Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

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Veterin
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by Veterin »

T13 - Soviet Perspective

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With the last two light woods taken and the Leningrad and all the fate of the troops in Leningrad is sealed. It is unlikely I will be able to hold until winter and even if I did, Leningrad would still be at risk throughout the winter. In hindsight I should have pulled certain units out of Leningrad as there will be a lot of losses when it falls. With the land sealed, the only avenue for supply (and to not be encircled) is via the Osinovets port. With the land now sealed, the next phase of the siege is in full force – the air war.

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Lake Ladoga hexes hold with indirection 4-3 towards the Axis on the hexes around the port. There was much action in the air around Lake Ladoga with 249 Axis loses (173 were JU 88A’s which would have been used for naval indirection). The soviets in turn lost 187 aircraft, mostly MIGs. It is essential I keep the port open for as long as I can to delay the fall of Leningrad. With only 7k aircraft losses by turn 13, the VSS is in very good shape although so is the LW with only 1.7k in losses so far. It will be an interesting few turns in the skies of the motherland that’s for sure.

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In AGC, there was an unexpected push north towards Rzhev, encircling 2 divisions. My armies have been readjusted to slow down any further advance towards Rzhev. Given how many other VPs I’ll be losing before winter, I really don’t want to lose this one. It’s quiet between Bryansk and Belgorod with the Axis infantry only 2 hexes away from my line however they paused for this turn.

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The push towards Kharkov continues with a number of my infantry units pushed back with encirclement of the city likely next turn. There may be some potential for a counter attack in this theatre however I need to be careful not to overexpose my units to poor defensive terrain at the end of the turn.
Veterin
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by Veterin »

T13 - Soviet Perspective Cont...

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Further south around Stalino, the Axis push has come just north of the city with 3 strong stacks of infantry/panzer units across the river. I have significant offensive capability in the area so I am also considering some counterattacks in this theatre however I know JB is expecting it too!

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A massive battle takes with pretty much the entire Soviet 4th army and mechanised elements from the 9th army attacking the units leading the advance to bypass Stalino (2 panzer divisions, 1 motorised divisions). My losses were brutal with most of my AFVs wiped out with the survivors being merged to rebuild their strength. This attack did however result in the win and it destroyed roughly half the AFV elements in 2 panzer divisions. In total Axis had 313 elements destroyed and a further 214 damaged. My losses were heavy with 2079 elements destroyed and a further 1604 elements damaged. My disrupted elements are huge at over 10k so I’ve pulled back the 4th army where I can and placed fresh units in front of them so they can recover over the next logistical phase.

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This is showing just the Soviet ground attack phase. In total I made 6 attacks this turn and of the 18k manpower losses, 8k alone was from that one large battle around Stalino.
jasonbroomer
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by jasonbroomer »

T14 Axis

The weather is beginning to get to me. I've had more than my fair share of wet weather in the north and here we are mid September, and it is now raining constantly everywhere. We have intermittent light mud everywhere which I find infuriating for planning attacks. One of the issues with a northern push is that it is quite truck intensive and even light mud impedes supply distribution and truck attrition. If we get heavy mud soon, I'm in trouble.
t14 light mud still slows everything FDBs, trucks and movement and 25% combat malus.png
t14 light mud still slows everything FDBs, trucks and movement and 25% combat malus.png (862.18 KiB) Viewed 1620 times

and next turn

t14 the weather is totally killing this game.png
t14 the weather is totally killing this game.png (782.03 KiB) Viewed 1620 times

AGN air war


As Vet reports, there have been massive air wars over Lake Lagoda trying to isolate Leningrad. Again I am frustrated by the weather as rain reduces the effectiveness of my interdiction (I presume). I am assembling a huge proportion of the LfW level bombers yet I still can't isolate the port (in a few turns time, my level bombers start to carry 4 mines rather than 2 which is significant, but I can't afford to wait).
t14 massive air battles around Leningrad, I have huge air assets in the area committed to this interdiction and AS yet I cant get control of the skies.png
t14 massive air battles around Leningrad, I have huge air assets in the area committed to this interdiction and AS yet I cant get control of the skies.png (2.36 MiB) Viewed 1620 times

My air losses this turn are quite alarming, both with Ju88s and fighters. Clearly this is unsustainable and I need to change tactics. Next turn I will launch my longer range He111s as well (which won't take so much local supply) and try a superiority run in addition to escorting with fighters. My land forces need to take that port soon, else supply issues may start to cripple this operation.
Attachments
t14 unsustainable air losses.png
t14 unsustainable air losses.png (821.43 KiB) Viewed 1620 times
jasonbroomer
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by jasonbroomer »

T14 Axis AGN

t14 AGN some important ground taken but blundered the attack here.png
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We get over the major river which is good, but I gamble on making a second crossing at the top, heading directly for Osinovets, the key port that I must capture. The LAH SS brigade gets the order to attack, but the supporting divisions don't :cry: , what a blunder on my part. This fortified zone looked lightly defended, and I might have just had the MPs to slip one of my motorised regiments into the hex if I had captured it. Something tells me that it won't be so lightly defended next turn.

Thankfully I have a lot of resources in the area and fresh divisions are arriving every turn. I am busy rotating infantry divisions into and out of 4th Panzer to build up CPP using its assault status. This involves so forward planning but is very useful to keep the momentum of the attack going. One of the problems I am finding is keeping the supply of ammunition strong, though at least the new divisions are all arriving with 90% CPP and with 130% ammo.

This is a race against time. I am really pleased that Vet has not been able to fortify his positions much due to his supply issues. The sacrifice of the 2/20th Motorised was well worth it.

I had noticed that the Ornien..whatever fortress to the west of Leningrad was only lightly defended. As Vet points out, I was only screening it with a couple of panzer regiments (I see no reasons to plough them into forests when I have infantry on hand). I see no benefit to trying to capture this at the moment, it's not causing me any issues other than having to screen it off. No point in redirecting forces from the main push.
jasonbroomer
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by jasonbroomer »

T14 Axis AGC

I screw up an attack, sending in a full fat division out of clear terrain to launch an attack from light mud, only to find that it doesn't have the strength to win with only 75% of its CPP.

t14 AGCf-ing mud.png
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Either I don't notice the impact of the mud, or I'm so stupid that I repeat the mistake. I guess that I am pleased that I screwed up the screen shot so that I can't share my embarrassment with you all. :oops:


I guess that it's the only way that I'm capable of learning anything. :idea: Check the odds before launching the attack (something I failed to do with the LAH in the north too)
jasonbroomer
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by jasonbroomer »

T14 Axis AGS

3 elite German divisions get retreated by the Russians, ouch! I hadn't expected that. Ammo is an important factor in combat and Vet is clearly using all his HQs on supply priority 4. The Soviets had stronger supplies than the Axis in 1941, but they weren't this uber strong. I think something is amiss here. Frustratingly the LfW didn't fly to protect my columns. although I have over 100 fighters in the zone, they may not have had sufficient supply to launch.

I need to readjust my approach to counter such aggression by Vet, I was really hoping that stacking 3 healthy elite divisions would have been enough :!:

t14 AGS Hmm 2pz and 1 motorised retreated despite soviets attacking out of lgt mud.png
t14 AGS Hmm 2pz and 1 motorised retreated despite soviets attacking out of lgt mud.png (3.04 MiB) Viewed 1605 times

Sevastapol appears only lightly defended. This is too good to be true if correct. (Apologies screen shot went astray)

I even do a scouting attack to confirm it, something that I very rarely do as Axis in 1941. The result is that I'm as delighted as the guest on the Jerry Springer show who's just found out that he's not the father.

I think this is a blunder not to defend Sevastopol. Yes, it will always fall but it is a level 5 fortress in mountains. It takes enormous resources to capture and ties up the 11th Army for weeks. Mores that, it won't even be necessary to isolate. This saves me supply resources and the planes can be sent off to the north. Vet hasn't made many mistakes this game, I consider this one. Yippee
Jango32
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by Jango32 »

It's not in the mountains, actually. It's a rough hex which is also a port. And that means high intensity combat modifiers will take place such as no retreat losses for the attacker if they fail.
Veterin
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by Veterin »

T14 Soviet Perspective

Regarding Stevastopol, i decided not to try and defend it this game. If i was in a position where i was able to hold Leningrad over the winter i probably would have put up a resistance in Stevastopol but i didn't want to lose a further 100k troops to isolation when i was already going to lose 200-300k around Leningrad.

Even in hindsight, i still think it was the right call evacuating what units i had at Stevastopol (around 60-70k from memory). This reinforced my position at Kerch which was of more strategic value to me. Stevastopol was going to fall with full bonus VP even if i tried to hold it too.

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The Axis grind towards Leningrad continues with the prize not far out of reach. Axis forces cross the major river (Neva) and now have a foothold within the Leningrad area. With a high CPP infantry division, motorised regiment having crossed into the heavy wooded hex, the on map defensive CV is 50 which means there is little I can do to stop further units crossing the river next turn. I would love to try but it’s just too risky

I can't recall if it was this turn or the next one but i built a fort at Osinoverts. The idea behind that was i would use it to hold my troops whilst i continued to evacuate 2 divisions per turn via the port. This will only work for as long as i can keep the port from remaining isolated though.

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A war of air attrition continues to play out over Lake Ladoga across both Axis and Soviet air phases. Despite the heavy losses to Axis super fighters, this is a trade I’m happy to continue making as the VSS can sustain these losses for longer than the LW can. So long as Leningrad remains un-isolated, the air/seas will be contested. In addition to degrading the LW power over the longer run, it will remove any easy manpower/material kills from isolation surrenders. Following my naval indirection, I have managed to flip key hexes to 4-3 or 4-4 which should get me through to next turn. My Soviet fighters in the area are depleted through my air phase so will put up little resistance through the axis turn unfortunately.
Last edited by Veterin on Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Veterin
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by Veterin »

T14 Soviet Perspective Cont...

Not much to update around AGC. The attack towards Rzhev last turn turned out to be an opportunistic encirclement of two soviet rifle divisions rather than a push towards those VC points. Axis infantry and motorised elements have since pulled back from that advance with only a few attacks along the line of contact. The line around AGC is becoming static so I’m not expecting a heavy focus in this sector from JB until 1942 given the efforts already occurring in AGN and AGS.

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Axis infantry divisions look like they’re starting to mass near Bryansk but I have a number of strong units in the area to counter attack if they continue pushing further. Axis forces have been advancing cautiously along the AGC/AGS front so the slow grind phase is starting to play out. Further south towards Kursk, the axis advance has pulled back so I’ve flipped some hexes back to Soviet this turn. This continues to be an ongoing theme were hexes in no mans land continue to be flipped by either side without an advance in some areas.

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The primary objective in this sector appears to be Kharkov/Belgorod. I was only able to do 1 counterattack in this area with the rest of my turn bringing in high CV divisions closer to Belgorod from the north and swapping them with my lower CV divisions as Kursk doesn’t seem at any immediate risk. The Donets has been crossed along the bend near Izyum so I need to be vigilant of a much wider encirclement if mobile forces start flowing through this bridgehead. That being said, from what I can see on recon, mobile elements are closer to Kharkov and Stalino.

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The far southern front was unexpectedly quiet this turn. The bridgehead made north of Stalino has been pulled back with Axis infantry leading the charge now following an epic battle last turn. A number of axis units are behind the line building strength so no doubt another surge will come soon.
Veterin
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by Veterin »

jasonbroomer wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:26 pm T14 Axis AGS

I need to readjust my approach to counter such aggression by Vet, I was really hoping that stacking 3 healthy elite divisions would have been enough :!:
Just in relation to this attack, yes there were 3 strong axis divisions but i still think it's reasonable that they were able to be defeated given the significant resources dedicated to do so (165k troops, 2k guns and 1k tanks). I was only able to concentrate so many units into the attack as the Axis units were surrounded from 5 hexes. Similarly, despite "winning", i still lost x6 the AFVs than Axis did.
Last edited by Veterin on Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hardradi
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by Hardradi »

This is great. That was an epic battle.

Vet, you are doing very well in the air war over Ladoga. Not sure how close the game is to the posts, are you able to show how much supply you have in your Leningrad depot(s)?
Veterin
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by Veterin »

Hardradi wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:19 am This is great. That was an epic battle.

Vet, you are doing very well in the air war over Ladoga. Not sure how close the game is to the posts, are you able to show how much supply you have in your Leningrad depot(s)?
We're doing a 6 turn delay but we're both sending turns so quickly at each other we're actually up to turn 24 now.

I don't have any other screenshots from that far back but i believe by this point my surplus supply at Leningrad was zero. The 2 single lines just weren't enough to sustain my armies in the area let alone build up a surplus. I couldn't build any lvl 2 fortifications and i couldn't build any airfields further north.

My partial success in the air war over Lake Ladoga was short lived though. As soon as JB put heavy Air Superiority missions on it became very one sided (especially after he isolated the port during his turn as i had a lot of my aircraft in the Leningrad airports).
jasonbroomer
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by jasonbroomer »

T15 Axis AGN

A much better turn in the air war thankfully.
t15 air war, that plan worked.png
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Having previously had my fighters escort my bombers, I now fly some on a supremacy mission which has the desired effect. I seem to remember something like this (or not happening) in the Battle of Britain, with the LfW suffering high losses as the fighters were instructed to escort the bombers. So a big plus to the game system to reflect this tactic.

Nevertheless some of these Soviet bombers are tough to take down, even unescorted. Given that they are massacred in T1, I wonder if everything is WAD here..?

t15 Russian bombers are tough.png
t15 Russian bombers are tough.png (2.19 MiB) Viewed 1426 times

Not that it is significant. What is significant is this blasted rain, which has undoubtedly prevented me isolating the port despite a massive bomber effort. Although Axis supplies are good, they cannot support a long air campaign.

t15 AGN not quite enough to isolate but that rain doesn't help.png
t15 AGN not quite enough to isolate but that rain doesn't help.png (1.9 MiB) Viewed 1426 times

Thankfully, the land campaign presses on. Thank you General Model and some potent support units.

t15 AGN sweet SUs.png
t15 AGN sweet SUs.png (1.83 MiB) Viewed 1426 times
Last edited by jasonbroomer on Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
jasonbroomer
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by jasonbroomer »

t14 Axis AGC

We don't have enough resources to press much in the centre. All I am really doing here is posturing.

t15 AGC Posturing infront of Smolensk.png
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I think with hindsight I should have brought together 2nd and 3rd Panzer for a push up the Smolensk road, however, it would concede a lot of land to the south around Bryansk, an area where I have invested FDB time.

Instead we have this very mediocre effort that is not placing any pressure on the Soviets in either the centre of south.
jasonbroomer
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by jasonbroomer »

jasonbroomer wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:33 pm centre of south.
*centre or south
jasonbroomer
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by jasonbroomer »

T15 Axis AGS

We surround Kharkov but we don't have the intention to take it as we can't hold it. This should be sufficient to displace its industry - the best we can do I think.
t15 AGS Isolating Kharkov without a plan to take it.png
t15 AGS Isolating Kharkov without a plan to take it.png (1.99 MiB) Viewed 1398 times

Instead we target our real objective, Stalino
t15 AGS Stalino is more of a target.png
t15 AGS Stalino is more of a target.png (2.03 MiB) Viewed 1398 times

and storm Sevastopol
t15 AGS Sevastopol stormed.png
t15 AGS Sevastopol stormed.png (1.21 MiB) Viewed 1398 times
(evidently I didn't do this last turn! we are playing with 5-6 turns delay which has spread to around 10 turns at the moment :oops: ). We nicely get to retreat the garrison to the hex covered by the pop up box, from where they can be captured next turn.
Veterin
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by Veterin »

T15 - Soviet Perspective

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Disaster has struck the Soviet forces. The encirclement of Leningrad is complete with the lifeline across Lake Ladoga now closed. I was able to open it in my turn but it will be shut again in the Axis turn which means another turn with no supply (including replacements for my VSS which I need to contest the air war here). I was only able to put up resistance to the naval indirection if my aircraft in Leningrad were able to be replenished each turn but they didn’t this turn due to being cut-off. There are now ~270k brave souls now isolated. A few turns ago there were ~500k units in the pocket but standard battle losses as well as Osinoverts port evacuations means the overall losses from encirclement is now lower a few turns later. Each turn I was able to move ~2 units out via naval transport so an unmitigated disaster has been reduced to marginally smaller unmitigated disaster. This is a less successful Soviet Dunkurk moment!

On reflection there are a few lessons I’ve learnt here. Be extra vigilant on protecting the double rails to Leningrad. On turn 7 my double rails were broken from a suicide motorised regiment that just had enough MP to reach the rails (literally 1 less and it would have fallen short!). This created a challenge in keeping the Leningrad front going as there was never any surplus supply in the area including Leningrad city. When it is clear Leningrad would fall as I had expected many turns ago, plan ahead on which units (if any) you are happy to let be encircled in defence. I’m glad I was able to get some units out but there will still be ~270k losses which is much higher than it should be. The lack of supply meant from the double rails being cut meant that my troops were never able to entrench as there was no spare supply to do so.

Not much action happening across most of the AGC front. Axis forces are well entrenched and only making minor attacks west of Vyazma every now and then. My recon shows there are still some motorised elements around the area but I haven’t scouted any Panzer divisions so perhaps they have been moved south to help with their advances there.

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Another huge battle around Stalino this turn. I surrounded a hex from 5 sides, 3 divisions stacked on each hex in order to concentrate 200k troops, 2.3k guns and 800 tanks in this battle. The VSS continue to contribute to battles around Satlino uncontested by the LW. Despite winning the battle, Soviets incur losses of 5-1 in manpower and 10-1 in AFVs. Despite the heavy soviet AFV losses, many were on obsolete models with the T26-M1937 and BT5 M1934 making up ~300 of the losses. There was still ~50 T34 losses and ~10KV1 losses which are my modern AFVs though.

Axis losses weren’t as high as I would like with most AFV models being destroyed 38(t)e or Stugs. Some good damage on enemy artillery and infantry guns though, especially the 150m howitzers given Axis only produce 15 per turn. The two Axis infantry had high CPP so at least that’s all been wiped back to 0 following this attack however my forces are in turn also weakened so hopefully my counterattack doesn’t result in a breakthrough of my lines next turn. On the whole I still think it was worth it as my AFV losses were obsolete models that aren’t used in the Tank Brigade TOE and Axis will have a hard time supplying those units (refits + supplies/ammo).

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Sevastopol had fallen with only a token force holding the fortress (~20k). Unfortunately, these units were not routed and instead retreated so they are now isolated and the remaining units will be destroyed next turn. I pulled out most units from Stevastopol to reinforce my fortress as Kerch. I was a little late in setting up my Kerch fortress but luckily I was able to leave some units at Foedosyisa to buy me time whilst I built up a fortress at Kerch. 2 turns ago I created a fortified region and attached 2 construction units to it to build up fort levels asap and that worked as 2 turns later, I have a lvl 2 fort. There are a lot of axis units here including a panzer corps so Kerch is still likely to fall but hopefully this can slow it down. In hindsight, I should have set up this strong point a few turns earlier.

Lastly, with the process of Guard conversions starting sometime shortly and the aggressive defence I’ve done so far this game, i have a number of units already eligible for guard status. I have 2 rifle divisions with 7 wins, 2 with 6 wins, 1 on 5 wins and a further 12 on 4 wins. I need to be extra careful not to get these divisions pocketed and destroyed as their win counter will reset if that happens.
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Seminole
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by Seminole »

Fascinating how the 'suicide rail run' affected the Leningrad campaign.

I can't recall if it was this turn or the next one but i built a fort at Osinoverts. The idea behind that was i would use it to hold my troops whilst i continued to evacuate 2 divisions per turn via the port. This will only work for as long as i can keep the port from remaining isolated though.


Is WitE2 different from WitW in that port isolation prevent unit movement?
In WitW naval control affected supply movement, but units could move through contested or controlled waters, just at increasing risk of interdiction (which can be painful, even completely fatal!)
"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
Veterin
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by Veterin »

Seminole wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:36 am Fascinating how the 'suicide rail run' affected the Leningrad campaign.

I can't recall if it was this turn or the next one but i built a fort at Osinoverts. The idea behind that was i would use it to hold my troops whilst i continued to evacuate 2 divisions per turn via the port. This will only work for as long as i can keep the port from remaining isolated though.


Is WitE2 different from WitW in that port isolation prevent unit movement?
In WitW naval control affected supply movement, but units could move through contested or controlled waters, just at increasing risk of interdiction (which can be painful, even completely fatal!)
I had hoped that the fortress would remain unisolated for longer but that was not the case unfortunately. From memory i was still able to move units out even though it was isolated over the water hexes. I recall seeing a pop-up message that one of my units was hit whilst transporting through the contested waters though and i lost a few thousand men.
Jango32
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Re: Bish Bash Boche - A 41 GC JB (A) & Veterin (S)

Post by Jango32 »

You can evacuate that way even when the port is isolated, but you might simply not have enough MPs to reach another port because of the naval interdiction points.
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