Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

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Kevinugly
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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by Kevinugly »

ORIGINAL: Von Rom
ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

I've been trying to find Dietrich's statement that he allegedly made under oath. MacDonald doesn't mention it at all, the 'Jewish Library' link that I gave above only mentions that the US prosecuters tried to make use of it during the trial of Peiper & co. at Dachau and failed. Cole makes a meal of it in his 'Official History' but doesn't quote verbatim. I'm starting to wonder whether Dietrich ever said anything about the 'Terror' order whilst under oath since there surely would be a written record of it - it's one of the big war trials from the perspective of the American military after all.

It's interesting how some historians can be so clueless on certain issues.

It can indeed be difficult trying to track down facts on certain subjects.

Perhaps a new thread on this subject might be helpful.

Why? I've brought this back to a thread on Dietrich and this statement he allegedly made seems to be key to this discussion. If you've read books on his trial then surely you must know what is words actually were.
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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by dinsdale »

ORIGINAL: Von Rom
Dinsdale, with all due respect, you don't have a clue about what you're talking about.
Of course not, because no one who disagrees with you ever does [X(]
I am trying to be kind. But if this is the level of understanding about Dietrich's case, then no wonder we go around in circles. . .
No you're not, you've nailed your colours to the mast and are too proud to back down regardless of reality.
Hitler called a conference.

Dietrich was PERSONALLY at this conference.

Dietrich swore under oath that HE PERSONALLY heard Hitler give him and the other oficers present, the "wave of terror order".

Did you get that?
Cite please.
Dietrich swore under oath, and signed a statement, saying that he PERSONALLY received the order from Hitler.
cite please
books I have read on Dietrich's trial NEVER has the issue of his testimony being hearsay EVER been raised in over 50 years by ANY lawyers. Why? Because they know better.
As stated, there are many exceptions to the hearsay rule. That's probably too subtle for you though.

Citation of the transcript that Hitler personally ordered Dietrich would be nice, what would be nicer is if you had provided it before, or mentioned where it had been stated as I requested in my previous post.
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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
Von Rom
Few historians even mention the fact that Patton was even in Austria on May 7, 1945. D'Este leaves us with the false impression that Patton remained in Regensburg the whole time.


I think you have read too much Farago. You seem to read conspiracy into every turn. Patton (by your account) went on a jaunt to Austria with a visiting politician. Why would D'Este (or any other Historian) feel it had to be mentioned? He mentions that Patton met the Under Secretary at this time, why read anything into the fact he couldn't be bothered mentioning where? It is only important now because you're trying to prove Patton woke up (or was in Austrian airspace) in Austria when Dietrich surrendered. I can't believe D'Este omitted the fact the visit was in Austria in anticipation of taking my side in this argument.
Von Rom
If you will recall, this entire discussion started when Ironduke brought up Dietrich's surrender to Patton and he mentioned that Dietrich did not direct elements of the 6th SS panzer Army to surrender.


I am right. You just do not know enough of the circumstances of the surrender of 1st SS Panzer Corp et al to know this.
You seem to run two statements together.
Von Rom
I have also shown that Dietrich ORDERED several of his divisions west, where they surrendered to Third Army.


You make it sound as if Dietrich ordered his divisions westwards and ordered them to surrender. He did order them westwards, into concentration areas. The HJ and LSSAH were ordered (separately) to surrender at 6th SS Panzer Armee HQ by Dietrich's Deputy. Dietrich was not present. I believe he was then currently travelling to Zell am See where he arrived on 8th May to learn of the capitulation. In other words, some units of SS Panzer Armee were ordered to surrender before Dietrich even knew Germany had surrendered, because he was not at Sixth SS Panzer Armee HQ when the surrender was announced. This makes it difficult for him to order a surrender when he thought Germany was still fighting!
I have no doubt he was retreating westwards because he felt the end was near, but the demise of the SS Panzer Armee is not Dietrich's finest hour, as there are allegations he effectively disappeared for reasons of his own choosing to visit a theatre HQ to meet the Theatre Commander when his immediate Superior (Rendulic) was available. Rendulic gave the final order for the LSSAH to surrender (To the Russians, an order they disobeyed for obvious reasons).

Thus, Dietrich ordered his divisions west, but the actual surrender was ordered by other Officers.

IronDuke


Well, what can I say to the statements you make above [8|]

Now you're just arguning for the sake of argument. [8|]

Martin Blumeson edited Patton's papers and states it quite clearly that Patton was in Austria on May 7, 1945. Patterson, the Under Secretary, was with Patton.

The fact that D'Este does not mention Patton was in Austria tells me a lot about D'Este. Especially, when D'Este includes a large paragraph describing the love life of Patton's dog, Willie.

My rating of D'Este's book has gone from excellent to good, since I have found other omissions.
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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

I've been trying to find Dietrich's statement that he allegedly made under oath. MacDonald doesn't mention it at all, the 'Jewish Library' link that I gave above only mentions that the US prosecuters tried to make use of it during the trial of Peiper & co. at Dachau and failed. Cole makes a meal of it in his 'Official History' but doesn't quote verbatim. I'm starting to wonder whether Dietrich ever said anything about the 'Terror' order whilst under oath since there surely would be a written record of it - it's one of the big war trials from the perspective of the American military after all.

The whole trial was a mess, and Reynolds in his Peiper biography gives a good account of the mess, without revealing too much of the specifics of the courtroom.

The testimony Von Rom keeps quoting was important to the American case because it showed all troops were guilty of war crimes because all had received the order and understood it. The order (if accepted as evidence) demonstrates pre-meditation, and condemns those who receive and accept it. The irregularities that were alleged about the trial were quite extensive. Perhaps the key element that discredited the wave of terror order was that Peiper's men clearly took hundreds of prisoners both before and after the episode at Malmedy. In other words, they must have disobeyed Hitler's order more often than they obeyed it.

Reynolds says that all the statements were dictated by American interrogators, before being signed by the defendants. I suspect Dietrich said nothing of the sort, it was dictated for him. The evidence would not be accepted in a court of law, heresay or otherwise.

Some of the stuff is laughable. At one point, the US prosecutors persuaded a Belgian citizen to sign a dictated statement alleging his wife was killed by German tank fire. The statement never got read into the evidence, because before he signed it, the Belgian crossed out the words German tank and replaced them with American artillery.

I personally suspect it was a case of a German Panzer crewman suspecting or noticing an american or two at the back of the crowd set off across the fields in escape. (We know some Americans escaped quietly before the shooting started).
The US Soldiers understandably panicked as the shots rang out and began to run (Some witnesses reported the Officers ordered them to stand firm, perhaps realising what would happen). Trigger happy Waffen SS in the vicinity saw the panic and opened up, triggering more running and more shooting. Too many people escaped the massacre for me to be convinced it was wholly premeditated.

I don't buy the argument they were left behind by Peiper and picked up weapons before opening up on the next Waffen SS that came along. These were green troops if memory serves, who had just lost fifty of their number. They were an artillery unit, I seem to remember, and I can't believe they would have done this.

It is Peiper's responsibility. POWS are under the care of those that accept the surrender. I suspect in the general hurry of the advance, the men were not escorted or cared for properly and a tragic chain of events ensued.

In terms of a grudging admiration for Peiper, he seems to have lost all interest in anything when he was told at his interrogation some of his Camrades were providing evidence against him. It may not simply be a case of the Commanding Officer grimly accepting all responsibility. It's also difficult to warm to a man who served Heinrich Himmler on his personal staff for years and remained a NAZI until his death.

Regards,
IronDuke

I have looked at Reynolds book.

If this is what you are using as a reference, then no wonder, you are making such statements.
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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
ORIGINAL: Von Rom
ORIGINAL: dinsdale



A bit like someone using WW2 for dummies and being able to discuss with the depth and understanding you appear to possess for the subject.

Let's use this nice mickey mouse site for the general rule



That should do. Now, "acting on Hitlers orders" does not equal "I heard Hitler order me to..."

Now forgive me if there is something else you're basing your assumption on, but unless he's testifying that Hitler himself personally ordered him to carry out these orders, then this is classic hearsay. At no point during the thread though have I seen that used, althouth given the vebose nature of it, it's entirely possible I missed that quote.

Dinsdale, with all due respect, you don't have a clue about what you're talking about.

I am trying to be kind. But if this is the level of understanding about Dietrich's case, then no wonder we go around in circles. . .

The statement you gave above is HEARSAY.

Let me go through this again:

Hitler called a conference.

Dietrich was PERSONALLY at this conference.

Dietrich swore under oath that HE PERSONALLY heard Hitler give him and the other oficers present, the "wave of terror order".

Did you get that?

Dietrich PERSONALLY heard Hitler give him the order. Dietrich did not hear about Hitler's order from anyone else. Dietrich heard it directly from Hitler.

Dietrich swore under oath, and signed a statement, saying that he PERSONALLY received the order from Hitler.

What Dietrich gave in court is personal DIRECT TESTIMONY.

It is NOT hearsay.

In the books I have read on Dietrich's trial NEVER has the issue of his testimony being hearsay EVER been raised in over 50 years by ANY lawyers. Why? Because they know better.

Only you and GuitarJames have ever called Dietrich's direct testimony, hearsay.

You are digging a hole for yourself, although I'm not sure why I'm letting you in on this.
Let me go through this again:

Hitler called a conference.

Dietrich was PERSONALLY at this conference.

Dietrich swore under oath that HE PERSONALLY heard Hitler give him and the other oficers present, the "wave of terror order".

Did you get that?

Dietrich PERSONALLY heard Hitler give him the order. Dietrich did not hear about Hitler's order from anyone else. Dietrich heard it directly from Hitler.

Dietrich swore under oath, and signed a statement, saying that he PERSONALLY received the order from Hitler.

What Dietrich gave in court is personal DIRECT TESTIMONY.

Dietrich rescinded all his testimony at the Malmedy trial, claiming it had been extracted under duress. We know all the statements were dictated by the interrogators, and merely signed by the defendants. He wasn't alone. Whether heresay or not, given what we know of the circumstances of the arrest and interrogation, no court in the world (I take that back) no court in the democratic world would accept it as evidence today.

Ironduke

Show one source claiming that Dietrich's testimony was hearsay.
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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

Ah, you've read books on Dietrich's trial, what exactly did he say?

Sorry Kevinugly.

But it seems that we are back to having 3-4 people that I have to respond to again.

I would like very much to have a reasonable discussion on this subject with you. But I think that what I have been reading here, any debate on the topic of Dietrich will be a mixture of fantasy and ill-conceived facts and twisted logic.
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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by IronDuke_slith »

ORIGINAL: Von Rom
ORIGINAL: IronDuke
Von Rom
Few historians even mention the fact that Patton was even in Austria on May 7, 1945. D'Este leaves us with the false impression that Patton remained in Regensburg the whole time.


I think you have read too much Farago. You seem to read conspiracy into every turn. Patton (by your account) went on a jaunt to Austria with a visiting politician. Why would D'Este (or any other Historian) feel it had to be mentioned? He mentions that Patton met the Under Secretary at this time, why read anything into the fact he couldn't be bothered mentioning where? It is only important now because you're trying to prove Patton woke up (or was in Austrian airspace) in Austria when Dietrich surrendered. I can't believe D'Este omitted the fact the visit was in Austria in anticipation of taking my side in this argument.
Von Rom
If you will recall, this entire discussion started when Ironduke brought up Dietrich's surrender to Patton and he mentioned that Dietrich did not direct elements of the 6th SS panzer Army to surrender.


I am right. You just do not know enough of the circumstances of the surrender of 1st SS Panzer Corp et al to know this.
You seem to run two statements together.
Von Rom
I have also shown that Dietrich ORDERED several of his divisions west, where they surrendered to Third Army.


You make it sound as if Dietrich ordered his divisions westwards and ordered them to surrender. He did order them westwards, into concentration areas. The HJ and LSSAH were ordered (separately) to surrender at 6th SS Panzer Armee HQ by Dietrich's Deputy. Dietrich was not present. I believe he was then currently travelling to Zell am See where he arrived on 8th May to learn of the capitulation. In other words, some units of SS Panzer Armee were ordered to surrender before Dietrich even knew Germany had surrendered, because he was not at Sixth SS Panzer Armee HQ when the surrender was announced. This makes it difficult for him to order a surrender when he thought Germany was still fighting!
I have no doubt he was retreating westwards because he felt the end was near, but the demise of the SS Panzer Armee is not Dietrich's finest hour, as there are allegations he effectively disappeared for reasons of his own choosing to visit a theatre HQ to meet the Theatre Commander when his immediate Superior (Rendulic) was available. Rendulic gave the final order for the LSSAH to surrender (To the Russians, an order they disobeyed for obvious reasons).

Thus, Dietrich ordered his divisions west, but the actual surrender was ordered by other Officers.

IronDuke


Well, what can I say to the statements you make above [8|]

Now you're just arguning for the sake of argument. [8|]

Martin Blumeson edited Patton's papers and states it quite clearly that Patton was in Austria on May 7, 1945. Patterson, the Under Secretary, was with Patton.

The fact that D'Este does not mention Patton was in Austria tells me a lot about D'Este. Especially, when D'Este includes a large paragraph describing the love life of Patton's dog, Willie.

My rating of D'Este's book has gone from excellent to good, since I have found other omissions.
Well, what can I say to the statements you make above [8|]

Now you're just arguning for the sake of argument. [8|]

This tells me you're lost, it makes no sense, dodges the issue and is just designed to make it look as if you are exasperated rather than lost.
Martin Blumeson edited Patton's papers and states it quite clearly that Patton was in Austria on May 7, 1945. Patterson, the Under Secretary, was with Patton.

Why you said this I don't know, I wasn't questioning it, so I'm guessing its a straw man.
The fact that D'Este does not mention Patton was in Austria tells me a lot about D'Este. Especially, when D'Este includes a large paragraph describing the love life of Patton's dog, Willie.

My rating of D'Este's book has gone from excellent to good, since I have found other omissions.

So you keep saying (although not demonstrating). What I believe, is that when I started to point out Patton's problems, using the D'Este book you were initially so fond of, you went right off it and latched onto Farago instead because it was more Patton complimentary. This is fine, but it does leave me at a temporary disadvantage because I haven't read this Jounalist's work yet. I'm sure I will at some point, and then maybe we can return to this issue...[;)]

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by Kevinugly »

ORIGINAL: Von Rom
ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

Ah, you've read books on Dietrich's trial, what exactly did he say?

Sorry Kevinugly.

But it seems that we are back to having 3-4 people that I have to respond to again.

I would like very much to have a reasonable discussion on this subject with you. But I think that what I have been reading here, any debate on the topic of Dietrich will be a mixture of fantasy and ill-conceived facts and twisted logic.

But this is key, it seems that myself, Iron Duke and Dinsdale are all after the same thing, i.e. Dietrich's testimony. Supply us with a source for his full statement and the 'air can be cleared' so to speak. Since you have read books on his trial you must be able to provide us with something[:)]
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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: dinsdale
ORIGINAL: Von Rom
Dinsdale, with all due respect, you don't have a clue about what you're talking about.
Of course not, because no one who disagrees with you ever does [X(]
I am trying to be kind. But if this is the level of understanding about Dietrich's case, then no wonder we go around in circles. . .
No you're not, you've nailed your colours to the mast and are too proud to back down regardless of reality.
Hitler called a conference.

Dietrich was PERSONALLY at this conference.

Dietrich swore under oath that HE PERSONALLY heard Hitler give him and the other oficers present, the "wave of terror order".

Did you get that?
Cite please.
Dietrich swore under oath, and signed a statement, saying that he PERSONALLY received the order from Hitler.
cite please
books I have read on Dietrich's trial NEVER has the issue of his testimony being hearsay EVER been raised in over 50 years by ANY lawyers. Why? Because they know better.
As stated, there are many exceptions to the hearsay rule. That's probably too subtle for you though.

Citation of the transcript that Hitler personally ordered Dietrich would be nice, what would be nicer is if you had provided it before, or mentioned where it had been stated as I requested in my previous post.

Oh, brother [8|]

The exceptions to the hearsay rule apply in cases OTHER than DIRECT PERSONAL TESTIMONY.

The exception rule does NOT apply in cases such as Dietrich's situation, since his sworn testimony is about what he personally heard directly from Hitler.

Why do you continue to dig a hole that goes nowhere?
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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by IronDuke_slith »

ORIGINAL: Von Rom
ORIGINAL: IronDuke
ORIGINAL: Von Rom



Dinsdale, with all due respect, you don't have a clue about what you're talking about.

I am trying to be kind. But if this is the level of understanding about Dietrich's case, then no wonder we go around in circles. . .

The statement you gave above is HEARSAY.

Let me go through this again:

Hitler called a conference.

Dietrich was PERSONALLY at this conference.

Dietrich swore under oath that HE PERSONALLY heard Hitler give him and the other oficers present, the "wave of terror order".

Did you get that?

Dietrich PERSONALLY heard Hitler give him the order. Dietrich did not hear about Hitler's order from anyone else. Dietrich heard it directly from Hitler.

Dietrich swore under oath, and signed a statement, saying that he PERSONALLY received the order from Hitler.

What Dietrich gave in court is personal DIRECT TESTIMONY.

It is NOT hearsay.

In the books I have read on Dietrich's trial NEVER has the issue of his testimony being hearsay EVER been raised in over 50 years by ANY lawyers. Why? Because they know better.

Only you and GuitarJames have ever called Dietrich's direct testimony, hearsay.

You are digging a hole for yourself, although I'm not sure why I'm letting you in on this.
Let me go through this again:

Hitler called a conference.

Dietrich was PERSONALLY at this conference.

Dietrich swore under oath that HE PERSONALLY heard Hitler give him and the other oficers present, the "wave of terror order".

Did you get that?

Dietrich PERSONALLY heard Hitler give him the order. Dietrich did not hear about Hitler's order from anyone else. Dietrich heard it directly from Hitler.

Dietrich swore under oath, and signed a statement, saying that he PERSONALLY received the order from Hitler.

What Dietrich gave in court is personal DIRECT TESTIMONY.

Dietrich rescinded all his testimony at the Malmedy trial, claiming it had been extracted under duress. We know all the statements were dictated by the interrogators, and merely signed by the defendants. He wasn't alone. Whether heresay or not, given what we know of the circumstances of the arrest and interrogation, no court in the world (I take that back) no court in the democratic world would accept it as evidence today.

Ironduke

Show one source claiming that Dietrich's testimony was hearsay.

I wasn't attempting to demonstrate it was heresay, merely that it wasn't anything, because he told the court at the trial it was extracted under duress and he was retracting it. I was pointing out that the statement
Von Rom
Dietrich swore under oath, and signed a statement, saying that he PERSONALLY received the order from Hitler.

was not true, because he rescinded the statement. This statement was only true for the period between his interrogation and the trial. You did not seem to be aware of this, as you never mentioned it. I was trying to help [:(].

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by dinsdale »

ORIGINAL: Von Rom
Oh, brother [8|]

The exceptions to the hearsay rule apply in cases OTHER than DIRECT PERSONAL TESTIMONY.
Except that the question is what Dietrich's testimony actually was. That question appears to be beyond you.
Why do you continue to dig a hole that goes nowhere?

In your arrogance and rudeness you are ignoring the question which has lingered now for several posts. Where is Dietrich's testimony as that's the issue here.

What exactly did Dietrich say, is that too complicated for you to follow?
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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
ORIGINAL: Von Rom
ORIGINAL: IronDuke



I think you have read too much Farago. You seem to read conspiracy into every turn. Patton (by your account) went on a jaunt to Austria with a visiting politician. Why would D'Este (or any other Historian) feel it had to be mentioned? He mentions that Patton met the Under Secretary at this time, why read anything into the fact he couldn't be bothered mentioning where? It is only important now because you're trying to prove Patton woke up (or was in Austrian airspace) in Austria when Dietrich surrendered. I can't believe D'Este omitted the fact the visit was in Austria in anticipation of taking my side in this argument.



I am right. You just do not know enough of the circumstances of the surrender of 1st SS Panzer Corp et al to know this.
You seem to run two statements together.



You make it sound as if Dietrich ordered his divisions westwards and ordered them to surrender. He did order them westwards, into concentration areas. The HJ and LSSAH were ordered (separately) to surrender at 6th SS Panzer Armee HQ by Dietrich's Deputy. Dietrich was not present. I believe he was then currently travelling to Zell am See where he arrived on 8th May to learn of the capitulation. In other words, some units of SS Panzer Armee were ordered to surrender before Dietrich even knew Germany had surrendered, because he was not at Sixth SS Panzer Armee HQ when the surrender was announced. This makes it difficult for him to order a surrender when he thought Germany was still fighting!
I have no doubt he was retreating westwards because he felt the end was near, but the demise of the SS Panzer Armee is not Dietrich's finest hour, as there are allegations he effectively disappeared for reasons of his own choosing to visit a theatre HQ to meet the Theatre Commander when his immediate Superior (Rendulic) was available. Rendulic gave the final order for the LSSAH to surrender (To the Russians, an order they disobeyed for obvious reasons).

Thus, Dietrich ordered his divisions west, but the actual surrender was ordered by other Officers.

IronDuke


Well, what can I say to the statements you make above [8|]

Now you're just arguning for the sake of argument. [8|]

Martin Blumeson edited Patton's papers and states it quite clearly that Patton was in Austria on May 7, 1945. Patterson, the Under Secretary, was with Patton.

The fact that D'Este does not mention Patton was in Austria tells me a lot about D'Este. Especially, when D'Este includes a large paragraph describing the love life of Patton's dog, Willie.

My rating of D'Este's book has gone from excellent to good, since I have found other omissions.
Well, what can I say to the statements you make above [8|]

Now you're just arguning for the sake of argument. [8|]

This tells me you're lost, it makes no sense, dodges the issue and is just designed to make it look as if you are exasperated rather than lost.
Martin Blumeson edited Patton's papers and states it quite clearly that Patton was in Austria on May 7, 1945. Patterson, the Under Secretary, was with Patton.

Why you said this I don't know, I wasn't questioning it, so I'm guessing its a straw man.
The fact that D'Este does not mention Patton was in Austria tells me a lot about D'Este. Especially, when D'Este includes a large paragraph describing the love life of Patton's dog, Willie.

My rating of D'Este's book has gone from excellent to good, since I have found other omissions.

So you keep saying (although not demonstrating). What I believe, is that when I started to point out Patton's problems, using the D'Este book you were initially so fond of, you went right off it and latched onto Farago instead because it was more Patton complimentary. This is fine, but it does leave me at a temporary disadvantage because I haven't read this Jounalist's work yet. I'm sure I will at some point, and then maybe we can return to this issue...[;)]

IronDuke


What I wrote above means is, that you simply have nothing concrete to say, and you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

If it continues I will simply ignore your posts as I have done in the past.
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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by IronDuke_slith »

Now you have my attention.
I have looked at Reynolds book.

If this is what you are using as a reference, then no wonder, you are making such statements.

You make a habit of these sort of statements, I think it's a debating tactic designed to make people think something is clearly wrong with something, but put in such a way you don't have to prove it.

Firstly, which of Mr Reynold's books are you referring to? If you have read it, you presumably can tell me the title. (If you can't, a quick scan of Amazon should give you a title to give me).

Secondly, what did you think was wrong with it? I'm guessing you noticed factual errors, could you name them? I'd happily accept just one example off the top of your head at this stage.

Thirdly, what did the reviews at Amazon tell you about this book? I know you've used Amazon reviews for Farago and D'Este et al. What do they say about Reynolds?

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: Kevinugly
ORIGINAL: Von Rom
ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

I've been trying to find Dietrich's statement that he allegedly made under oath. MacDonald doesn't mention it at all, the 'Jewish Library' link that I gave above only mentions that the US prosecuters tried to make use of it during the trial of Peiper & co. at Dachau and failed. Cole makes a meal of it in his 'Official History' but doesn't quote verbatim. I'm starting to wonder whether Dietrich ever said anything about the 'Terror' order whilst under oath since there surely would be a written record of it - it's one of the big war trials from the perspective of the American military after all.

It's interesting how some historians can be so clueless on certain issues.

It can indeed be difficult trying to track down facts on certain subjects.

Perhaps a new thread on this subject might be helpful.

Why? I've brought this back to a thread on Dietrich and this statement he allegedly made seems to be key to this discussion. If you've read books on his trial then surely you must know what is words actually were.

Unfortunately, at the moment I think with some of the questionable statements being made, that it will be difficult to have a sane discussion about Dietrich.

I mean, people can't even distinquish between direct testimony and hearsay.
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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: Kevinugly
ORIGINAL: Von Rom
ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

Ah, you've read books on Dietrich's trial, what exactly did he say?

Sorry Kevinugly.

But it seems that we are back to having 3-4 people that I have to respond to again.

I would like very much to have a reasonable discussion on this subject with you. But I think that what I have been reading here, any debate on the topic of Dietrich will be a mixture of fantasy and ill-conceived facts and twisted logic.

But this is key, it seems that myself, Iron Duke and Dinsdale are all after the same thing, i.e. Dietrich's testimony. Supply us with a source for his full statement and the 'air can be cleared' so to speak. Since you have read books on his trial you must be able to provide us with something[:)]


No, dinsdale was talking about trying to understand what hearsay means.

Ironduke is arguing over anything he can find, for the sake of argument.

You seem to want to look at the trial of Dietrich.

But again, it's farcical what has been posted here recently.
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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by IronDuke_slith »

What I wrote above means is, that you simply have nothing concrete to say, and you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

If it continues I will simply ignore your posts as I have done in the past.

But I do have something concrete to say, I was asking for your critique of D'Este. You have posted many reviews revealing this to be a well respected work in the past, and if you now think it flawed, (and you keep saying it is) do you not owe it to this forum to explain why, after your previous comments recommended it. Some of the Forum readers may be planning to read this after the recent Patton threads and should be forewarned of any innaccuracies, errors of interpretation etc.

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by Kevinugly »

I think we can have a perfectly sane discussion about Dietrich if we know more or less exactly what he did or didn't say. At the moment all we have is conjecture (better than 'hearsay' I feel[:)]) as to a sworn statement (contents unclear) that appears to have been later withdrawn as it was apparently made whilst under duress.
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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by IronDuke_slith »

Von Rom
Unfortunately, at the moment I think with some of the questionable statements being made, that it will be difficult to have a sane discussion about Dietrich.

I mean, people can't even distinquish between direct testimony and hearsay.

But it isn't direct testimony, because he rescinded it. It it was direct testimony, he would have testified at his trial to it's veracity. Instead, at his trial, he said "Sorry, they got all that out of me under duress, and I made it up". How is this direct testimony?

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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
ORIGINAL: Von Rom
ORIGINAL: IronDuke



You are digging a hole for yourself, although I'm not sure why I'm letting you in on this.



Dietrich rescinded all his testimony at the Malmedy trial, claiming it had been extracted under duress. We know all the statements were dictated by the interrogators, and merely signed by the defendants. He wasn't alone. Whether heresay or not, given what we know of the circumstances of the arrest and interrogation, no court in the world (I take that back) no court in the democratic world would accept it as evidence today.

Ironduke

Show one source claiming that Dietrich's testimony was hearsay.

I wasn't attempting to demonstrate it was heresay, merely that it wasn't anything, because he told the court at the trial it was extracted under duress and he was retracting it. I was pointing out that the statement
Von Rom
Dietrich swore under oath, and signed a statement, saying that he PERSONALLY received the order from Hitler.

was not true, because he rescinded the statement. This statement was only true for the period between his interrogation and the trial. You did not seem to be aware of this, as you never mentioned it. I was trying to help [:(].

Ironduke

ID:

You seem to be confusing several issues here. That is why having a sane debate with some of you is an exercise in futility.

Dietrich's initial sworn statement is direct testimony. It's not hearsay.

Whether he retracted his statement later or not is immaterial to his initial sworn statement - which was NOT hearsay.

Many felons and murderers later retract their initial confessions. That's nothing new.

What was under discussion was the meaning and use of hearsay as it applied to Dietrich.
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RE: Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich

Post by Kevinugly »

Well for the purposes of this discussion Dietrich's statement is hearsay since nobody seems to know what it actually was.
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