THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS America (A)

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

In essence, that's what I'm doing and what my plan was all along. I'm mostly salvaging anything I can from the doomed places and looking for good opportunities to counter punch. I got a few punches in, and Mike has so far as well. I see my chances to surprise him again in the SRA diminishing as he brings in CV cover and heavy BB presence to discourage me from getting frisky. I'm not trying to pull off a "Fortress Palembang" or "Fortress Java" but I'm also not gonna just let him roll into town in Strat mode and not even have to pause to attack and capture a base. [;)] What I hope I've managed is to get him to wait just a little bit longer for more protection at each phase of his timetable.

What's this? You work as a scheduler for an airline?!

[USSAmerica]

[:D]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica
I'm mostly salvaging anything I can from the doomed places and looking for good opportunities to counter punch. I got a few punches in, and Mike has so far as well. I see my chances to surprise him again in the SRA diminishing as he brings in CV cover and heavy BB presence to discourage me from getting frisky. I'm not trying to pull off a "Fortress Palembang" or "Fortress Java" but I'm also not gonna just let him roll into town in Strat mode and not even have to pause to attack and capture a base. [;)] What I hope I've managed is to get him to wait just a little bit longer for more protection at each phase of his timetable.

In my current game v. Acepylut (May '42), he has applied a similar approach. It took me until May to finally clear a concerted defense on Java (Batavia). He strung me out there by consolidating his defense in that hex. I didn't want to bombard too much, lest I wreck some fine strategic assets there too.

It's pushed my overall timetable back several weeks. Now that the amphibious bonus is gone, that will further slow any more amphibious invasions and make them more deliberate.

But his resistance with the Allied fleet cost him a more substantial butcher's bill than your game. And his submarine forces (mostly immolated at Manila on turn one) have been less effective than your intact group as well.

[Aksully]

I'm just finding this thread and look forward to learning how best to fight the Allies. So I'm a few months behind but I'll ask the questions from this post (25).

First is this a viable strategy pulling back Chinese forces from China back into India? Was this an en mass or just selective unit pullback?

Second, I hadn't thought about pulling out Chinese Air out of theater but I do see the logic.

Third, Is putting the bulk of PI forces into Manila vs Bataan the best option to hold off the eventual conquest? And if so are you reinforcing Clark Field to bleed the Japan more?

Finally, will you be sharing your production and R&D strategy during the game? Really enjoy when guys like you two take on a huge project like this...Thanks for doing so!

[Bif1961]

I would suggest sending your fleet subs back to Manila when you decide to, to use up the fuel stocks there a little and grab mines. Sowing them all over may pay benefits long after you have left them. You will still have some MK-14s onboard to continue patrolling after.

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

I would suggest sending your fleet subs back to Manila when you decide to, to use up the fuel stocks there a little and grab mines. Sowing them all over may pay benefits long after you have left them. You will still have some MK-14s onboard to continue patrolling after.

I like that one, Bif! My AS ships are long gone for safer waters so I can't replenish torpedoes at Manila, but I'll check the port size requirement for mines, and at least top off the sub's fuel tanks.

[USSAmerica]

Some good questions, Aksully. I'll reply in red below.

ORIGINAL: Aksully

I'm just finding this thread and look forward to learning how best to fight the Allies. So I'm a few months behind but I'll ask the questions from this post (25).

First is this a viable strategy pulling back Chinese forces from China back into India? Was this an en mass or just selective unit pullback?
Most games play with a house rule that restricted command LCU's must pay PP to change to an unrestricted command before crossing national borders. Many LCU's are "permanent restricted" and are not allowed to change command HQ at all. The vast bulk of the Chinese ground forces are perm restricted, so by our house rule will not be allowed to leave China. There are around 8 or 10 LCU's that can have their HQ changed to an unrestricted command. Of these, all but 1 that withdraws much earlier than the others will make the long march to India. There they will use the extensive supply available to fill out to their max TOE and won't be eating up the much more limited supply available inside China. These handful of LCU's are mostly at a small fraction of their potential and won't really be missed much early on in China, but they can grow to be a significant force to help with recapturing Burma later on.

Second, I hadn't thought about pulling out Chinese Air out of theater but I do see the logic.
Same as above for the Chinese air forces. They have almost no impact early on in their very weak starting state. You have to pay PP to reassign them to an unrestricted command and then fly them out to a base in India that will become a training hub. There, you can rest them, then constantly train them and fill out the few replacement planes you get while again not consuming the limited and valuable supply available in China.

Third, Is putting the bulk of PI forces into Manila vs Bataan the best option to hold off the eventual conquest? And if so are you reinforcing Clark Field to bleed the Japan more?
I don't know if Manila vs Bataan is a better option or not. There is the significant defensive bonus for the Urban Manila hex, but there are static defenses already at Bataan and a few reinforcements appear there. I've just never tried the Manila defense option before so am going that way this game. I didn't push any reinforcements into Clark because a few can't really do much as the full weight of the Japanese ground forces comes to bear. I chose the option of consolidating my forces in Manila. It won't hold. The defense of the PI and Singapore almost never hold against a human opponent.
Japan can take them when they want to take them by applying enough forces. The objective for the Allies is to not make it easy and force them to take time and shipping to bring enough forces to the party to capture these places.

Finally, will you be sharing your production and R&D strategy during the game? Really enjoy when guys like you two take on a huge project like this...Thanks for doing so!
I saw the other thread you started to ask about Production and R&D for the Allies. It was unfortunate that you got some of the reaction that you did.

Essentially, there is no R&D for the Allied side in the game. There are some factories on the map, but the bulk of the forces the Allies get come in from "off map". The factories that are present on the map, as well as industry, resources, oil, and refineries, can't be changed by the Allied player, other than turning some of the industry/refinery on or off. You can also manage repairs of any that are damaged but it eats up a lot of supply. Be careful to not accidentally repair a bunch of damaged industry points in China and "lose" thousands of supply. Ask me how I know. [:D]

For the bulk of your on map industry, in India, Australia, and the US, turn on everything and let it crank out stuff for you. India and Oz both need fuel shipped in to keep the HI running. This is in addition to the fuel you send to support your operations. Also, the Industry in SE Oz needs Resources shipped in to keep things running. Some can be found in Tasmania, Noumea, etc. There is a bunch generated in North Australia that collects at Port Headland, but this is either captured early on or made very dangerous for your shipping early on as the Japanese capture bases in the DEI.

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica
I'm mostly salvaging anything I can from the doomed places and looking for good opportunities to counter punch. I got a few punches in, and Mike has so far as well. I see my chances to surprise him again in the SRA diminishing as he brings in CV cover and heavy BB presence to discourage me from getting frisky. I'm not trying to pull off a "Fortress Palembang" or "Fortress Java" but I'm also not gonna just let him roll into town in Strat mode and not even have to pause to attack and capture a base. [;)] What I hope I've managed is to get him to wait just a little bit longer for more protection at each phase of his timetable.

In my current game v. Acepylut (May '42), he has applied a similar approach. It took me until May to finally clear a concerted defense on Java (Batavia). He strung me out there by consolidating his defense in that hex. I didn't want to bombard too much, lest I wreck some fine strategic assets there too.

It's pushed my overall timetable back several weeks. Now that the amphibious bonus is gone, that will further slow any more amphibious invasions and make them more deliberate.

But his resistance with the Allied fleet cost him a more substantial butcher's bill than your game. And his submarine forces (mostly immolated at Manila on turn one) have been less effective than your intact group as well.

Hey CB! On Java, I'm going to make my big defensive stand at Soerabaja. I have enough defending Batavia to meet garrison requirements and to make Mike earn it, but everything else that I can is at Soerabaja. I wouldn't mind if a bunch of the industry there gets trashed during it's capture. [;)] Also, since supply is generated from industry on Java I'm at 70k+ and growing for my siege stockpile at Soerabaja.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

ORIGINAL: rustysi

About 2k is being pulled into Mandalay each 2 day turn and 800 into Lashio, both limited by their daily supply cap.

Not 100% sure here, but isn't that 'daily supply' cap in Burma only in effect during the monsoon? That would be mid-May through mid-Oct or Nov. Again not sure of the end date.

Maybe others may chime in on this one.

Sorry I don't have any documentation with me to verify this, but I can tell you Mandalay and Lashio have drawn almost exactly what the current base supply cap is for several turns now. My evidence in game is that they are in effect year round.

That may be, but I remember when your opponent had taken the region while playing Ted, he indicated having some problems getting supply out that way. When I got in there just before mid-May in my game I tried turning up the supply 'spinners', and wallah drew tons of supply. Try it see if it works.

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

ORIGINAL: rustysi



Not 100% sure here, but isn't that 'daily supply' cap in Burma only in effect during the monsoon? That would be mid-May through mid-Oct or Nov. Again not sure of the end date.

Maybe others may chime in on this one.

Sorry I don't have any documentation with me to verify this, but I can tell you Mandalay and Lashio have drawn almost exactly what the current base supply cap is for several turns now. My evidence in game is that they are in effect year round.

That may be, but I remember when your opponent had taken the region while playing Ted, he indicated having some problems getting supply out that way. When I got in there just before mid-May in my game I tried turning up the supply 'spinners', and wallah drew tons of supply. Try it see if it works.

Good thought, but both the supply spinners at Mandalay and Lashio are cranked up to even get them to draw any supply. Without that, they already have more than plenty.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

In emails Mike has expressed several times that I've been very irritating in this game. He fully expected me to pull a Brave Sir Robin defense and literally just run away with everything as fast as I can. Some of my spoiling attacks on land that cause delays, a few successful air attacks on his shipping, and the ambush of his SC TF by Force Z have really surprised him. I know he is operating and approaching his next steps with more caution, which means I've accomplished my first early goal of slowing him down. [8D]

And now you can switch to the Brave Sir Robin strategy and really confound Mike. [:D]

In essence, that's what I'm doing and what my plan was all along. I'm mostly salvaging anything I can from the doomed places and looking for good opportunities to counter punch. I got a few punches in, and Mike has so far as well. I see my chances to surprise him again in the SRA diminishing as he brings in CV cover and heavy BB presence to discourage me from getting frisky. I'm not trying to pull off a "Fortress Palembang" or "Fortress Java" but I'm also not gonna just let him roll into town in Strat mode and not even have to pause to attack and capture a base. [;)] What I hope I've managed is to get him to wait just a little bit longer for more protection at each phase of his timetable.

To me, a very sound and reasonable approach. Not that that means anything.[;)]

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

Some good questions, Aksully. I'll reply in red below.

ORIGINAL: Aksully

I'm just finding this thread and look forward to learning how best to fight the Allies. So I'm a few months behind but I'll ask the questions from this post (25).

First is this a viable strategy pulling back Chinese forces from China back into India? Was this an en mass or just selective unit pullback?
Most games play with a house rule that restricted command LCU's must pay PP to change to an unrestricted command before crossing national borders. Many LCU's are "permanent restricted" and are not allowed to change command HQ at all. The vast bulk of the Chinese ground forces are perm restricted, so by our house rule will not be allowed to leave China. There are around 8 or 10 LCU's that can have their HQ changed to an unrestricted command. Of these, all but 1 that withdraws much earlier than the others will make the long march to India. There they will use the extensive supply available to fill out to their max TOE and won't be eating up the much more limited supply available inside China. These handful of LCU's are mostly at a small fraction of their potential and won't really be missed much early on in China, but they can grow to be a significant force to help with recapturing Burma later on.

Second, I hadn't thought about pulling out Chinese Air out of theater but I do see the logic.
Same as above for the Chinese air forces. They have almost no impact early on in their very weak starting state. You have to pay PP to reassign them to an unrestricted command and then fly them out to a base in India that will become a training hub. There, you can rest them, then constantly train them and fill out the few replacement planes you get while again not consuming the limited and valuable supply available in China.

Third, Is putting the bulk of PI forces into Manila vs Bataan the best option to hold off the eventual conquest? And if so are you reinforcing Clark Field to bleed the Japan more?
I don't know if Manila vs Bataan is a better option or not. There is the significant defensive bonus for the Urban Manila hex, but there are static defenses already at Bataan and a few reinforcements appear there. I've just never tried the Manila defense option before so am going that way this game. I didn't push any reinforcements into Clark because a few can't really do much as the full weight of the Japanese ground forces comes to bear. I chose the option of consolidating my forces in Manila. It won't hold. The defense of the PI and Singapore almost never hold against a human opponent.
Japan can take them when they want to take them by applying enough forces. The objective for the Allies is to not make it easy and force them to take time and shipping to bring enough forces to the party to capture these places.

Finally, will you be sharing your production and R&D strategy during the game? Really enjoy when guys like you two take on a huge project like this...Thanks for doing so!
I saw the other thread you started to ask about Production and R&D for the Allies. It was unfortunate that you got some of the reaction that you did.

Essentially, there is no R&D for the Allied side in the game. There are some factories on the map, but the bulk of the forces the Allies get come in from "off map". The factories that are present on the map, as well as industry, resources, oil, and refineries, can't be changed by the Allied player, other than turning some of the industry/refinery on or off. You can also manage repairs of any that are damaged but it eats up a lot of supply. Be careful to not accidentally repair a bunch of damaged industry points in China and "lose" thousands of supply. Ask me how I know. [:D]

For the bulk of your on map industry, in India, Australia, and the US, turn on everything and let it crank out stuff for you. India and Oz both need fuel shipped in to keep the HI running. This is in addition to the fuel you send to support your operations. Also, the Industry in SE Oz needs Resources shipped in to keep things running. Some can be found in Tasmania, Noumea, etc. There is a bunch generated in North Australia that collects at Port Headland, but this is either captured early on or made very dangerous for your shipping early on as the Japanese capture bases in the DEI.

Nice response Mike. Only thing I'd like to add is with reference to number three.

As said, no matter what, you're not going to hold the PI. As to defending in Manila, Bataan, or Clark, there're a number of choices and differences. To start with Bataan and Manila are x2 defensive territory while Clark is x3. OTOH you get some supply in Manila as it has a LI (light industry, explained for our newbie) of 100. Now Bataan has (on a standard map) all the CD (coastal defense) guns and these protect the approaches to all three bases. In addition, as said you get some reinforcements here as well. So in essence no matter where you defend here its more a matter of preference.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica




Sorry I don't have any documentation with me to verify this, but I can tell you Mandalay and Lashio have drawn almost exactly what the current base supply cap is for several turns now. My evidence in game is that they are in effect year round.

That may be, but I remember when your opponent had taken the region while playing Ted, he indicated having some problems getting supply out that way. When I got in there just before mid-May in my game I tried turning up the supply 'spinners', and wallah drew tons of supply. Try it see if it works.

Good thought, but both the supply spinners at Mandalay and Lashio are cranked up to even get them to draw any supply. Without that, they already have more than plenty.

OK, but I went even further. I cranked the whole line on/off to get it as far inland as I could. Pushed as much as possible into Rangoon. Then, Prome, Magwe, Mandalay.... 'Til I had over 30K at each. As Japan I felt that would hold me until the monsoon ran out. Just sayin'.

For you obviously the end result is to get it into China. From what I've read in these pages over the years it seems the only way to keep supply in China early on. Even then you'll have to be stingy. I imagine you're already aware of this though.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

ORIGINAL: Aksully

So in essence no matter where you defend here its more a matter of preference.

He who defends everything, defends nothing (Fred the Great).

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica
I'm mostly salvaging anything I can from the doomed places and looking for good opportunities to counter punch. I got a few punches in, and Mike has so far as well. I see my chances to surprise him again in the SRA diminishing as he brings in CV cover and heavy BB presence to discourage me from getting frisky. I'm not trying to pull off a "Fortress Palembang" or "Fortress Java" but I'm also not gonna just let him roll into town in Strat mode and not even have to pause to attack and capture a base. [;)] What I hope I've managed is to get him to wait just a little bit longer for more protection at each phase of his timetable.

In my current game v. Acepylut (May '42), he has applied a similar approach. It took me until May to finally clear a concerted defense on Java (Batavia). He strung me out there by consolidating his defense in that hex. I didn't want to bombard too much, lest I wreck some fine strategic assets there too.

It's pushed my overall timetable back several weeks. Now that the amphibious bonus is gone, that will further slow any more amphibious invasions and make them more deliberate.

But his resistance with the Allied fleet cost him a more substantial butcher's bill than your game. And his submarine forces (mostly immolated at Manila on turn one) have been less effective than your intact group as well.

Hey CB! On Java, I'm going to make my big defensive stand at Soerabaja. I have enough defending Batavia to meet garrison requirements and to make Mike earn it, but everything else that I can is at Soerabaja. I wouldn't mind if a bunch of the industry there gets trashed during it's capture. [;)] Also, since supply is generated from industry on Java I'm at 70k+ and growing for my siege stockpile at Soerabaja.

Maybe the best choice, but as an alternative, does anyone think that mountain base SW (can't recall its name) of Batavia is worth a defensive effort. As a last stand I mean.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

So in essence no matter where you defend here its more a matter of preference.

He who defends everything, defends nothing (Fred the Great).

OK, OK, now were're gettin' philosophical.[:-]

And much too deep for my puny mind.[:D]

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: rustysi



So in essence no matter where you defend here its more a matter of preference.

He who defends everything, defends nothing (Fred the Great).

OK, OK, now were're gettin' philosophical.[:-]

And much too deep for my puny mind.[:D]

By any chance are you related to Baldrick?

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: rustysi
Maybe the best choice, but as an alternative, does anyone think that mountain base SW (can't recall its name) of Batavia is worth a defensive effort. As a last stand I mean.

I don't think so. One of the advantages of Batavia / Soerbaja is to hold onto LI/HI in the hexes. I think both Soerbaja and Batavia also have refineries and, in stock, produce supply from the refineries too. This organic supply kept Allied dog opposition strong into May 1942. Lastly, attacks to displace troops from these hexes may damage some underlying industry, a bonus for the Allies.

The hex you cite has good terrain, but little else to merit its last stand defense.

[rustysi]

OK, thanks. Makes sense, just thought it'd be difficult to dislodge from that terrain. Surabaya is clear terrain. I get the possible damage to infrastructure, but sometimes delay is more important.

BTW no refineries in Batavia.

[USSAmerica]

I think you're referring to Bandoeng, Paul. 2 hexes SE of Batavia in mountain terrain. It does have 20 resources and 20 LI, but nothing else that Japan urgently wants or needs. As a defender there, I'd be afraid of being surrounded, occupied by one decent enemy LCU so I can't leave the hex, and then just starved out or forced to become the attacker in mountain terrain.

CB's point about possible industry damage at capture plays a very big part as well. Batavia might be better defensive terrain than Soerabaja, but more resources and fuel collect at the larger port of Soerabaja. Once cut off, there is a chance to keep the industry producing a bit more supply for longer than Batavia. Probably a toss up between the two, just pick one and load it up.