Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

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EricGuitarJames
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by EricGuitarJames »

Didz wrote
Well I can't comment about Wargaming in Canada but here in the UK there was always a distinct difference between Wargames and Boardgames. They were two seperate hobbies attracting quite different players. It was only the computer that caused the boardgame to be reclassified as a Wargame when the first computer boardgames appeared on the shelves.


Well that's not my experience. The wargame club I belonged to in the '80s played both (as well as a bit of RPG for good measure[:)]) and it wasn't as if we had two separate 'factions' as it were. I very much enjoyed both types of gaming although I leant towards 'table-top' back then.

Didz wrote
The single most important feature in the success of any computer wargame is the ability to play with and against other human players. As recent wargames like Shogun Totalwar and Medieval Totalwar have shown it simply isn't feasible to play a full scale tactical wargame, let alone a campaign over the internet against other players in real time. It is the absence of that ability which prevented Creative Assemblies efforts being truly awesome.


'Highway to the Reich' gives you that, even on a 'dial-up' connection. It isn't what makes it a great game but it is a facility that widens the playing experience. I can't comment on the 'Total War' games but the upcoming 'Rome' game is supposedly very good to play online.
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by Pippin »

ORIGINAL: Lava

Hi!

Interesting Pippin, any idea why they never released the code to TOAW (or did I miss something)?

This is a game which serious modders would have a field day with.

Ray (alias Lava)

I do not remember a definit answere, but I could give you a guess from my experiences with Hasbro. Simple answere, some guy with a suit & tie with a business/ecconomics piece of paper out of grad school, decided it is not worth it to put an extra coder asside to fix up a game that they believe is maketable as is.

You want a better game? Buy the next version!
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: Pippin

SSI hit the gold-mine for Panzer General that is for sure. But after version II, for some reason they just let it all go downhill to shit.

As for Talonsoft, they deserved to die, and let me tell you some tid-bits on why..

Norm was wanting to do some more tweaks to the TOAW when it had been out for a while, and also have more patches made, unfortunately Talonsoft refused and kept the code locked in the safe. Oddly enough, they finaly did make a fix (direct X fix), but they were somewhat forced too. You see, TOAW had a tendancy to self-uninstall itself right after install. You guys remember that one? Yah, pretty bad.

Shame they also didnt fix the NT CD issue. What a surprise it is for people who try to install TOAW and they get the error that TOAW is a non NT compatible cd! Sheesh! And yes, this even occures on non-NT workstations.

But wait, it gets even better.... For the person who is total confused as to what is going on with these issues, and tries to research the Talonsoft forums, GOOD LUCK! For many weeks on end, (months) the forums would be down, offline. Accounting problems, and problems finding a new forum company to host, etc.. more piss poor management.. Lets just say, you were LUCKY to see the proper TOAW forum running.

Ironicaly, when they did go back up a few times, you could see some posts debating if Talonsoft was PURPOSELY trying to go bankrupt.

Add in the fact that Talonsoft then decided suddenly they would spend most their efforts on jumping into the 3D bandwagon like everyone else... BAD IDEA! Went from a perfect market to one flooded with competitors.

Oh, and btw, none of this has to do with any bias due to Talonsoft screwing over Matrix Games on the Napoleon Era wargame a while back.

I think i'll pause the list here, but feel free to add any anti-Talonsoft tid-bids, hehe.

I know how you feel.

I was a big supporter of SSI and Talonsoft. They made some of the best wargames I still play today.

I was actually on the forums for SSI and Talonsoft back in the day, so I saw a lot of what was happening "first hand". It wasn't pretty.

To this day I still scratch my head over those companies.

In partcular SSI had a loyal following; they were making games that sold, and that people wanted to play. Yet, whenever they developed a popular game, they would drop it shortly thereafter. Again, just look at the popularity of PG2 today. All SSI needed to do was to keep enhancing that game and people would have bought it. . .

I have also heard directly from people who actually worked for the company. [;)]

I feel there are more reasons why those companies went belly-up than because they were making wargames.
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by Pippin »

To those beating up on SSI and Talonsoft, I guess I missed all the details.

Well I am not beating up on SSI, though Panzer 3D (Assault) was done very poorly. It is interresting how the earlier versions were quite a big hit etc. Yet when they got to the 3'rd draft of the series things went down hill. They were supposed to allow online players to play tcp/ip like in version II. Funy thing is, they never had any real beta testing, and found out the hardway that the tcp/ip thing only tends to work if you are on the same tiny lan & timezone. Rediculous.

Couple into that, some typical bugs, not to mention you have no way of even being able to check entrenchement levels (you must keep it all in your own memory!) etc. Some more piss poor elements I wont get into, and you can see that SOMEONE was definitely trying to kill off the series. Though I'm no expert on the matter, could be after version II SSI had nothing to do with the series anymore, not sure.

As for Talonsoft, perhaps I am biased as I did have a few grunges. Would be interresting to have someone from Talonsoft here to perhaps give their side of the story. Not sure I'd take their word for it, but there perhaps is a small chance I could come to reason with them.
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by riverbravo »

Well I can't comment about Wargaming in Canada but here in the UK there was always a distinct difference between Wargames and Boardgames. They were two seperate hobbies attracting quite different players. It was only the computer that caused the boardgame to be reclassified as a Wargame when the first computer boardgames appeared on the shelves

Yes,I also played more miniature wargames than board games.

Half of the fun is creating the terrain and painting the miniatures.

It can get tough finding 25mm ww2 figures.

I have a couple of squads worth of Americans and Germans.

I liked to use the playing card method.

Depending on the size of the game one card would represent either a squad or a single man.Shuffle the cards after each round and put them face down.Pull a card,hmmm,2 of diamonds,Thats the 30 cal team,that team gets to make their move.

That is a fun system.You can never tell who will go next.

We went all out to creatw good battlefields.Also,we took turns placing terrain around the battlefield.

that was some fun gaming.I still really like that style of play.
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by Didz »

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake
That is a great story. So you are saying you meet in person for these team Napoleonic games..or is it handled live on-line or by PBEM?

It was a PBEM. The moderator completed all the moves and determined the result of actions etc.

And then notified each player of the results. Positional information for tactical play was displayed using the Talonsoft game system with the maps and units edited to reflect the actual terrain. Strategic play was handled in a larger scale map. I 'm not sure where that came from it might have been scanned in from a boardgame.

If your interested I still have most of the email text which went back and forth and have listed it below. The only thing I misled you about in my earlier message the fact that I was playing Dohktyarov not Bagration. (memory playing tricks again)

III Corps
South of Keidany en route to Kovno, 15th July 1812

GOC IV Corps, III Cav Corps

I acknowledge your information and have passed it to Gen. Barclay. My Corps
will be at Kovno tomorrow where it has been ordered to support II Corps.

If it is confirmed that the French have crossed the Neimen in strength SW of
Rossieny I shall seek his approval to march to your assistance. In the
meantime keep me informed of developments.

And here the famous sequence of orders leading up to my heroic assault:

The French are withdrawing from Vilna. Attack the French at once to try to tie them. They have to be prevented from escaping to the Northwest at all costs. They are eluding the trap and have to be stopped.

General Barclay de Tolly
++++
Your excellency,

In obedience with your instructions the 7th Div are attempting to seize the town but I beg to report that far from withdrawing the French are in fact defending Vilna most vigorously and are actually attempting to secure a
bridgehead over the river to the south.

I fear our attack may have the opposite effect to which you intend and could actually prompt the French to abandon the field before the I Corps arrive to block their escape. With the river between us there is little that can be
done to prevent this should they so decide.

Dokhtyarov
++++
[After spotting that my 7th Division had advanced on Vilna without my orders]
Riding up to Gen. Kaptsevich I shall greet him warmly and ask him to provide me with an update on the local situation and his current orders and intentions.

Amongst other things this should confirm whether he has been ordered to launch a full scale assault on the town by Gen. Barclay, or whether the current deployment of the 7th Division is a misunderstanding of my earlier instructions.

How I respond will therefore depend on the content of his report.

Dokhtyarov
++++
[Reply from the Moderator]
You can see the situation of 7th Division.

Kaptsevich has very much the same order as you from Barclay, sent directly to him. He has committed one of his three brigades to an attack to prevent the French from withdrawing by disrupting them and stop lateral movement to the
bridge (and stopping them having breakfast).

One battery is moving to the right flank to fire along the river line, the only clear field of view and allowing flanking fire to the citadel, while the others are staying among the infantry.
++++
[Not happy at having the chain of command by-passed in this way, I decide to reaffirm my own command]
Verbal Order to Gen. Kaptsevich

I shall acknowledge the report of Gen. Kaptsevich and instruct him to withdraw his artillery from the streets of Vilna and to have them deploy on the high ground north of the bridge over the Tigoda stream from whence they are to engage any troops moving between Vilna and Ofadoe.

He is then to invest the Citadel by occupying the surrounding buildings with skirmishers whilst 3rd Brigade is to retire and reform. Whilst the 2nd Brigade is to launch a direct assault to seize the eastern threshold of the bridge.
++++
[Recognising that I have no choice but to comply with Barclay's order]
Verbal Order to Gen. Kaptsevich

The 2nd Brigade will move forward and prepare for a direct assault to seize the redoubt (Citadel) guarding the eastern threshold of the bridge. I shall dismount and lead this attack personally at the head of the Libau Regiment. But I wish to wait until the Sofia Regiment is in position and ready to join us so that the full weight of the brigade can be brought to bear in a single assault.

I shall explain all this to Gen. Kaptsevich and instruct him that should the assault fail he is to try again with the 1st Brigade.

(Hopefully common sense will have prevailed by then)
++++
An aide is to be sent to Gen. Likhachev informing him of my intentions and instructing him to be ready to assume command of the Corps should I fall.

Another is to be sent to Gen. Tschulski commanding the 1st Brigade 24th Division informing him of the impending assault and requesting that he maintains the pressure on the French right flank.

A third is to be sent to Gen Barclay informing him of my intentions.

(presumably all these aides can be briefed together and sent their separate ways in fact I see this as some sort huddle where I am brief everyone on what I intend and then send them off on their various tasks)

Dokhtyarov
++++
Once the 2nd Brigade is assembled, my team has been briefed and the couriers dispatched I shall ride over to the Libau Regiment and present my compliments to General Balmen informing him that I wish to address the men. When I have their attention I shall give them the standard 'We're all going to die hero's speech'.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Soldiers of the 2nd Brigade, we have been given a shitty job to do. If it could be avoided then I would have avoided it but there is no alternative. Just down the road there is a regiment of Dutchmen defending a bridge. They are the 124th Regiment and they are a long way from home, they are scared, and they are homesick. They are too scared to face us in the open so they have built themselves a wall to hide behind. We are going to show them that a wall is no protection from the soldiers of the 2nd Brigade. We are going forward, we are going to cross that wall and we are going to drive those Dutchmen into the river with the points of our bayonets. No man is to fire his musket until he has crossed that wall, no man is to stop and help a comrade who has fallen. This will be a bloody business that wall is the key to the French position they will not give it up easily but take it we must. I am not prepared to send you where I would not go myself therefore I shall lead this attack in person all I ask is that you follow me and avenge me should I fall before you. Now prepare yourselves and lets show these Dutchmen how Russian soldiers fight.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I shall then dismount and pass my horse to my batman or whoever to take to the rear. I shall then join the Commander of the Libau Regiment and remind him that his men are not to fire until we are inside the redoubt. I shall then ask him if his regiment has any singers and assuming it does I shall instruct him to have them sing the most popular raunchy song in their repertoire. We may not be able to shoot them hidden behind those walls but we can damn well give them earache.

Once all is prepared I shall draw my sword throw away the scabbard and give the signal to advance.
+++++
[The advance begins. Message to the Moderator]

I'm in no position to issue any orders this turn so I shall just make sure my sword chains are out of the way and won't trip me up as I walk. I've already fallen off me horse today so I don't really want to show myself up still further by tripping over and going face first in the mud in front of the entire 2nd Brigade.

Glad to see the artillery are moving off and the 3rd Brigade are reforming.

Bit disappointed that Tschulshi's Brigade are not engaging the enemy more closely I don't want the French given the freedom to move against our flank. Hopefully, he will move his brigade forward as we commence the assault. The
battle at the southern bridge seems to be going well. Likhachev and Uvarov are working well together on that flank, I still feel we ought to be seeking to exploit that situation rather than wasting lives here. I just hope the situation in the town doesn't go completely pear shaped and ruin it for everyone.

No point worrying about that now I shall just compose myself for the off.

I hope the French haven't done something really clever like mine the approaches to the redoubt, mind you surely if they had been that clever they would have demolished the surrounding houses to create a clear fire zone for their artillery.

I don't think we stand a cat in hells chance of carrying that redoubt but its the only way to deny the French the bridge. At the very least the presence of the 2nd Brigades assault column will make it difficult for them to move troops through the redoubt and over the river. Unless of course they have boats but its too late to worry about that now. If we do by some
miracle carry the redoubt then we probably won't be able to hold it anyway with that artillery battery on the far side of the river waiting to spray canister into any defenders through the open rear face. Wouldn't it be ironic if I ended up ordering an assault over the bridge in order to take those guns after all my moaning about the stupidity of doing so.

I was amused to notice that group of French staff officers cowering on the far side of the river. It appears that apart from one lone General the French on our side of the river have been abandoned by their leaders.

Clearly the French Generals are not so keen on dying for their Emperor as we are. I think the French troops should suffer a morale penalty for the cowardly example being shown by their officers. Don't you? (Well its worth a try)

Now where's my hip-flask I need something to stop my hand shaking.

Dokhtyarov
++++
[Approaching the Citadel. - Message to Moderator]

I have no change of orders and probably would not be in position to issue any even if I had.

Looks like the fight at the southern bridge is going well. I believe we just captured a battalion of the 2e Ligne (apparently that regiment had the strange distinction of serving at the Battle of Trafalgar when it was on Naval duty)

As for our little party in the town. I think the French General Staff must have heard my taunts and I note that they have now crossed the bridge to join their troops in the redoubt. But I'm a bit puzzled as to why all the defenders have just turned their backs to us, unless of course they are preparing to do a mass 'mooney'. Now that would be frightening, all those spotty French butts hanging over the parapet.

Dokhtyarov.
++++
[Response from the Moderator]

So, you spotted the latest French deliberate mistake. I have to admit I can't fathom their tactics from top to bottom. On which subject: must revise the icons by adding mooning infantry - more effective in line than column, I think.

It seems we have some inexperienced players among the French who should perhaps have been given commands among those farther from the action for their first time out. One, commanding at the southern bridge, has given up entirely. I suppose he realised he was only embarrassing himself with his tactics and lack of grasp all round. The strange thing was his mode of exit: I received an email from his address telling me he was unable to use his email and would not be in touch, signed 'his wife'. Found it too hard to make a tactical withdrawal in more ways than one, it seems.
++++
[Message from the Moderator: After the assault]

Well, the speech seemed to work. After clearing the enemy from the redoubt you peer through the settling dust and dispersing smoke to the other side of the river to see......that the French you have isolated are far from finished, though in considerable disorder and really only in need of having their hopelessness demonstrated to them. I will give them a turn or two and see how things stand before deciding who, if any, flee, surrender or fight on.

I'm afraid this hasn't been pleasant for the French and player morale may be waning, so once this attack is fought through to a conclusion I may ask everyone their intentions and adjudicate what may be the end of the battle.
++++

In fact the French threw in the towel and ordered a general withdrawal abandoning all the troops still on the Russian side of the river to the tender mercies of a Russian prison camp.
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by Didz »

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames
Well that's not my experience. The wargame club I belonged to in the '80s played both (as well as a bit of RPG for good measure[:)]) and it wasn't as if we had two separate 'factions' as it were. I very much enjoyed both types of gaming although I leant towards 'table-top' back then.

So did the one I ran. But the two hobbies were distinctly different. Personally, I played both tabletop games and boardgames, as did many others. But we also had members who refused to have anything to do with 'playing with toy soldiers' and those who refused to socialise with 'those bloody hex-counters'.

The only thing the club did do was ban the playing of boardgames on club nights, as we found it disrupted the Wargaming activity and as far the the club were concerned the club night was for those who needed the space of the hall we hired for large scale miniatures games. Boardgame nights were held round members houses as they didn't need a large area.
'Highway to the Reich' gives you that, even on a 'dial-up' connection. It isn't what makes it a great game but it is a facility that widens the playing experience. I can't comment on the 'Total War' games but the upcoming 'Rome' game is supposedly very good to play online.

Be interested to hear how Highway of the Reich manages to cope with presumably days of detailed game play in real time over the internet.

The Totalwar games provide a very limited multi-player option where individual battles can be fought in real-time over the internet. But these battles are very basic slugfests that are over within an hour. There is no option to play the campaign itself against other players because of the complexity of trying to switch from turn based PBEM play for campaign moves into real time tactical play for the battles and back again.

To actually play several months of simulated military campaign let alone several hundred years as in MTW is just not feasible unless players were able to spend several days on-line without sleep.
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by Cap Mandrake »

Didz;

Interesting exchange. This part is hilarious [:D]
It seems we have some inexperienced players among the French who should perhaps have been given commands among those farther from the action for their first time out. One, commanding at the southern bridge, has given up entirely. I suppose he realised he was only embarrassing himself with his tactics and lack of grasp all round. The strange thing was his mode of exit: I received an email from his address telling me he was unable to use his email and would not be in touch, signed 'his wife'. Found it too hard to make a tactical withdrawal in more ways than one, it seems.

The French player may have had a case of defeatis interruptis

I was involved in a similar thing using Sid Meir's Gettysburg to resolve tactical battles in a recreation of the Seven Days Battles in the US Civil War. The role playing is really fun. Check out the "reports" page. www.aovkershaw.homestead.com

I don't know a whole lot about Napoleonic battles, but if you are looking for players for future scenarios. Let me know.
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by EricGuitarJames »

Be interested to hear how Highway of the Reich manages to cope with presumably days of detailed game play in real time over the internet.


Well at the slowest game speed, 2 hours of play equates to about 8 hours of game-time. I recently played H2H against an experienced HTTR player and we both posted AAR's on the game section of this site. The game itself was a 5-day affair and it took us approximately 5 weeks to complete it - it would have been 4 but for a lightning strike taking out my adsl modem and phone-line.
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by Les_the_Sarge_9_1 »

Wish I actually knew locals that wanted to do miniatures. I built that darn table for a reason heheh.

I even went out and picked up the Barbarossa game for miniatures.

I would likely be a WW2 miniatures fan.

Collecting the vehicles and soldiers would not deter me.

But just don't expect me to spring for lousy over priced Warhammer junk.

It would have to be properly made models.
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by Didz »

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Wish I actually knew locals that wanted to do miniatures. I built that darn table for a reason heheh.

There are still clubs around but Warhammer and Warhammer 40K really knocked the stuffing out of the market.

Its interesting too that these games also consider themselves wargames. So, if the interpretation of a wargame is any game which depicts war then the hobby if still florishing.
It would have to be properly made models.

To be fair the Warhammer miniatures are extremely well sculpted and cast. Far superior to the wargame miniatures we had to make do with in the 70's. I remember having to sit for hours with a nail file removing the flash from my figures before I could even begin to paint them.

I actually played Warhammer and Warhammer 40K with my children for several years and I now run a Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay game but I would never class it as wargaming.

The problem is that it attracts players when they are in their early teens and retains their interest into maturity whereas very few historical wargames groups would even be interested in recruiting youngsters into their games.

However, I believe if there were good quality wargame programs on the store shelves there are enough of there youngsters interested in military history to buy them and revitalise the hobby.
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by Didz »

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Didz;

Interesting exchange. This part is hilarious [:D]
It seems we have some inexperienced players among the French who should perhaps have been given commands among those farther from the action for their first time out. One, commanding at the southern bridge, has given up entirely. I suppose he realised he was only embarrassing himself with his tactics and lack of grasp all round. The strange thing was his mode of exit: I received an email from his address telling me he was unable to use his email and would not be in touch, signed 'his wife'. Found it too hard to make a tactical withdrawal in more ways than one, it seems.

The French player may have had a case of defeatis interruptis

Yes! I gather the players on the French team were really coming unravelled at this point. Their CinC was not providing very good leadership and many of their less experienced players were not receiving enough guidance, or even orders in some cases.

The Battle of Vilna was just one of a whole series of appallng defeats that saw whole sections of the French Army falling into Russian hands, and French players resigning in disgust right left and centre.

The 1812 Campaign was abandoned a few weeks after Vilna as the French team had really lost any hope of getting close to Moscow.

It was after this that I bravely volunteered to change side and replace Napoleon for the Eylau Campaign and tried to restore some bottle into the French ranks.
I was involved in a similar thing using Sid Meir's Gettysburg to resolve tactical battles in a recreation of the Seven Days Battles in the US Civil War. The role playing is really fun. Check out the "reports" page. www.aovkershaw.homestead.com

Ah! I played Gettysburg for a while. It was fun but lacked any proper command and control structure so the battles were totally chaotic for the most part with every player doing their own thing. Worked ok! for ACW but perhaps not for Napoleonic.
I don't know a whole lot about Napoleonic battles, but if you are looking for players for future scenarios. Let me know.

Oh! I dont' run these moderated games I just play in them occassionally.

If you are interested you need to visit the NHWC (Napoleonic Historical Wargame Club) website at http://nhwc.20m.com/

It includes a full battle report for the Battle of Vilna http://nhwc.20m.com/1812/vilna/vilna.htm
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by Les_the_Sarge_9_1 »

I was not on target enough I guess :) The Warhammer figures are ok (still over priced), it's their models of tanks (or what they call tanks) that are sheer refuse.

I was asked to assemble one by a local. Paid me 40 bucks to do it well for him. I told him when I was done to not expect me to make another.
Lousy craftsmanship, parts that are over worked from model to model, not being made anew, just retread parts. Even getting paid well to make them was not enough for me.

And I have made models professionally, I know models hehe.

Played the rolegame Warhammer though, it was nicely thought out though.

If I was to game in miniatures, it would likely be 72nd scale based as there is just such a wealth of stuff open in that scale. Miniature soldiers would not have quite the level of detail of course, but sometimes you just don't get all that you want :)
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by *Lava* »

Hi!

I got into painting Historix Napoleonic figures when I was in my teens (a long time ago). From there I moved into 15mm ACW, Ancient and Napoleonic table top wargaming. What a blast, a ping pong table full of troops, 3 players aside, swiging beer and the stereo pumping out military music.

I've pointed literally thousands of minatures in 30 years. The last ones I did were 28mm Warhammer space marines. But Sarge is right, the price went through the roof, and this thing called computer wargaming started competing for my spare time....

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by ravinhood »

Wargame designers shoulnt care if people dont want to upgrade...its there loss,not the designers.

LOL you best wake up and smell the roses, it's quite a lot to do with both. Wargamers are a different breed of people/players, they aren't your techies types, they are hardcore grogs of the genre, not of the technolgoy to run them.

Pass up on the wargamers that aren't into tech advancement $$ as much as they are into wargame advancement $$ and you will have designers taking a loss in profits.

You can look at Les's statement as he is just one hard-nose that doesn't want to conform, but, there are many more of us out here that feel the same way. I'm not going to sink a few hundred dollars into a machine just to play a game with "pretty graphics". I've got a collection of board wargames and computer wargames that can last me the rest of my life.

If you really want to get "technical" about it though, there's really nothing NEW that has been released in years that isn't a copycat version of something that's already been done to death before. The mere changes are in the complextion of the games, moreso than in the playvalue of them. I have computer games with AI's much better than any I have seen in the present or the last five years.

For instance how many versions of Gary Grigsby's Pacific war is needed? What's he on now his 3rd or 4th remake of this very same game idea???

How many times are they going to remake the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich in different renditions, but, still the same game.

About the only game I've really enjoyed over the past umpteen years is Steel Panthers WaW series, so why do I need "Combat Leader"? Oh thas right it's a techie advance in graphics isn't it? ;)

I've been looking at "Battles in Normandy", so how much different is the outcome of it going to be over "Operation Crusader" or "Battle for Nomandy"??

I've got "Second Front", so why do I need another version of "War in Russia"??

I have TOAW elite, why do I need TOAW4?

I've been looking at Matrix games for awhile now, but, nothing compels me to purchase one over what I already have. Gawd knows I have more than I can or ever will finish as it is now.

The techie age likes "graphics" and really doesn't seem to care so much about complexity, which is sad. Even sadder that developers rely on the techie age for how they design games nowadays. Sad that no one in 20+ years has worked on an AI that really learns and presents a challenge to the player every game, except in a game of chess or checkers and maybe backgammon or card games. ;) You'd think someone would want to go down in history for the recognition of creating a wargaming AI or really any strategy gaming AI that could beat the players more times than the players could beat it.

But, at any rate, it's both the customers and the designers that makeup the wargaming market as a whole, most of us saw what happened to Avalon Hill and SPI, two of the best board gaming development companies out there for years and well now they are gone. So don't think it can't happen to the computer age of development companies as well.
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by EricGuitarJames »

ravin - I can only suggest you try HTTR. The command structure, the AI (both of the enemy and your subordinates), the combat modelling, the real-time nature of the game, and the overall 'feel' of the game are all superior to any wargame produced up to now. And it shouldn't break your average 'grognards' system (my old P3 650mhz system played it fine).
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mjk428
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by mjk428 »

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Wargame designers shoulnt care if people dont want to upgrade...its there loss,not the designers.

LOL you best wake up and smell the roses, it's quite a lot to do with both. Wargamers are a different breed of people/players, they aren't your techies types, they are hardcore grogs of the genre, not of the technolgoy to run them.

Pass up on the wargamers that aren't into tech advancement $$ as much as they are into wargame advancement $$ and you will have designers taking a loss in profits.

You can look at Les's statement as he is just one hard-nose that doesn't want to conform, but, there are many more of us out here that feel the same way. I'm not going to sink a few hundred dollars into a machine just to play a game with "pretty graphics". I've got a collection of board wargames and computer wargames that can last me the rest of my life.

If you really want to get "technical" about it though, there's really nothing NEW that has been released in years that isn't a copycat version of something that's already been done to death before. The mere changes are in the complextion of the games, moreso than in the playvalue of them. I have computer games with AI's much better than any I have seen in the present or the last five years.

For instance how many versions of Gary Grigsby's Pacific war is needed? What's he on now his 3rd or 4th remake of this very same game idea???

How many times are they going to remake the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich in different renditions, but, still the same game.

About the only game I've really enjoyed over the past umpteen years is Steel Panthers WaW series, so why do I need "Combat Leader"? Oh thas right it's a techie advance in graphics isn't it? ;)

I've been looking at "Battles in Normandy", so how much different is the outcome of it going to be over "Operation Crusader" or "Battle for Nomandy"??

I've got "Second Front", so why do I need another version of "War in Russia"??

I have TOAW elite, why do I need TOAW4?

I've been looking at Matrix games for awhile now, but, nothing compels me to purchase one over what I already have. Gawd knows I have more than I can or ever will finish as it is now.

The techie age likes "graphics" and really doesn't seem to care so much about complexity, which is sad. Even sadder that developers rely on the techie age for how they design games nowadays. Sad that no one in 20+ years has worked on an AI that really learns and presents a challenge to the player every game, except in a game of chess or checkers and maybe backgammon or card games. ;) You'd think someone would want to go down in history for the recognition of creating a wargaming AI or really any strategy gaming AI that could beat the players more times than the players could beat it.

But, at any rate, it's both the customers and the designers that makeup the wargaming market as a whole, most of us saw what happened to Avalon Hill and SPI, two of the best board gaming development companies out there for years and well now they are gone. So don't think it can't happen to the computer age of development companies as well.

I have to wonder how/why you anti-tech people ever purchased computers in the first place.

Yeah, I played some great games in the early 80's on the computer that technically were all I ever needed. However, I prefer optical & hard drives to tape drives. I prefer the mouse interface to just the keyboard. I prefer CD quality surround sound audio to beeps & squawks. And I prefer high-res multi-color battle maps to low-res monochrome.

I agee that not enough attention has been paid to things like playability & AI by the game designers. However, I haven't seen anyone advocating that graphics should trump all else. The question was, to paraphrase, "are the hardware requirements killing the wargame genre"? Those hardware requirements could just as easily be the result of advanced AI and improved user interface, as graphics. Graphics are just the most obvious and frequent example of why the specs get higher.

On one hand you have the several hundreds of dollars profit the extreme anti-tech 'grognards' represent and OTOH you have the many thousands of potential dollars profit of the average gamer. It seems an easy business decision to me. Especially when the anti-tech claim to already have all they need in their wargame library. It just doesn't seem to me reasonable that this subgroup be catered to.

As for the techie age being satisfied with just graphics, it's obvious that the people making such claims really don't know what is available. Full Spectrum Warrior on a $150 XBox blows awayComputer Ambush on the good old $1500 Apple - and it even costs $10 less than Computer Ambush did.
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Arjuna
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by Arjuna »

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
If you really want to get "technical" about it though, there's really nothing NEW that has been released in years that isn't a copycat version of something that's already been done to death before. The mere changes are in the complextion of the games, moreso than in the playvalue of them. I have computer games with AI's much better than any I have seen in the present or the last five years.

ravinhood,

Do yourself a favour and check out HTTR. I know I'm blowing my own trumpet here, but as the reviewers say it is revolutionary. What is so revolutionary about it is its AI. It's the best in the business bar none. When combined with the hierarchical command system, orders delay and pausable continuous time game play you have a system which captures the real feel of operational warfare. You have an AI powerful enough that you can give an AI controlled subordinate an order and know that it will do a reasonable job of developing a plan, reacting and reasessing. This frees you up from all the micro-managing that so afflicts other wargames. Of course you can still micro-manage when and where you like, but you don't have to. Now that's NEW for wargames by any definition.
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dinsdale
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by dinsdale »

ORIGINAL: mjk428
I have to wonder how/why you anti-tech people ever purchased computers in the first place.

:thup: Great post.

Just to add, no vendor of any product will ever be beholden to people who chose not to buy. What's the point in any game maker reacting to comments from non-customers? Listening to those who are stuck in 1974 is as relevant to the game industry as my opinion on feminine hygene products.

Fog-of-war, WEGO, simultaneous turns, etc, these are all wargame innovations dependent on the PC. Clearer graphics and interfaces too. Someone mentioned that he never played a game because the graphics appealed, well I have probably missed a lot of games because the graphics/interface was too much work to bother with it.

I imagine conversations like this taking place with the last 5 guys making buggy whips, entirely oblivious that their position was irrelevant to the world and grumbling that innovation was killing transportation.
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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

Post by riverbravo »

Easy Eights were producing decent ww2 figures.The only downside being is the faces look a bit cartoonish but everything else is pretty good.

72nd scale isnt bad at all either.As Les said,72 scale has a lot of stuff thats easy to get a hold of.

The warhammer and WH 40k miniatures are great if you want to paint them.I still have interest in painting some of there stuff.Its a good change from doing military models.You get to use different colors and they are still flat colors.I HATE working with any type of gloss paint.Also citadel (same people who makes GW figures) makes pretty good paints and washes.BUT,like everything else its a bit pricey.

I saw a game at the local games day and these dudes were playing a ww2 miniatures game in 1/35 scale.They were using strait up models and figures and the table was HUGE.It was a bit to big IMO.They gave me a free set of skirmish rules and they really sucked.
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