the Oscar Ic for the Army for quite a while.

Don't forget, your Tony factories upgrade through the line for free, and each Tony brings something new. Why not research the line? It seems more supply efficient and gives you a better airforce throughout the war, not just at the end-game.

The first Tony has 2 main problems: range and service rating. As the line progresses, these problems are resolved. The Tony is very good if you can get the better SR and longer range versions into play early.

If I jump from one plane to the next down the line it will put off getting the Ki100-I till fairly late. If I jump straight down the line from the 61A to the 100-I, I can get the plane in mid 43 or maybe earlier. I am thinking other fighters will give the cover I need till it arrives.

This is a gamey move, and many players get upset when you skip generations like this.

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Here is a look at the starting fighter squadrons -- Army.

I feel bad for these guys, as they are going to have a tough time early game.

They will be stuck with the Oscar Ic, until Tony rolls around probably somewhere in mid 42. Even in games where I accelerate the Oscar, Tojo they don't really seem to contribute much thru mid 43 as the Allies really hide a lot so I am hoping the Ic will fill the bill.

By the time I need to defend Magwe, the Tony should be coming online to fill the bill, and perhaps I will have to use the Nick as well.

I have a fair bit of Tony research, and I am pondering now do I accelerate the an early model just to get something in place of Oscar Ic or do I jump straight to the 100-I. By the time the factories repair, I will have the 500 engine bonus for the Ki100 and that is powerful.

The Ki61-d comes with centerline cannons and is one year earlier than the Ki100-I. The Ki61-c also has cannons (f mount)and comes 7 months sooner than the D.

Jumping forward it is past mid 43 for the Frank A to start production. On the Navy side the Jack should start production in very early 1943. So there is a fighter gap say from June 42 to 1943 where the Navy Zeroes & Nick will really have to do quite a bit of work.

I will have one factory of Tojo IIa, and if the air war is quiet perhaps that will be enough to let me jump straight to the Ki100-I and skip all previous versions of the Tony.

As for bomber escorts it is going to be the Oscar Ic for the Army for quite a while.

Don't forget, your Tony factories upgrade through the line for free, and each Tony brings something new. Why not research the line? It seems more supply efficient and gives you a better airforce throughout the war, not just at the end-game.

The first Tony has 2 main problems: range and service rating. As the line progresses, these problems are resolved. The Tony is very good if you can get the better SR and longer range versions into play early.

If I jump from one plane to the next down the line it will put off getting the Ki100-I till fairly late. If I jump straight down the line from the 61A to the 100-I, I can get the plane in mid 43 or maybe earlier. I am thinking other fighters will give the cover I need till it arrives.

This is a gamey move, and many players get upset when you skip generations like this.

1) I think its gamey. Not important what I think though. It's what you and Obvert think.
2) How many factories are you going to put into Tony to move up the 100 I by 2 years? That is a lot of R&D, and you will not even have 500 engines in the pool until fall 42, even with heavy Kawasaki R&D and production. By using much less Heavy Industry for R&D, you can have the 61D in early 43 and the Tony 1 in early 44. The only major differences between the 61D and the 100 I are 4 points of manuever and 1 service rating. All things are a tradeoff.

Oh... I just realized that the 100 uses the Mit 33. So I guess going for it directly is more efficient than I initially thought.

[Lowpe]

Kaboom! And the war has begun!

[Anachro]

Always nice to sink one of the dutch subs in the early game. I wish you a successful campaign. Thanks for the input. Some different conclusions to what I decided upon for myself when analyzing the various aircraft. Originally, I like the Randy a lot and was considering incorporating it with R&D investment (most likely due to the radar). Do you know when radar activates?

Do you think about what's economical from an engine standpoint when deciding on your investments? I.E. The Ha-32 of the Frances doesn't have overlap with much else. The Ha-33 of the Randy has various overlapping planes. Just a thought.

[Lowpe]

The Pearl strike is away...but reports are garbled...not clear...

Over Luzon the sweep goes in first, and finds a stronger air presence than expected. It is brushed aside!

[Lowpe]

Where is Force Z?

[Lowpe]

Luzon...

[Lowpe]

Shipping at Georgetown detected...and obliterated.