Just to kill the Pilot Pools too low thread

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

IMHO the idea/recipe Russell ("Mogami") gave us for on-map training is _GREAT_ one and both sides should use it (BTW, even in UV in my PBEMs I always had 66% of squadrons on front and 33% training)!


But now something "completely" different... [;)]


Do you guys remember one argument I brought few months ago in similar pilot training thread?


In short, the problem as I see it is that there is one small issue with on map pilot training.

Even if you have squadron set to 0% training the EXP of the pilots in it will rise over time (like Michael Wood explained this is because they can gain info from experienced pilot - there is dice roll and several checks as he told us) to some predetermined value - presumably 55-60 EXP.


Example:

You have 27 planes in squadron together with 1 great pilot (let's say EXP 85) and 26 green recruits (let's say EXP 20).

Even if you set that squadron to 0% training (i.e. no flying at all) the green pilots would gain EXP point in time and eventually they would all reach 55-60 EXP values.


IMHO this should _NOT_ happen!

IMHO EXP should only rise this way to some pre determined value (let's say 40) and after that EXP should only rise if they actually fly training or combat missions.

IMHO this is only fair because supply should be expended in training (when flying), aircraft should be prone to accidents and pilots should and could be able to die during training.


Leo "Apollo11"

[Nikademus]

the accelerated non-training (and training) 0-55 exp facet was addressed. Pilots can still gain exp without being set to 'training' but it will still take approx 6 months or more to bring a newbie up to trained (but green) status. I believe training mission does accelerate this a bit but not all that much. It remains worthwhile to set units to training

[brisd]

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
Anybody but me interested in having an end put to this drivel?

I'm still hoping to find out what on earth a piolet is, haven't even managed to find one in my copy of WitP, maybe I should demand a refund?

Nope, I think it is a useful discussion, IGNORE works great if you don't like their drivel (like I have p. for example).

I can see both points of the main arguments, Japan didn't have enough trained pilots at the start of the war to fill out her squadrons and the situation deteriated from there (from my reading of history). Mogami has a neat solution to this problem that allows players to take control of their pilots training and it seems to work. My problem is having unexperienced pilots showing up in my air units even when I selected "NO replacements".

[anarchyintheuk]

1) We do nothing..well Matrix does nothing....The Complaints continue.

I like this idea.

2) We Adopt this Pool System:

Non-ready pilot pool value 1942 = 60
Non ready pilot pool value 1943 = 50
Non ready pilot pool value 1944 = 25-30
Non ready pilot pool value 1945 = 10-20

So i can waste my entire ijn air force 2x over in '42 and my only limitation on getting back 60 xp level pilots is the amount of aircraft that i can produce? That's ridiculous. All of that training then costs Japan nothing. As Japan i already get a huge break with the "oil" that is produced in china and japan. Historically they were coal deposits, but through the magic of this production system coal is turned into fuel and av-gas (in the form of supplies).

3) We creat a Training Airforce, with at least two types of generic training aricraft (like the K5Y) and they are only capable of Kamakise combat mishions, other wise just training, one for the Army and one type for the Navy. The players must build these in factorys, Fead them in the field, and wory over them. The Resources and the Ecenmoy will nead to be scaled to provide for them. Their Squadrons will nead to arive as they did historicaly or the players will nead to be able to actualy form suadrons on map.

As long as all those pilots start at 0 xp it sounds good. Maybe as i get later into my game (9/42 atm) i'll see if i run out of front line units that i use for training. Don't see that happening atm.

[Lemurs!]

Actually, I would say:

4. Create an accurate as possible list of PILOTS being trained at war start. I don't care about expansion, etc it is already historically expanding.
Decide on an upper limit. 80? Now decide how long 80 takes. Then, get rid of free pilots. Now, as you need and or want pilots in your pool pull them out of training and add them to the pool. The percentage of training is where they start exp wise. Could be bell'ed to make 50-60 a little easier than 30 or 80.

Next thing. Japan in 1940 produced 1,000,000 barrels of sweet, light crude. Manchuria produced 1,000,000 barrels of not so sweet crude. Shantung produced 300,000 barrels or so. Japan's synthetic industry was already running and producing more than 2,000,000 barrels of oil. And increasing.

Mike

[Lemurs!]

I would also like refineries to be sepperate from factories as oil was almost unused in Japanese industry in 1941. Aviation fuel could then be its own item but this is pretty unlikely to change so we need to work with the system we have.

Mike

[esteban]

I would like to suggest a way out of this debate.

Why don't we just create a "training command" withdrawl option. Like the current "disband" and "withdraw" commands, except that the squadron in question returns 1 to 5 days later, instead of 90 days, and it bypasses the pilot replacement pool when it returns, and is staffed entirely with UNTRAINED replacement pilots (the same quality you get when you overdraw your replacement pool).

That way, you can actually simulate real training squadrons, the Japanese do not have to wait 90 days for their units disbanded for training purposes to return (a 90 days return for training seems too long), the number of trained Japanese pilot replacements goes up if the Japanese player is willing to train them, and the Japanese player is also constrained by the fact that if they suffer a lot of casulaties, they will have to press poorly trained pilots into battle.

The Allies could use this approach as well, but in their case, with their larger "pre-trained" pilot replacement pools, and their more durable aircraft, they would have less need to do so.

I agree that the current pilot replacement system is flawed. First, there are too few replacements for the Japanese. Second, the replacement quality drops to an average of 1/2 the trained experience level once the pool is overdrawn.

However, I think the numbers of added replacements (hundreds per month) that are being thrown around in this thread are unreasonable. If we allow disbanded units to return rapidly, with untrained pilots, then we can really simulate training squadrons where units are kept in the rear areas for some months in order to train up.

Changing the current replacement system seems pretty difficult. Changing the algorithms so that the untrained replacements you get when you overdraw the pilot pools enter with a more realistic decline in skills (From say, 65 exp down to about 10) seems to be difficult. Adding dozens of training squadrons or pilot schools to the existing economic system would at the very least add unneeded additional complexity to the game, and might require a ton of coding.

So, we just add a new withdrawl option, let the withdrawn units return rapidly, but with rookie pilots, just out of ground school, and then it is the responsibility of the owner to train them back up, simulating "flight training".

[Lemurs!]

Esteban,

That is one of the best ideas i have read here!
Well thought out and working with the system.
Thank you for providing this idea.

Mike

[anarchyintheuk]

Where did you get those stats? About the only thing that I can find is that Japan produced about 7% of her oil needs prior to the outbreak of war. Unfortunately, it gives no numbers concerning total usage or production. Any help would be appreciated.

[Lemurs!]

Atlas of world Economic Production, Cambridge, 1939

Empires in the Balance, Wilmot,H(?)

World Oil Production, Internal Documents, US State Department, 1938

Anything by Paul Kennedey is a good start.

Rand McNally Resource Atlas, 1939 et al

Mike

[anarchyintheuk]

vielen danke!

[Oznoyng]

I'm a convert to Mogami-ism...

I think the on map training is fine. The only thing I might change is to add training Daitai to the OOB, just in case I can actually use them.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: brisd
IGNORE works great if you don't like their drivel.

Problem is that I have just as much business being here as "they" (including "you") do. Drivel is as drivel does, and if it is "drivel," it needs to be called as much - by those who have just as much business talking sense as those who talk drivel.

This "debate" is one-sided. Those who want change to favor the Japanese are vocal. Those who see the game as well designed in this regard are silent (and probably playing the game instead of talking about it).

[Brady]

I mentioned the fact that prety much all of Japans Industry ran on Coal and her Civilain ecenomy use very little oil before a few times in various posts. I also mentioned that Japan had her own Coal, while not enough she did have a fair amount in country. Howeaver as the Ecenomy was already abstracted to the point that it was...namely not realy bearing a close resembalance to the reality of the time...at least not in the details...It was too late.

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
This "debate" is one-sided. Those who want change to favor the Japanese are vocal. Those who see the game as well designed in this regard are silent (and probably playing the game instead of talking about it).

Nonsense. Look at the thread on surface combat… it was an Allied task force that didn’t achieve ‘expected results’. Many of those involved in this ‘one-sided argument’ would be interested in seeing a tweak that would better simulate reality even if it does… who cares.

I wouldn’t mind seeing either a house rule or a tweak to China. Japan seems to be able to operate with way too much freedom in 1941/42. Increased garrison requirements might be an option… I don’t care that it hurt the Japanese… the present system doesn’t reflect the historical operational restrictions well enough. A tweak ‘might’ be needed… but as was said somewhere else…


ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
I am "against" opening up a new can of worms full of bugs due to enabling something that is completely untested and against the design of the game. I am also "againt" wasting programmers time implementing things that don't make game play better. Anything that doesn't improve the game play strikes me as time taken away from things that could improve the game play.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Both sides of this argument have some valid points. Thats what makes the issue so thorny. Brady however (IMHO....no flame intended) hurts his case by repeatedly pointing to generalized estimated statistics on how many Japanese pilots "graduated" in total from the schools. This is all very nice (and similar info can be gleaned from Pettie and Bergerud) however it does not answer the simple question of "how well trained were they at graduation?"

There is no question in my mind nor disputing that the Japanese pilot program broke down under the strain of an attrition war and that as that war continued and shortages of fuel began to be felt, that the "graduation threshold" for the schools became lower and lower until by 44-45 a "graduate" would be lucky to have a dozen or more actual flight hours in the cockpit of a plane. (Besides the combat results....one can see this by the fact that by late war 'op losses/accidents' began exceeding 'combat losses' in the Japanese air force) US training hours declined as well....but never to the degree faced by the Japanese, and there was no shortage of fuel or front line aircraft to prevent those pilots from getting behind the cockpit for advanced training and familiarization. Often a 1944 Japanese graduates first real experience in a front line fighter aircraft was 'after' graduation, and there is a BIG difference between flying a trainer and flying a high preformance fighter plane (mentioned in Bergerud)

As early as late 1942, Japanese pilot veterans were commenting negatively on the quality of the replacements being seen. This viewpoint would appear cooberated by feedback from some USN marine/navy pilots as well who fought over Guadalcanal and the carriers. Sometimes they'd encounter a Zero pilot who instead of utilizing their machine to counter their attack moves, instead the pilot would "freeze"....a classic newbie mistake......one that especially in a Zero, bereft of armor or self sealers, might often become that newbie's last mistake. (Allied newbies were suspectible to the same thing of course....but had a better statistical chance of surviving)

Now the above needs considerable qualification. Does this mean that said replacement pilots being referred to too with critisism by both sides of the fence are half trained exp 20-30 pilots? Maybe....but personally i think it probably refers to a greenie with more or less complete basic training who simply had not had time to become more proficient in a front line unit. In the Japanese viewpoint especially i can see the disproval given the strictness of the pre-war program. At the very least....graduates of that program would probably not, in game terms come out of training with anything less than exp=70....some of the more giftd at 75-80. Combined with rigorous operational level training and combat....you get to exp=85 and above....elite pilots. The comments on the Japanese side come mainly from this crop of "graduates"....and so IMO...its inevitable that they would view the wartime "graduates" with a little bit of disdain (not to mention worry since their own survival may depend on those men)

A similar conclusion can be made from the Allied side. They too had their share of "newbie" experiences that of itself doesnt' mean the pilot in question who got his tail peppered by a Zero (but lived to tell of it) was a half trained exp=30 pilot who espeically under Allied doctrine...would have NO business being on the front lines to begin with. An exp 50 or 55 pilot is just as likely to make a newbie mistake. I've always said this many times in the past having been playing Grigsby games since the 1980's.....the 0-99 exp scale has been around for a LONG time and exp 50-55 has almost universally been considered a "fully trained but wet behind the ears" level. Once you get to the upper tier of values you progress from extremely well trained...(60-65) to "veteran (70+) to elite (80-85+) Anything in the 90's is truely elite (and all but irreplaceable in this game)

Same token.....going into the lower tier....you get progressively more incomplete or inadequate levels of training. 20-30 in my mind is at best...half trained (in terms of basic flight training) and yes....that pilot under normal circumstances has no business being on the front lines. The Allies were never in a position to have to do this....but the Japanese increasingly were. Marianas is in my mind a prime example. Yes the Japanese were still bound to lose given the numbers they faced and the fact that they were outclassed in the air and facing record levels of AA......but it was the incomplete and inadequate training levels that made it a "Turkey Shoot". I think the pilot accounts....particular that of many Japanese pilots taking everything they had just to maintain formation much less fight speaks for itself.

Ok....enough of a novel for everyone....? still with me? [;)]

Here's where it gets more tricky.

WitP is an operational level game that allows both sides complete control of their frontline units. Mogami and Frag make valid points that if you dont want half trained pilots on the front lines, that it is *up to the player* to make sure this happens. He or she does that by rotating his airgroups and not simply committing everything to the theater or theaters of action. Even the Allies cant get away with that. Thats what the training mission is in the game for and people need to remember that this game runs in *****24 hour turns******* Things like that take time. Even under wartime abbreviation....the USN pilot program tended to take Joe Pilotwannabee a full 6 months at a miminum to bring them fully trained status (exp 50-60)

Now....on the other side of the argument.....a valid point has been made that players cant control *where* their precious small crop of fully trained or (in the IJN case) really really well trained pilots go (if you compare the starting exp level with the JAAF rating) The most recent patch has provided a partial solution to this problem by allowing the player to far more easily control which air units get any replacements at all. Yes it does require a bit more of a micromanagement but thats the price paid for the level of control that this game awards us with. If a player wants to maximize where his pilots (and planes for those types not avail in huge quantities) the best tactic is to set most/all of his airgroups to "do not accept replacements"....particularily those on active fronts. If a unit becomes depleated after repeated sorties/combats...you have two choices...set to "accept replacements" and risk getting unfinished pilots (or using up your pool of ready pilots) while still at the "Front" or, as was more common in historical practice...you rotate that group out and refit/reorg it, allowing time to integrate the new pilots into the org. This is what Japanese carrier divisions had to do after heavy combat.

Some players have complained about "pace" in this game. Tactics such as setting most/all one's airgroups to 'accept replacements' is part of the reason why IMO. In real life....few airgroups (and this was certainly the case in the SoPac) had their full OOB's. In the game it is all too convienient to just set your active units to accept replacements and let the computer auto fill your combat units. It makes for a nice picture......till you start examining the pilot roster and see that you've diluted your well oiled machine with newbie pilots at under exp 50. Such a pace is not something the Japanese machine in particular is not going to be able to sustain long...at least not without sending children out to fight. Here Frag is 100% correct in that there is no real limit on the overall "pilot pool". Neither side will ever suffer for lack of pilots. What they will suffer....and player choice has a big impact here is in the quality of those pilots.

However if players were more caring of their airgroups and become more 'miserly', not overcommitting and overspending them....this will at least in part reduce the "problem" as it is perceived. I've been playing around with this in a 1942 start scenerio (post Midway) and to a degree it is working well. However a big component of my success is that i'm not being forced to commit to an attrition war with the AI as Allied and i ***take breaks**** i.e. just because i whipped AI butt doesnt' mean i immediately go on to the next offensive just because i can. My carrier groups were not decimated for example, but they did take some losses. Right now i have them at Truk.....accepted replacements and am now setting them to "Training" to bring up those half trained wannabees to at least full proficiancy (exp 50+) More a less a stunted Mogami pilot training type program. More often that not...players with godlike control tend to overflow front line bases with combat airgroups and commit themselves to offensive operations that dwarve the actual numbers employed during that year historically. Under such circumstances, esp if your the Japanese player...i would expect the exp curve to fall even faster.

Now, in support of Brady and co., I found though that even here its almost impossible to prevent those half trained pilots from creeping into many Japanese units that i authorized to accept replacements. (and just to throw some oil on the controversey.....i experimented in this game by messing with the replacement rates and pools [:D] ) So we come at last back to the central issue. How soon should pilots, particularily Japanese pilots come in at what i myself consider a 1944 level of "graduation" (ie. exp 20-30 congrats your a pilot...now go get em tiger!) Increasing the production rate is not necesarily an answer to me....because that pool has it's exp level fixed (within up to +/-9 points) and for the IJN its rather high and generous. the IJAAF is of less concern as "graduated" pilots are in the fully green catagory (55). A system i would prefer would be a variable "general pilot replacement level based on year....the same as that which governs airgroup reinforcements.

example:

Non-ready pilot pool value 1942 = 50
Non ready pilot pool value 1943 = 40
Non ready pilot pool value 1944 = 25-30
Non ready pilot pool value 1945 = 10-20 (banzai!!!!!!!!!!)

all the above has the same (+/-) variable of up to 9 exp points as in the current system.

Under such a system...the "high value graduate" pool for want of a better term (and terminology is another thing that is causing this rift of opinion....that and misinterpretation what what the pilot pool in this game is) by definition cannot be too high because it is fixed and in some cases (USN and IJN) it spits out very highly qualified aviators so under this definition, increasing the "high value graduate" pool to say 100 a month or more would only produce ahistorical results...particularily for the Japanese.

Anyway thats my take. I can understand the frustration of Japan players who see their precious small pool of pilots go out to fill out or replace a Topsy transport datai back in Saigon but at the same time....thanks to the latest patch, its fairly painless to prevent this from happening by paying close attention too and controlling who gets replacements and when and where. Under the current system, it may be that at the very least we should increase the starting pool.... but not the *rate* in order to better represent the Japanese "curve" that decended from pre-war elite down to competant, down to competant but somewhat wet behind the ears, finally decending to "yippie i took off without cracking up!" Even then the Japanese player will still have to micromanage to ensure that this pool isn't too quickly depleated by trying to do everything at once...(fill out existing units.....conduct offensives....replace losses during said offensives) This dilemmna is nothing short of historical in my mind. However in this i'd agree with Brady that the decline as seen should not be so quick, but with the cavet that this is so heavily influenced by *player strategy* and in that i agree with Frag and Mogami's viewpoint.

Gee....how's that for sitting on both sides of the fence. Maybe i should run for Pres of the US [;)]

Nikademus,

I am thinking about increasing the Japanese beginning pilot pool for my scenario 32 to fix the navy trained pilot pool drain controversy in the first few turns. i see you recommend doing only this to fix the navy trained pilot drain. what would you recommend increasing it to???