Flanker Mod 6.22.41

[JagdFlanker]

unfortunatly i havn't been able to do much of anything lately - i'm almost wrapping up 8 days of work in a row and the basement of our apartment flooded a few weeks ago so i'v been dealing with that. i don't mind, since when i start the 'programming' WiR becomes almost all encompassing to me and it's sort of nice to redirect my brain for a little to take a step back and refocus - it helps keep all my changes as simple as possible. but i'm almost done all the 'life crap' and i'm starting to get excited to get back on the horse! i get tuesday off and i'v been looking forward to sitting down and get the process started again. i'm very excited to be using the possum oob for this version, and along with deniss's great aircraft stats and the new map i hope the mod breathes new life into PBEM games!

after i get the first version of the new mod up i am going to research all the AFVs again and re-calculate the armour using this formula:

hull*2 + superstructure*2 + turret*2 + mantlet, then divide by 7

all armour thickness will be adjusted for slope. i'm sorta guessing at the formula - any comments on that?
i was thinking any AFVs 2.2m tall or lower should get a +1 defence for having a low sillouette. perhaps all AFVs 3m tall or higher should get a -1.
AFVs with 60-79mm average side armour get +1 def. 80mm+ side armour get +2.

the 2 main sources i will use are:

http://www.onwar.com/tanks/

http://www.panzerworld.net/
goto 'tables and statistics', then 'armour and arty', then finally 'relative armour thickness'
i just use the provided chart as opposed to the program since it's easier to use.

[crusher]

sounds great i cant wait to give it a try keep up the good work thanks

[JagdFlanker]

well, i'm 3/4 through the programming and everything is going smooth so far. all i have left that's major is straightening out the factories, then the detail editing begins. i'v been catching a few details about the possum oob that are a little disappointing - like the romanians have a StuG Bn in their Pz Div, but they didn't get StuG's until 1943! i delayed it a year, but it's strange nevertheless. after i found out the R-35 was not used in barbarossa i renamed it to 'Axis Tanks' to represent the various hungarian, romanian, and finnish tanks more accurately. perhaps 'axis tanks' should get a factory too as hungary kept trying to build their own Turin tank and such, but i can't lock it and really the overall production was small so it's unnecisary.
hopefully the mod will be workable in a week!

[JagdFlanker]

spending a lot of time smoothing out things, fixing details and such. combined the Pz 38(t)a and 38(t)f into the Pz 38(t) since it's obsolete anyways. since there should be at least 1 italian Jpz i used the extra slot to make the L.40 47/32 Atk-6 Dfd-5. they were converted L 6/40 light tank chasis' with a 47mm gun, and i have 300 them appearing in 4 units starting in mid '42 (1 unit appears every 5 weeks). 280 were made, but it will also represent the other later Jpz's the italians made so i may add more total later. they will not be produced in any factories, and cost 11. i'm looking forward to making the ikon! the M13/40 and M15/42 might as well use the same ikon, as they are already the same, just diff colours.

combined both the Pz IVd/e. i have no plans for the extra slot.

i'v been adjusting the map as well. in 3.3 the map is about 29 converted rail hexes away from moscow, and my adjustments have increased it to about 33 so operation typhoon will start at about the same time germany really did start it. an experienced player should still get moscow, but it hopefully will be a last second thing now. the rail on the map sorta follows germany's historical path more, so it should be interesting - of course i gotta play with it to see how it works out.

[Denniss]

What's the tank data of this combined Pz38(t) ?
Do you use the later tank data with it's bolted-on extra armor ?
What's with the Pz-38(t) factory ?

Just a small hint : the Pz-II and both Pz-38(t) sit on the convertible slots - will be converted to Marder II and III starting 1/1943

[JagdFlanker]

the Pz 38(t) is just the latest one (atk-7 def-5) - i thought i'd treat it like the russian out-dated tanks and give the entire series the benefit of the doubt. the Pz 38(t)a is now the L.40 47/32, and i'm not worried about it automatically converting since the L.40 goes in italian units (in italy only) in big numbers so if the pools don't have enough to 'swallow' the entire unit there should be no problem. still got the Pz 38 factory - converts to the Pz IVg.

but i guess it's all for naught now - i copied all my directories to my second hard disk yesterday, formatted my c:, and installed a fresh copy of xp. however when i copied the info back, it would seem that my entire war in russia directory with all my work was almost completely corrupted (f***ing hell!) and all i salvaged was my map, russian tank graphics, aircraft ikons, and the new map graphics - the new L.40 ikon i worked on for 2 hours yesterday is gone! also the obwir is gone, so AGAIN i gotta start from scratch. it can't be simple!

[JagdFlanker]

i spent the whole day working on renaming the possum divisions (german roman numerals to real numbers, etc), and i figured this time for the soviets instead of using only the numbers i'd use the city names that are put in short form behind some of the numbers, except get rid of the number so to have the full name (eg. 29 Sibern Soviet Motorized Div is now Siberian Soviet Motorized Div) (9 character max). i painstakingly managed to get most of them, but i couldn't find any sort of comprehensive old USSR city list so there's a few i can't figure out what the full names are:

15 Seavsk Soviet Motorized Div
6 Changky Soviet Cavalry Div
96 Fabrsa Soviet Mountain Div
13 Dagstn Soviet Rifle Div
14 Krvsky Soviet Rifle Div
16 Kikzve Soviet Rifle Div

any ideas on what these cities are? or mabe they are names?

[m39 white death]

With regard to tanks, you guys are not accounting for two of the most important issues...the 3 man turret and radios. You are only looking at gun strength and armor thickness. I'd take whatever the attack strength is based on gun type and add 10% for a three man turret AND and additional 10% for any model that had a radio as standard equiptment. These are probably conservative estimates...you can argue that the 3 man turret and radio together double combat value, as the tank commander is freed from serving as a gunner and instead can coordinate with the other tanks in his platoon and identify threats and quickly move to another target, as well as better direct fire from the main gun.

[JagdFlanker]

in all honesty i would rather REDUCE the atk stats for not having the 3 man turret, as the gun stats are it's 'optimal power' and having less crew reduces the full potential of the gun (-1 atk?). radio i figured is covered by the experience levels, since it's a piece of equipment that COULD be retro-fitted to even old tanks, and radios were an 'organizing' tool to improve how the tanks were used during combat. a radio might be better represented by a unit having more experience, as radio was a tool to make better use of the individual tanks and the entire group in combat, and not having a radio made 'mismanaging' an attack much more likely, much like inexperience. i don't know the history of how radio was regarded/used by the sovs during the entire war, and i assume (with nothing to back up my claim) that 2 way radios were few and far between in 1941 but perhaps much more plentiful in 1944? the game trains all units up to a certain minimum level - german tanks (i think) are to 70 or 80, but the soviet tanks start 1941 training to 40, then 1942 to 45, and probrably so on (somebody correct me?). would the low starting experience and yearly increase in training for soviets be grigsby's way of taking into account the radio situation? the 3 man turret thing i agree with fully, but you have to talk me into the radio bonus. AND, mr M39, sounds like you volenteered to research this for me!! (hee hee [;)])

[Denniss]

AFAIK there's already a tactical bonus for german tank operations inside the game covering radios and better tactics .
Tank data should be purely based on gun and armor stats .

[hakan]

Sure, the 4 cru in the T-34 made the commander also the loader. This was a disadvantage compared to the German tanks. However, the T-34 is still considered as a very good tank; taking in consideration the durability, sloped front panzer, fire power and speed.

In the end there will be so much data to take in consideration. Speed, weight, armor, cru, slope, durability, radio, caliber and velocity of the gun, quality on the scopes, etc., etc. It seems almost impossible to get all the data correct. I guess the only way is to study a lot of literature from the War. Or just keep it simpel by aproximate the armor and the gun. (You may look at the data in the game Steel Panthers.)

[Denniss]

Some things I'd suggest :
Create a 5-point Hevy industry in Sofi to represent HI from Finland,Bulgaria,Hungary and Romania
-> Not possible to give them one point per country as they quickly rose to 5 point factories
Create a 5-point HI in either Prague or Vienna to represent czech/Austrian HI
Prag/Vienna should have a 10-point artillery factory each and the other four two or three with 10 points each
-> to represent their national production capabilities
-> factories raise relatively fast to 10 points so no 5 points each for the other four
Breslau should receive a 5-point HI to represent Schlesia HI

Prag/Vienna should have a Recon production of 10 points each and two 10-point factories for the other four
-> to represent either armord car production (Czech/austria) or national tank production

Some factories in germany should be reduced to 10 points all for recons
Artillery factories in mainland germany may be reduced by two or by giving two facories a 1942 arrival date
-> New arriving artillery factories should start with 1 or 5 but not with 10
HI should be reduced to 12 points in Berlin and 9 points each in the Ruhr area except Essen with 10(total per city)
New arriving HI factories should appear (one per year) with size 1 in every January except for 1944 with one factory in January and July
I'm still investigating some factory locations :
For example Do217 production seems to be located in the Munich area and Me109 was produced mainly in big factories in Vienna/Leipzig Area and Regensburg/Nuernberg Area and a somewhat smaller plant near Munich with some extra factories in Romania and others from Fighter emergency built program .

Edit : Some small things changed to get the germans started with ~75 HI - half the size the other side starts with

[JagdFlanker]

i'm using the possum factories, where the heavy industry is:

12 Berlin
9 Essen
9 Cologne
9 Wuppertal
4 Frankfurt
5 Mannheim
4 Stuttgart
6 Genoa
5 Hannover
3 Lodz
3 Warsaw
1 Karlsruhe (TTA:81)
1 Hamburg (TTA:95)
1 Breslau (TTA:110)
1 Kassel (TTA:130)

total 6/22/41 - 73 (possum starts at 68)

there are four 10 and four 5 german arty factories in 1941, with a pile that come later.

there are a total of five 10 recon fac's in 1941, and that's all germany gets through the entire war!

[Denniss]

HI :
Berlin 12 + Essen 10 + Koeln 9 + Wuppertal 9 + Frankfurt/M and Hannover/Wien/Breslau/Warsaw/Genoa/Sofia with 5 each
-> they are climbing relatively fast to a size-5 factory so I tried to avoid 3- or 4-size ones
Mannheim/Bremen/Leipzig/Danzig/Hamburg as size-1 replacement with 28/81/95/110/130 delay
-> HI may need some research to what was really active in 1941 and where

With Art I have 4x10 and 6x5 with 8x1 as new factories arriving from time to time
With Armored cards I have 8x10
-> Romania/Hungaria/Bulgaria and the Fins had limited tank production capabilities and I'll represent them with armored cars in Sofia
-> Austria and Czech had armored car factories as well producing for the germans

[Denniss]

A small suggestion : Change the FW190F from Fighter-Bomber to either ground attack or tank destroyer .
It was a heavily armored fighter bomber but specifically designed for the ground support role just as the Il2 Sturmovik

[JagdFlanker]

actually that seems like a good idea! tank busters can only interdict, so i'd use ground attack to allow airfield attacks as well. and it would fit in better production-wise since it upgrades from the Hs 129.

i'm a little behind sched because i didn't get a weekend (or a day off!) this week so hopefully i can finish up on tues/wed, which is SUPPOSED to be my next weekend (i don't want to work more than the 11 days in a row i already have!)

[JagdFlanker]

geez guys, sorry about the hold up but my work 3 weeks ago got a new private owner (instead of corperate) and he's really been working me into the ground - a total of 3 days off in the last 3 weeks(including christmas day!). and i might get 2 more days from here to mid january since he's going on vacation so with the rest of my running around i'm not getting any stinkin work done! what i'm going to try to do is just clean up what i have (it's done, i was basically smoothing it out, checking for errors) and post it as is and mabe you guys can play with it and see if everything looks good. the only big thing i have to do is re-do the L.40 47/32 ikon since it takes 2-3 hours to finally get it to look right. i'll see if i can get it posted by new years day!

i redid the armour for all the AFVs (several weeks ago) and there were some pleasingly surprising results - for example the T-70 went from def 5 to 6 (didn't you mention something like that before, deniss?), and really surprisingly the T-34/76 and the /76 M42 went down a def point each (but i gave it back to them both) i had to also give the Pz IVf an extra def point to give it the same power and cost of the Pz 38(t). gave the tiger a +1 def too to equal the panther, but both are -1 from their previous def. but my favorite change is that the sherman is down a point to 8, which sounds more right to me since that makes it equal to the Pz IVh/j!

happy holidays folks!

[Denniss]

Hmmmmmm ....

The JS2/3 defense looks a little strange - the JS2 should be a small improvement over the JS1. 19 looks one point too high as the Panther was able to kill a JS2. The 25 for the JS3 is too strong - should be matched to the 88L71 carrying german tanks including TD types. should be an easy punch at ranges lower than 1000m. JS3 armor was not much stronger than the King Tiger armor.
Elefant armor was not sloped very much so it's overrated
I am missing the improved late-version Panther G with a +1 in defense
Panther must be cheaper than Tiger by at least one point - a +1 for Tiger should be OK as well as a -1 for a Panther-G with increased and streamlined production
The Nashorn should get a defensive rating of 5 or all Marders a -1 (based on a bigger chassis with better armor than the older types).
JpzIV-70 had ~8cm of sloped armor and should be rated one point more than T34/85
Jagdpanther's armor is comparable to Tiger - at least frontal armor is much better (Thinner but much better sloped and thicker as Panther).
Have you added a +1 defense for low-silhuette TD like StuG and SU85/100 ?
The StuG-IIIg should be available 9/1942 (to represent the upgunning and uparmoring started with the F/8)

[JagdFlanker]

all i can say to all the above is according to the source i got all the calculations, the math doesn't lie.

hull*2 + superstructure*2 + turret*2 + mantlet, then divide by 7

since many vehicles do not have a turret or mantlet i would divide it by 5 or 6. i made no adjustments for a low silouette. AFVs with 60-79mm average side armour get +1 def. 80mm+ avg side armour get +2.

the 2 main sources i used are:

http://www.onwar.com/tanks/

http://www.panzerworld.net/
goto 'tables and statistics', then 'armour and arty', then finally 'relative armour thickness'
i just use the provided chart as opposed to the program since it's easier to use. i calculated ROUND armour as a 45 degree slope (adds 40%), since it is between 0 degrees and 90 degrees - i started calculating with doubling the armour for ROUND and it was way too much.

now, of course using only 1 source is dangerous but i wanted to do it quickly and this site has all the info a fanatic could ever want. i would like to use perhaps combat mission and steel panthers to do another set of calculations, then compare the 3 and take a median number, but i think it looks good enough for now since there's a lot of other work that i gotta do. if you can show me another set of stats to prove your point then i am all for changing it! all cannon stats were taken from combat mission, and i think the numbers would be much better rounded if i took a more formuladic approch instead of just the average penetration at 100m and 500m, as combat also often took place at 1000m as well! i would think

(100m*2)+(500m*2)+(1000m) divided by 5

could prove to be a better way of calculating that, especially for the 88mm. gee, i think i just found a way to waste away new years day, which is my last day off until mid january!

anyhow, i'm sorry but i did not include the panther G because the only armour difference is +10mm of armour in 2 out of 7 formula places, and for the sake of simplicity i would prefer to just give germany the best version of the panther. BTW the armour is already for the panther G, so the earlier (D) version would be -1 instead.

i have taken a reverse approach to production - cost is PURELY mathmatical based on the AFV power divided by 4; or i take the cost of a unit, divide it by it's power, then multiply that by the power of another AFV to get the cost of the second vehicle. PURE MATH - EVERY VEHICLE COSTS EXACTLY WHAT IT'S CAPABILITY IS! there is absolutly no shortcut or better AFV, because in relation to each other the all cost identical, with the cheaper vehicles almost always a very slightly better deal. but instead of basing production on AFV cost, there will be more factories of the 'cheaper' units like the Pz IV, Panther, and the T-34's, and less of the 'expensive' units like the tiger, KV's and JS's. we gotta be realistic about this - when yer playing PBEM and you want to win you will almost always take the best bang for your buck. take this 3.3 classic example:

---------------atk--def--pwr--cost
Pz-38(t)e-----6-----5----11---6
PzKpfw-IVe--7-----6----13---5
PzKpfw-IIIh--9-----7----16---5

looks like a no-brainer to me! but with these new prices i'v allowed a player (if they choose) to leave production alone and not get penalized for it. but in the end it allows you to relax when choosing things to produce and you may try different AFV's in different games. i know it's probrably hard to accept that the tiger and panther are the same price but unfortunatly they are just as powerful as each other in their own way (actually the panther is better!) so it would be up to you whether you want more defence or more offence. i personally play with heavy tank limits, and if you upgrade to either the panther or tiger you have to wait 4 weeks anyways! i guess what makes it hard is that in 3.3 med and heavy tanks are interchangable - this would be "fairer" in 3.2 and earlier where you HAD to build both types! no reason why the mod can't be used in 3.2 if you wanted too!

JS-1 - (115 hull+200 glacis)+(140*2)+(140*2)+140 divided by 7 = 15+2 side armour
JS-2 (1944) - (140*2)+(240*2)+(135*2)+140 divided by 7 = 17+2 side armour
JS-3 - (150*2)+(230+360)+(225*2)+285 divided by 7 = 23+2 side armour -> VERY ROUND AND ANGLED TANK!

Elefant - (245+205)+(220*2)+140 divided by 5 = 21+2 side armour

trust me, i was VERY generous giving the nashorn a 4:(35*2)+(15*2)+15 divided by 5 = 2.3

[JagdFlanker]

ok, so i finally figured out that when i originally posted the first original stats for all the tanks i had the gun penetration in cm and the front armour of all the AFV's in cm - adding side armour didn't make sense to me since the front was the thickest, and if the same gun is going to hit an enemy tank in the side the armour there is much thinner so it just doesn't count as anything. but i have since been convinced to add side armour and it now makes more sense to me since the rating is also an indication of it's toughness against air attacks. but funny i never thought until now that i'd have to also adjust the tank cannon ratings too to make up for the extra armour! so, i looked into it today using combat mission and used this formula

(100m*2)+(500m*2)+(1000m) divided by 4

- notice i added 5 digits, but i only divided by 4 - and got some 'more aggressive' results (basically added 20%). of course now i have to recalculate costs, etc so i'll just throw out some raw cannon data. because (for example) the 'ultimate' 88mm L/71 is now 26 i think i will add +1 armour to all AFV's to give them all a little more toughness - perhaps the T-34/76 and the /76 M42, Pz IVf might lose the previous +1 def bonus and i'l leave them as is, but i gotta look into it (it was a cost decision!).

100m/500m/1000m

50mm L/42 (Pz IIIg,h/j) - 71/61/55 = 8
50mm L/60 (Pz IIIj/60,l,m) ) - 94/77/61= 10
75mm L/24 (Pz IVd/e,f, StuG IIIb) - 61/60/55 = 7.4 [7]
75mm L/43 (Pz IVg, StuG IIIf) - 128/117/104 = 14.9 [14]
75mm L/48 (StuG IIIg, Hetzer, Pz IVh/j) - 131/119/106 = 15.2 [15]
75mm L/70 (Panther, JgPz IV/70) - 176/160/142 = 20.4 [20]
88mm L/56 (Tiger) - 154/142/129 = 18
88mm L/71 (Elefant, Nashorn, JagdPanther, KonigsTiger) - 228/211/191 = 26.7 [26]

45mm L/46 (BT-5, BT-7, T-26) - 37/33/29 = 4.2 [4]
45mm L/46 (T-70) - 63/41/31 = 6
75mm L/38 (Sherman) - 90/83/75= 10.5 [11]
76.2mm L/42 (All T-34/76, KV-1, KV-1S, SU-76) - 82/73/64 = 9.4 [9 for early, 10 for '42 on]
85mm L/55 (T-34/85, KV-85, JS-1, SU-85) - 120/110/97 = 13.9 [14]
100mm L/54 (SU-100) - 192/166/139 = 21.4 [21]
122mm L/22 (SU-122) - 106/106/106 = 13.3 [13]
122mm L/48 (JS-2, JS-3, JSU-122) - 182/160/136 = 20.5 [20]
152mm L/20 (KV-2) - 61/57/53 = 7.2 [8]
152mm L/29 (SU-152, JSU-152) - 160/146/130 = 18.6 [18]

all TD's will be -1 for having no turret.