Panzer Division = SUPER MAN

[thedoctorking]

All right, put me in touch with your friend. I'm seriously interested in playing. Your perception of how this game works is so different from mine, I think the only way we are going to resolve this argument is by trying it out.

BTW, I tried to pull my armor off the front for refit against Sparkleytits in winter 41-42 and had to bring them back because he was bum-rushing my infantry across the front.

[lowsugar]

Gamesaurus, maybe you should try a game against someone else?

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: lowsugar

Gamesaurus, maybe you should try a game against someone else?

This is exactly why I am certain there is an issue. Wheat and I have played nearly every game simulation of the East Front that has existed since Game Design Workshop published Drang Nach Osten in 1973. He and I have routinely beat each other in games of this nature for years. WITE is the one exception. If this was simply a situation where he knew something about the game mechanics that I didn't, it could be fixed by me applying whatever it was... but I don't think that is the case. I think there is an issue here with balance at the standard settings. Certainly, the 41-42 period has major issues.

In any case , I will be acquiring WITE 2.0 when it is out... this particular piece of history is too compelling to resist. [:)]

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

ORIGINAL: lowsugar
Gamesaurus, maybe you should try a game against someone else?

Wheat and I have played nearly every game simulation of the East Front that has existed since Game Design Workshop published Drang Nach Osten in 1973. He and I have routinely beat each other in games of this nature for years. WITE is the one exception. If this was simply a situation where he knew something about the game mechanics that I didn't, it could be fixed by me applying whatever it was...

It could be that playing each other mostly has not exposed you to other metas of playing the game that would break the winning streak? Knowing the mechanic would mean you could then make the fix?

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

All right, put me in touch with your friend. I'm seriously interested in playing. Your perception of how this game works is so different from mine, I think the only way we are going to resolve this argument is by trying it out.

BTW, I tried to pull my armor off the front for refit against Sparkleytits in winter 41-42 and had to bring them back because he was bum-rushing my infantry across the front.

When I did that in the patch before 1.11.0, (during extreme blizzard and with 1-1=2-1) although I gained a number of Guard units and must have done some damage to the German troops, I never saw any of his Panzers... and in spring of 42 I made the mistake of attempting to defend. Two major pockets later the Russian army was down to like 3.9 million and disappearing.

At the standard settings in 41-42, the Panzer Ball is untouchable and cuts through the Russian lines like a hot knife through butter.

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

ORIGINAL: lowsugar
Gamesaurus, maybe you should try a game against someone else?

Wheat and I have played nearly every game simulation of the East Front that has existed since Game Design Workshop published Drang Nach Osten in 1973. He and I have routinely beat each other in games of this nature for years. WITE is the one exception. If this was simply a situation where he knew something about the game mechanics that I didn't, it could be fixed by me applying whatever it was...

It could be that playing each other mostly has not exposed you to other metas of playing the game that would break the winning streak? Knowing the mechanic would mean you could then make the fix?

What would be instructive would be for Wheat to play the "expert" Russian players here to test the validity of game impressions. If somebody here can thwart his methods, I would know there was something yet to learn. Me playing another "expert" German will only result in my getting trounced yet again and that would not provide me with a solution. If there is a Russian solution that can hold either Leningrad or Moskow in 1941, it has completely escaped me.

[Stelteck]

Before changing NM which have a huge impact on the game as steph said previously, maybe we should try to give all blizzard and attack bonus options to the soviet first.

We can all agree that +1 attack bonus is not too strong for the soviet during summer.
And that Full blizzard is ok for the german during winter.

Some say there is a problem when we use both at the same time during winter. Never tested it but maybe true. Perhaps it is this we can try to modify. (Such as ending the soviet +1 attack bonus when the blizzard start instead of waiting for spring 1942).

We can also try to balance combat looses, manpower and tank production, etc...

[thedoctorking]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

Wheat and I have played nearly every game simulation of the East Front that has existed since Game Design Workshop published Drang Nach Osten in 1973. He and I have routinely beat each other in games of this nature for years. WITE is the one exception. If this was simply a situation where he knew something about the game mechanics that I didn't, it could be fixed by me applying whatever it was...

It could be that playing each other mostly has not exposed you to other metas of playing the game that would break the winning streak? Knowing the mechanic would mean you could then make the fix?

What would be instructive would be for Wheat to play the "expert" Russian players here to test the validity of game impressions. If somebody here can thwart his methods, I would know there was something yet to learn. Me playing another "expert" German will only result in my getting trounced yet again and that would not provide me with a solution. If there is a Russian solution that can hold either Leningrad or Moskow in 1941, it has completely escaped me.

I have a pretty high opinion of my skills, as you can see. I'm happy to play your friend.

I loved DNO/Untenschnieden. We actually set up the whole GDW series, from Poland on, and played up to the first months of Barbarossa. Took about four years. I would totally pay a hundred bucks for a WitE/WitW combined game that starts in 1939. Or even better, 1936 with production options.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

Nada

[DeletedUser1769703214]

Nada

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

ORIGINAL: Telemecus



It could be that playing each other mostly has not exposed you to other metas of playing the game that would break the winning streak? Knowing the mechanic would mean you could then make the fix?

What would be instructive would be for Wheat to play the "expert" Russian players here to test the validity of game impressions. If somebody here can thwart his methods, I would know there was something yet to learn. Me playing another "expert" German will only result in my getting trounced yet again and that would not provide me with a solution. If there is a Russian solution that can hold either Leningrad or Moskow in 1941, it has completely escaped me.

I have a pretty high opinion of my skills, as you can see. I'm happy to play your friend.

I loved DNO/Untenschnieden. We actually set up the whole GDW series, from Poland on, and played up to the first months of Barbarossa. Took about four years. I would totally pay a hundred bucks for a WitE/WitW combined game that starts in 1939. Or even better, 1936 with production options.

[:D]Yes DNO / Unentschieden was a monster, wasn't it ? I still have my copy of them (hidden in the closet where it belongs!, thank Grigsby for a computerized version.) A combined European Theater game would be interesting, or even German production options in WITE 2.0. Anyway I'm going to point out this thread to Wheat and see if he takes the bait. He's very busy and normally we only play within our "Old Guard" circle, but maybe he could find the time to do it. It would definitely be instructive for me.

[SparkleyTits]

I do find that if players only play Soviets there are a lot of disadvantages that come with that

I do think playing both sides has a lot of advantages but I would say it is more important for Soviet main players especially to play Axis atleast a little bit otherwise there are a lot of nuances that are missed and sometimes it can be detrimental to understand and properly defend from the the capabilities of a capable Axis player

I would advise all players try a little of both teams at least a little so they can understand the advantages and disadvantages of both and adapt accordingly otherwise from my very humble opinion there is a hefty part of the game you will struggle to understand properly even with a lot of losses under the belt to try and compensate for the lack of experience with both sides capabilities

[SparkleyTits]

I would also love to see Doctorking vs Wheat game

Doctorking is a progressively minded and competent player and I would happily bet that he would give any old guard player at least a very good run for their money or better

[tyronec]

When I did that in the patch before 1.11.0, (during extreme blizzard and with 1-1=2-1) although I gained a number of Guard units and must have done some damage to the German troops, I never saw any of his Panzers... and in spring of 42 I made the mistake of attempting to defend. Two major pockets later the Russian army was down to like 3.9 million and disappearing.

At the standard settings in 41-42, the Panzer Ball is untouchable and cuts through the Russian lines like a hot knife through butter.

If you posted an AAR of your game it would be possible to assess how much validity what you write has. Without that just can't tell if you are making a lot of mistakes or if your opponent has a winning game plan.

Before changing NM which have a huge impact on the game as steph said previously, maybe we should try to give all blizzard and attack bonus options to the soviet first. We can all agree that +1 attack bonus is not too strong for the soviet during summer.
And that Full blizzard is ok for the german during winter.

Some say there is a problem when we use both at the same time during winter. Never tested it but maybe true. Perhaps it is this we can try to modify. (Such as ending the soviet +1 attack bonus when the blizzard start instead of waiting for spring 1942).

We can also try to balance combat looses, manpower and tank production, etc...

Great idea, ending the '+1' before the blizzard would be a definite help. Think it adds a lot of interest to the first summer to play with the '+1'; however IMO the '+1' during the blizzard is almost too strong even on 'mild blizzard'.

[STEF78]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Before changing NM which have a huge impact on the game as steph said previously, maybe we should try to give all blizzard and attack bonus options to the soviet first. We can all agree that +1 attack bonus is not too strong for the soviet during summer.
And that Full blizzard is ok for the german during winter.

Some say there is a problem when we use both at the same time during winter. Never tested it but maybe true. Perhaps it is this we can try to modify. (Such as ending the soviet +1 attack bonus when the blizzard start instead of waiting for spring 1942).

We can also try to balance combat looses, manpower and tank production, etc...

Great idea, ending the '+1' before the blizzard would be a definite help. Think it adds a lot of interest to the first summer to play with the '+1'; however IMO the '+1' during the blizzard is almost too strong even on 'mild blizzard'.

I played full blizzard and +1 several times on both sides while mild blizzard wasn't yet set up
- as german, against a good russian player, it's hell. Not because of the losses but as the morale of your inf units can easily fall below 65, it prevents an efficient offensive in march.
- as russian, against an average german player, it's a cakewalk. I managed to trap up to 40 german units...

I definitely prefer mild blizzard and +1. The game is far more intense.

[VigaBrand]

For all the discussion about balancing, I think Stef78 is right. You could work with the settings.
I actual had one game as soviet without +1 und mild winter and non-random weather. Reason was, we had different skill sets, so we play with rules where the axis side get some benefits.

You actual had three options with give you eight different setups for balancing. With the right settings and the right players it is a lot of fun!

And you could work with the alternate cv, which gives the artillery some cv. That could help, too.

I read about some people with house rules. Example: No lvov pocket and than the soviets gets less rail transport. You could balance the current game with options and communication with your partner (don't call it opponent, this could destroy much).

[morvael]

I think experimenting with giving artillery elements CV of 1 and support elements CV of 0 (opposite of default settings) not only makes great sense (gun crews are armed, support squads are not) but would help Soviets a lot (they have a lot of mortars and other guns while they are low on support).

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand
You actual had three options with give you eight different setups for balancing. With the right settings and the right players it is a lot of fun!

Plus several hundred logistics, admin, fortification and production settings for each side.

[morvael]

Finally there is an option to make a custom scenario with morale adjustments (one per year per nation).

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Seems this has degenerated into an “epeen” match with wheat through a third person. Interesting development but it seems to have been set up from the beginning.

So, you see the method in my madness...

I think Wheat's German approach is near perfect. If there is a Russian way to break it... I want to know what it is.